Z4M / E46 M3 - Are they just not that fast?
Discussion
robbiekhan said:
Crackie said:
Evolve are good, a 20hp gain is great. What were the before and after figures ? I had a lightened M3 EVO (S52) mapped by them, they also fitted Simota induction and Supersprint Cat Back. Loved that car, and the new 7900rpm rev limit; S52/S54 have a character, charisma and throttle response missing from forced induction engines. Edited by Crackie on Tuesday 7th June 07:58
Before/After graph:
Steven_RW said:
S54 engine is very fuel fussy. V-power or Tesco 99 or expect it to retard and never really "want" to go to 8,000 rpm which it should do if running right.
Plus with solid tappets you need to adjust/replace the shims which is part of the inspection service but is rarely done. You know if it was done properly if they keep your car overnight so the clearances can be measured with a completely cold engine, they find some issues and then you wait another day for delivery of the new shims and the morning for them to be replaced. It rarely, if ever, is done without you specifically challenging the dealership.
All in all that adds up to lost BHP.
My E46 M3 and my Z4M both were "relatively" quick up to 100mph, but where they are better, when comparing to other cars, is when you top 3rd, hold it through 4th and do not lift to 8,000 (140 mph) and go for 5th. That is their better comparative area as they hold well to the speed limiter in 5th.
RW
Very true - mine runs dreadfully on 95 RON. 97 (Esso) or 99 (Tesco) seem to be identical and make a huge difference.Plus with solid tappets you need to adjust/replace the shims which is part of the inspection service but is rarely done. You know if it was done properly if they keep your car overnight so the clearances can be measured with a completely cold engine, they find some issues and then you wait another day for delivery of the new shims and the morning for them to be replaced. It rarely, if ever, is done without you specifically challenging the dealership.
All in all that adds up to lost BHP.
My E46 M3 and my Z4M both were "relatively" quick up to 100mph, but where they are better, when comparing to other cars, is when you top 3rd, hold it through 4th and do not lift to 8,000 (140 mph) and go for 5th. That is their better comparative area as they hold well to the speed limiter in 5th.
RW
To add my tuppence, no it's not particularly quick unless you rev it, but it will pull from 1000rpm in high gears without complaining if you want to. There are plenty of top of the range big BHP cars out there that will be as quick or quicker, but it's still quicker than 90%+ of what you will meet on the road. Revving out in 3rd and 4th can get you into trouble very quickly! It's also been so nice to go back to a rwd car - I'm not sure how much fun the Astra driver would be having on a wet roundabout.
The best bit though is that it's fun to drive at any speed and it makes me grin every time I drive it. And that's why I throw money at a 16 year old car when I should be more sensible!
In the end, BlueEyedBoy I imagine every trip is a delight in your Z4M. I can't imagine anyone ever saying that in an astra.
For all the "points" (if there are any) the astra driver gained by beating you at the lights, or whatever, in the end they're still sitting in an Astra.
I know which car I'd rather be in, by a country mile.
For all the "points" (if there are any) the astra driver gained by beating you at the lights, or whatever, in the end they're still sitting in an Astra.
I know which car I'd rather be in, by a country mile.
johnwilliams77 said:
Crackie said:
My earlier posts stated that I thought an E46 M3 was still a quickish car; any car that gets to 100 faster than a Ferrari Daytona should be considered quick. Your opinion is that many modern cars are "AS FAST"; my opinion is that many modern cars including the M135i are faster.
Autocar tested the current M4 at 8.8 seconds to 60mph; this is 3 seconds faster than Autocar, and the majority of tests, achieved for the E46 M3. I used these two facts as part of the basis for my opinion that the E46 M3 is just not that fast (anymore).
So it's a quickish car, but 'not that fast' (what you said on the last page). Glad that is clear Autocar tested the current M4 at 8.8 seconds to 60mph; this is 3 seconds faster than Autocar, and the majority of tests, achieved for the E46 M3. I used these two facts as part of the basis for my opinion that the E46 M3 is just not that fast (anymore).
Edited by Crackie on Tuesday 7th June 07:46
Crackie said:
I agree the "ish" isn't very helpful; to clear up the vague ambiguity......... I don't think the E46 M3 a fast car. It would have been Daytona / Countach pace in 1970s and 80s but today E46 M3 performance is available from a standard diesel 3 series saloon.
Clearer.So do you think it is a slow car?
Feels like a thread I can add to: currently own a Z4MC and a modified Forester STi. They both run about 320BHP-ish, not sure on torque, the FSTI probably has more. Have also previously owned an E46 M3 and other turbo modded jap stuff.
Would agree with all the statements above that the Z4M: a) is still very fast compared to 95-98% of cars on the road b) is not necessarily all about straight line speed but has a wonderful composed, high quality, enjoyable "fine wine" type drive about it when driven aggressively. It is a car that relishes and rewards at speed.
This year I took the Forester to the ring, last year I took the Z4. I was about 10 second quicker in the Forester this year, but I would put that down to increased confidence on that track as, when dealing with the Ring, the limiting factor (for any sensible person) will be the level of commitment of the driver!
Would agree with all the statements above that the Z4M: a) is still very fast compared to 95-98% of cars on the road b) is not necessarily all about straight line speed but has a wonderful composed, high quality, enjoyable "fine wine" type drive about it when driven aggressively. It is a car that relishes and rewards at speed.
This year I took the Forester to the ring, last year I took the Z4. I was about 10 second quicker in the Forester this year, but I would put that down to increased confidence on that track as, when dealing with the Ring, the limiting factor (for any sensible person) will be the level of commitment of the driver!
andyman_2006 said:
29wkaj said:
Have had two experiences, one in line with what you're saying and one that surprised me afterwards.
1. E46 M3 vs 2014 Fiesta ST 237bhp/280ftlbs
From a rolling start 40-50mph, the fiesta kept up (was slowly losing ground), until around 90-100.
If he puts his foot down when in front of me, on boost, I struggle to keep up until we start getting into the 90+ range.
2. E46 M3 vs 2015 Focus ST 290bhp/380ftlbs
After being given a run for my money by the Fiesta, decided to do a rolling start (properly this time, 40mph second gear for me, 3rd for him) with a friends tuned Focus ST.
Was 99% sure he'd have me after the lesser Fiesta gave me a scare, but the M3 seemed to pull away better in this scenario, and by 60-70 the gap was noticeable, by 100 the gap was large.
Did this run 3 times, same result each time.
This was using a 2003 M3 SMG, all on private race track.
The Fiesta is really impressive, did multiple pulls in a 297hp 350Z and they were neck and neck from 40-110, with the 350z just starting to edge it out around 110-130. Again, we tried this multiple times. In fact, at lower speeds the Fiesta would start to creep ahead.
1. E46 M3 vs 2014 Fiesta ST 237bhp/280ftlbs
From a rolling start 40-50mph, the fiesta kept up (was slowly losing ground), until around 90-100.
If he puts his foot down when in front of me, on boost, I struggle to keep up until we start getting into the 90+ range.
2. E46 M3 vs 2015 Focus ST 290bhp/380ftlbs
After being given a run for my money by the Fiesta, decided to do a rolling start (properly this time, 40mph second gear for me, 3rd for him) with a friends tuned Focus ST.
Was 99% sure he'd have me after the lesser Fiesta gave me a scare, but the M3 seemed to pull away better in this scenario, and by 60-70 the gap was noticeable, by 100 the gap was large.
Did this run 3 times, same result each time.
This was using a 2003 M3 SMG, all on private race track.
The Fiesta is really impressive, did multiple pulls in a 297hp 350Z and they were neck and neck from 40-110, with the 350z just starting to edge it out around 110-130. Again, we tried this multiple times. In fact, at lower speeds the Fiesta would start to creep ahead.
No disrespect to the fords, but they are 'just' fords, and in fairness not even comparable for the ownership experience.
The fiesta could be a 300hp 4x4 i still wouldnt want to swap a hand built N/A M3 for one....ever.
If i wanted a cheap turbo car i'd just buy a 2003 subaru wrx turbo and remap it...i mean how much are they now £4500?
For me its about the ownership experience and M cars feel more special.
I'm also sure a focus ST is faster than a RS500 cosworth....but which would you really want to own long term?
I would be interested to see how these hot fords coped with a standing start, not a rolling start? when fwd and no boost would an issue....
Andy
So if you compare an M3 to an RS the ownership experience argument goes away, I would argue both feel as special albeit in slightly different ways.
Back on topic I have a standard Mk1 FRS and in a straight line I won't be able to pull much if anything out against the new crop of fast diesel hatch backs and estates, however when the roads get twisty far more exotic machinery with a lot more power can be humbled due to the fact that the RS is far more approachable when pushing the limits and it is light in comparison to modern stuff.
The Z4M is still a quick/fast road car; I don’t see how anybody can argue that it isn’t? But, as previously said, the rest of the world is catching up several years later as well as tuning houses being able to offer pretty affordable mods that offer ridiculous power gains for relatively small costs.
The Z4M is just not as fast as the OP now wants it to be, does mean it’s not fast? Want it to be quicker, chuck a few £k at it, like the Astra has done, bolt a SC on and watch it go. Just make sure you buy tyres that can put the power down.
I have an e39 M5, recently I was behind the latest Civic type R at 40 mph entering a motorway (may have had a tune and it had a loud exhaust, extremely loud) and my god, I could not reel the adolescent zit fest in!! I kept with him but could not gain an inch. He eventually pulled over out of the way and, as the rules state; I kept my foot planted and gave thumbs up as I went by. He then tried to keep on my tail but at the higher speeds he dropped away. I like to think he recognised it was an M and mentally conceded hence pulling over, little did he know how I couldn’t drag him in.
This M5 has been one of my dream cars ever since being a child so I was more than traumatised when the latest chaV-Tech had me pegged! But the M5 was fun, still fast and delivered great performance in pure luxury of the e39 cabin. Once the fun was over I was sat in 6th a nice way in to triple figures with hardly a sound in the cabin. Given the option of the, possibly faster, Type R or my M5 it would be a no brainer, M5 every time. It’s still fast, imo looks menacing, sounds great (even though the exhaust note is held back), corners particularly well (for an old barge) and has the comfort and luxury that most ford and Honda’s still don’t provide a tick box for on the options list - all in a car that is going to be 15 years old this year.
With all this talk of torque, surely the S62 has to be one of the, if not the best N/A engines that BMW M has produced? Torque in abundance, revs relentlessly round round to 7k and pulls as good from 2500 rpm in 6th as it does in 2nd; I can pull up to a roundabout in 3rd gear at <10mph and navigate it no problem and still accelerate extremely well from such 700 RPM; none of this “needing” to be above 5k/6k to make it sing and dance, especially prevalent of the E60 V10 (although a far faster car).
The Z4M is just not as fast as the OP now wants it to be, does mean it’s not fast? Want it to be quicker, chuck a few £k at it, like the Astra has done, bolt a SC on and watch it go. Just make sure you buy tyres that can put the power down.
I have an e39 M5, recently I was behind the latest Civic type R at 40 mph entering a motorway (may have had a tune and it had a loud exhaust, extremely loud) and my god, I could not reel the adolescent zit fest in!! I kept with him but could not gain an inch. He eventually pulled over out of the way and, as the rules state; I kept my foot planted and gave thumbs up as I went by. He then tried to keep on my tail but at the higher speeds he dropped away. I like to think he recognised it was an M and mentally conceded hence pulling over, little did he know how I couldn’t drag him in.
This M5 has been one of my dream cars ever since being a child so I was more than traumatised when the latest chaV-Tech had me pegged! But the M5 was fun, still fast and delivered great performance in pure luxury of the e39 cabin. Once the fun was over I was sat in 6th a nice way in to triple figures with hardly a sound in the cabin. Given the option of the, possibly faster, Type R or my M5 it would be a no brainer, M5 every time. It’s still fast, imo looks menacing, sounds great (even though the exhaust note is held back), corners particularly well (for an old barge) and has the comfort and luxury that most ford and Honda’s still don’t provide a tick box for on the options list - all in a car that is going to be 15 years old this year.
With all this talk of torque, surely the S62 has to be one of the, if not the best N/A engines that BMW M has produced? Torque in abundance, revs relentlessly round round to 7k and pulls as good from 2500 rpm in 6th as it does in 2nd; I can pull up to a roundabout in 3rd gear at <10mph and navigate it no problem and still accelerate extremely well from such 700 RPM; none of this “needing” to be above 5k/6k to make it sing and dance, especially prevalent of the E60 V10 (although a far faster car).
The best part of the Z4 ownership is when you drop the roof. Doesn't matter what the hot hatch is, you are the one enjoying the open top drive. Better looking, more style and a car I will never sell. But it is just a Sunday Car, I also have a daddy-performance 535d Touring which is way faster than the Zed.
Hot hatches.... yep, I had them and enjoyed them when I was a lad. But they are for lads for with baseball caps on backwards., wearing Superdry clothing.
Hot hatches.... yep, I had them and enjoyed them when I was a lad. But they are for lads for with baseball caps on backwards., wearing Superdry clothing.
I was chased by a BMW 335i and M135i on two separate occasions recently, I was in my 996 Carrera 2 and both were very close matches up to 120+.
On both occasions I got the jump on them off round-abouts due to better traction I guess then they came back a little but never enough to push me or even come near passing. Both were new, had a power and torque advantage but the old girl kept them at bay.
An older genuinely fast car will remain so its just that there are a lot of new cars about with circa 300+ BHP which was a rare thing 10-15 years ago.
On both occasions I got the jump on them off round-abouts due to better traction I guess then they came back a little but never enough to push me or even come near passing. Both were new, had a power and torque advantage but the old girl kept them at bay.
An older genuinely fast car will remain so its just that there are a lot of new cars about with circa 300+ BHP which was a rare thing 10-15 years ago.
I've not once ever engaged in an impromptu (or otherwise) race/side-by-side acceleration comparison with another car. I noticed on a few occasions someone (often in a BMW of some sort) would gun it and "leave me for dead" Do what you want I'm just boring 
Driving any cars I tend to have fun getting my move away from the lights just right with minimum slippage of the clutch and the smoothest pull away as it's a sort of fun way of doing some kind of technical driving on the road - I don't mean roaring away, just wafting away smoothly yet briskly - even in low-powered cars just trying to be as smooth as possible in every way. I enjoy that. I find that most other drivers on the road tend to move away very slowly and probably slip the clutch a lot in doing so. I'm being an anorak I know, but it's a product of spending years when I was younger trying to get the best out of low-powered, naturally aspirated cars, and fully embracing flow and momentum and being as smooth as possible. I theorise that people are less likely to gravitate towards this approach these days because of the easy low-end torque available from turbo diesels and turbo petrol engines. Sure, turbos have their own fun, and you learn to be smooth with a similar approach, but it's not such a necessity to really chase "flow" any more. It's fun!
I've gone way off track with that but my point in relation to the thread was - having had other drivers infer that I was "racing" them either in the vain of "f**king muppet" or "blimey that's quick what've you got in there?"
Do what you want I'm just boring Driving any cars I tend to have fun getting my move away from the lights just right with minimum slippage of the clutch and the smoothest pull away as it's a sort of fun way of doing some kind of technical driving on the road - I don't mean roaring away, just wafting away smoothly yet briskly - even in low-powered cars just trying to be as smooth as possible in every way. I enjoy that. I find that most other drivers on the road tend to move away very slowly and probably slip the clutch a lot in doing so. I'm being an anorak I know, but it's a product of spending years when I was younger trying to get the best out of low-powered, naturally aspirated cars, and fully embracing flow and momentum and being as smooth as possible. I theorise that people are less likely to gravitate towards this approach these days because of the easy low-end torque available from turbo diesels and turbo petrol engines. Sure, turbos have their own fun, and you learn to be smooth with a similar approach, but it's not such a necessity to really chase "flow" any more. It's fun!
I've gone way off track with that but my point in relation to the thread was - having had other drivers infer that I was "racing" them either in the vain of "f**king muppet" or "blimey that's quick what've you got in there?"
andyman_2006 said:
No disrespect to the fords, but they are 'just' fords, and in fairness not even comparable for the ownership experience.
The fiesta could be a 300hp 4x4 i still wouldnt want to swap a hand built N/A M3 for one....ever.
If i wanted a cheap turbo car i'd just buy a 2003 subaru wrx turbo and remap it...i mean how much are they now £4500?
For me its about the ownership experience and M cars feel more special.
I'm also sure a focus ST is faster than a RS500 cosworth....but which would you really want to own long term?
I would be interested to see how these hot fords coped with a standing start, not a rolling start? when fwd and no boost would an issue....
Andy
I have an S50 Z3M and I'm pretty sure it's quicker than most of the cars you'll meet, perhaps not so much in a straight line anymore compared to modern hot hatches as it's only 330bhp. I've done some light work on the engine and recently had Mr.Vanos sort out the vanos system.
I can understand the OP point though - my day to day is an Audi S3 Sportback, and with it being turbo charged it feels quicker from low revs due to the extra torque. However, in terms of driving enjoyment there's no contest. The Z3M is better to drive in every single way. It's highly strung, RWD, precise, has an LSD, and the noise the S50 makes when you hit 8000rpm is glorious.
To be honest, on the public country roads, it's not easy to 'drop' any reasonably well driven performance car/hot hatch simply because you have to really hammer the corners and to do that you'll be going well over 60 mph and it becomes more of a question of how fast you are prepared to go.
I can understand the OP point though - my day to day is an Audi S3 Sportback, and with it being turbo charged it feels quicker from low revs due to the extra torque. However, in terms of driving enjoyment there's no contest. The Z3M is better to drive in every single way. It's highly strung, RWD, precise, has an LSD, and the noise the S50 makes when you hit 8000rpm is glorious.
To be honest, on the public country roads, it's not easy to 'drop' any reasonably well driven performance car/hot hatch simply because you have to really hammer the corners and to do that you'll be going well over 60 mph and it becomes more of a question of how fast you are prepared to go.
I've had all sorts of cars, from small turbo hatches to large engined cars. In general turbo cars run out of puff much sooner than a large capacity engine. So I expect a small turbo hatch to be on a par with 99% of things up to legal speeds. However once you get past triple digits a large engined car will just pull away.
I was impressed with an ST Fiesta trying to keep up with my CLS 500 a couple of years ago. It did well and almost matched me up to legal speeds. However once into triple digits the CLS simply strolled away effortlessly. I suspect many of you have been in the exact same situation. I was all relaxed and not even trying in total comfort and near silence. Whilst I expect the Fiesta driver was stirring the gearbox and listening to a racket from his tuned up tinny four pot. If you want cheap running and decent enough poke the ST would be great I am sure. But there are MUCH nicer ownership experiences to be had.
I was impressed with an ST Fiesta trying to keep up with my CLS 500 a couple of years ago. It did well and almost matched me up to legal speeds. However once into triple digits the CLS simply strolled away effortlessly. I suspect many of you have been in the exact same situation. I was all relaxed and not even trying in total comfort and near silence. Whilst I expect the Fiesta driver was stirring the gearbox and listening to a racket from his tuned up tinny four pot. If you want cheap running and decent enough poke the ST would be great I am sure. But there are MUCH nicer ownership experiences to be had.
Olf said:
Half the issue now is gearboxes. Let's face it the Z4M is a bit of a t
t to get off the line and into second. Once there it's fast, plenty fast but nailing a start is difficult.
Agreed - the box on my M3 is frankly a turd. It's nearly the worst I've ever had on a car and the least pleasant part of the driving experience, even after a rebuild.t to get off the line and into second. Once there it's fast, plenty fast but nailing a start is difficult. k-ink said:
I've had all sorts of cars, from small turbo hatches to large engined cars. In general turbo cars run out of puff much sooner than a large capacity engine. So I expect a small turbo hatch to be on a par with 99% of things up to legal speeds. However once you get past triple digits a large engined car will just pull away.
I was impressed with an ST Fiesta trying to keep up with my CLS 500 a couple of years ago. It did well and almost matched me up to legal speeds. However once into triple digits the CLS simply strolled away effortlessly. I suspect many of you have been in the exact same situation. I was all relaxed and not even trying in total comfort and near silence. Whilst I expect the Fiesta driver was stirring the gearbox and listening to a racket from his tuned up tinny four pot. If you want cheap running and decent enough poke the ST would be great I am sure. But there are MUCH nicer ownership experiences to be had.
The Fiesta ST is hardly a fare comparison though, I'm pretty sure something like a Focus ST would probably make the gap non-existent and the latest RS (or Golf R, 135 etc) would properly embarrass a CLS500 in any given scenario.I was impressed with an ST Fiesta trying to keep up with my CLS 500 a couple of years ago. It did well and almost matched me up to legal speeds. However once into triple digits the CLS simply strolled away effortlessly. I suspect many of you have been in the exact same situation. I was all relaxed and not even trying in total comfort and near silence. Whilst I expect the Fiesta driver was stirring the gearbox and listening to a racket from his tuned up tinny four pot. If you want cheap running and decent enough poke the ST would be great I am sure. But there are MUCH nicer ownership experiences to be had.
I do agree that there is more to car ownership than outright performance though....
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