Z4M / E46 M3 - Are they just not that fast?

Z4M / E46 M3 - Are they just not that fast?

Author
Discussion

Wills2

22,669 posts

174 months

Sunday 29th May 2016
quotequote all
All depends what you want to do, drive around trying to "beat others" and "show them" etc...or enjoy a lovely engine with a great throttle response and noise coupled with a nicely balanced chassis.




cerb4.5lee

30,189 posts

179 months

Sunday 29th May 2016
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ocrx8 said:
0836whimper said:
cerb4.5lee said:
I haven't much time now for BMW's high rev/ low torque engines(S54/S65)
And the very broken record somehow keeps on playing....
Can't comment on the S65 but I haven't found the S54 in my Z4M lacking in torque at all.

@ Lee - I suggest a month where you're forbidden to mention the E9X M3! hehe
I think I am probably being a little harsh on the S54 because its far more peppy lower down than the S65 to be fair, its best work is still on its top end though I think.

Lol at being forbidden!biggrin I am such a bloody boring repetitive git...I don't think I could do it!! smile

Crackie

6,386 posts

241 months

Sunday 29th May 2016
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talksthetorque said:
helix402 said:
I don't think the Z4 has 350hp.
Z4M 343 bhp

S54 engine probably did make the claimed 338bhp just after its 1200 mile running in service and with all valve clearances spot on; most won't be making that any more. 320bhp seems to be the norm these days; this will give about 218bhp/T. Plenty of mapped 280bhp....1300Kg hatches out there with the same power to weight and fatter torque curves too.

OP......your S54 engine is one of the all time greats with a wide power band, character and wonderful noise; outright pace isn't the be all and end all.

If you still feel the need to compete with hotter hatches then remapped Z4 35is would be about 250bhp/T or about 15% better than Z4M.

Edited by Crackie on Monday 30th May 19:13

evojam

560 posts

159 months

Monday 30th May 2016
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Not really in context with the Astra but I took my little bone stock Clio 172 to a BMW Car Club trackday at Silverstone GP circuit a while back after my M3 Evo was a little poorly.

One of the best days ever! had so much fun thrashing the hell out of it all day.Loads of E46 M3's and a few Z4M's there,interesting as lap after lap I could keep up with them easily through the twisty bits,often a little quicker but once out onto the straights into the top end of 3rd and 4th I just got left for dead time after time,did'nt care a jot though as it was great to hear the howl of an S54 as it dissapearedsmile

rassi

2,447 posts

250 months

Monday 30th May 2016
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The nature of the delivery of the pre-turbo M engines means that the rev band needs to be used to the full, which means a diesel turbo in the right gear and on boost might very well appear to be as fast as an M not driven to 10/10th.

Even the mighty E39 M5, which in the context of NA M engines is probably the one that has the most relaxed torque delivery from low revs, I found could be caught out up to a certain speed point.

As others have stated, in order to put significant distance between two cars, a very considerable horsepower difference is needed.

rb5er

11,657 posts

171 months

Monday 30th May 2016
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Yeh they are not that quick really. Too peaky.

mwstewart

7,554 posts

187 months

Monday 30th May 2016
quotequote all
rb5er said:
Yeh they are not that quick really. Too peaky.
Torque curve has nothing to do with the car being quick - It just means you have to drive them properly to get the performance.

rb5er

11,657 posts

171 months

Monday 30th May 2016
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Ok, driven well they are not that quick. Possibly partially due to their relative lack of torque.

Edited by rb5er on Monday 30th May 10:54

Nutinrila

50 posts

200 months

Monday 30th May 2016
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For the 6 1/2 years I've owned my m3 my young neighbour has done nothing but bum it up and love it like it was his own.

He's passed his test a year now and bought a mk4 Astra gsi, it's tuned to what stage I don't no but it's forever popping and banging as he fly's into the culdisac

I dread the day I meet him on a dual carriageway, I'll never here the end of it if he keeps up, or probably passes my old beemer.

I love my car for what it is, as a whole package I still couldn't replace it for the same value of car, however it does still annoy me that they little hot hatches can make a fool of you at times

BlueEyedBoy

Original Poster:

1,918 posts

195 months

Monday 30th May 2016
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Well I now know there is now very little in it between a M135i and a M235i, although quicker than an Alfa 147 GTA, so I guess just about where I expected it to be performance wise. Great thumbs up driving from the other cars smile

I had a brilliant morning A and B road blast and realised that 3rd gear with the roof down on an early summers day is where it's at and it does't matter if the latest hot hatch can beat it, just feels alive in those conditions.

I do think I will have to step it up on the next car as I admit I do like an engine that can throw you back into your seat but there is so little out there that has character and power without getting into silly money, which is maybe where I need to go. Probably I will have to finally give up the "i will never buy one" statement and get a 997 turbo smile

I think I'll take another year in the Z, definitely as summer is coming smile

Beedub

1,954 posts

225 months

Monday 30th May 2016
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strap a blower to it and not only do you have the amazing engine but firepower that very Very little will match....

Billy_Whizzzz

1,989 posts

142 months

Monday 30th May 2016
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Worth watching Jason Plato's review here... He seems to think it's pretty savage

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CNMCCpBX9lM

5678

6,146 posts

226 months

Tuesday 31st May 2016
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Had a play with an e46 m3 yesterday in my m135i.

Expected it to be level pegging. But consistently pulled away from him every time. Not "left for dead" stuff, but a good 50+ meters by the time we got to three figures.

Crackie

6,386 posts

241 months

Tuesday 31st May 2016
quotequote all
rassi said:
Even the mighty E39 M5,
is only 1 or possibly 2% quicker than an E36 M3 EVO or E46 M3.

bennyboysvuk

3,491 posts

247 months

Tuesday 31st May 2016
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BlueEyedBoy said:
Well I now know there is now very little in it between a M135i and a M235i, although quicker than an Alfa 147 GTA, so I guess just about where I expected it to be performance wise. Great thumbs up driving from the other cars smile

I had a brilliant morning A and B road blast and realised that 3rd gear with the roof down on an early summers day is where it's at and it does't matter if the latest hot hatch can beat it, just feels alive in those conditions.

I do think I will have to step it up on the next car as I admit I do like an engine that can throw you back into your seat but there is so little out there that has character and power without getting into silly money, which is maybe where I need to go. Probably I will have to finally give up the "i will never buy one" statement and get a 997 turbo smile

I think I'll take another year in the Z, definitely as summer is coming smile
I'm certainly at the point now where I miss the character of the older M-cars. The Z4M and E46 M3 had something more raucous and fun about them. Sure, an M135i might be level-pegging or even quicker, but it's refined and relaxed and the open diff is crap at every point that the LSD in the Z or M3 is brilliant. In terms of engines, taken to extremes, the difference feels like the difference between a revvy, outrageous 2013 F1 V8 compared to the quieter, more mundane sounding turbo'd V6s.

Crackie

6,386 posts

241 months

Tuesday 31st May 2016
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bennyboysvuk said:
I'm certainly at the point now where I miss the character of the older M-cars. The Z4M and E46 M3 had something more raucous and fun about them. Sure, an M135i might be level-pegging or even quicker, but it's refined and relaxed and the open diff is crap at every point that the LSD in the Z or M3 is brilliant. In terms of engines, taken to extremes, the difference feels like the difference between a revvy, outrageous 2013 F1 V8 compared to the quieter, more mundane sounding turbo'd V6s.
I also miss the character of older M engines but do enjoy the mapped N54 in my 335i. I ran a couple of E36 M3s from 2004 'til 2012 and know what an S54 feels like too; high revving NA engines had more character. M135is have more power under the curve than E46 M3s and are noticeably quicker but I'd rather have a good E46 any day.

SuperVM

1,098 posts

160 months

Tuesday 31st May 2016
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Crackie said:
rassi said:
Even the mighty E39 M5,
is only 1 or possibly 2% quicker than an E36 M3 EVO or E46 M3.
Extremely different power deliveries though, which I think is the point that was being made.

andyman_2006

718 posts

189 months

Tuesday 31st May 2016
quotequote all
Nutinrila said:
For the 6 1/2 years I've owned my m3 my young neighbour has done nothing but bum it up and love it like it was his own.

He's passed his test a year now and bought a mk4 Astra gsi, it's tuned to what stage I don't no but it's forever popping and banging as he fly's into the culdisac

I dread the day I meet him on a dual carriageway, I'll never here the end of it if he keeps up, or probably passes my old beemer.

I love my car for what it is, as a whole package I still couldn't replace it for the same value of car, however it does still annoy me that they little hot hatches can make a fool of you at times


You can put an end to all of these silly hot hatches.....

http://www.hackengineering.co.uk/product/e46-m3-vf...

choose your kit and boom 420-570 depending on price...

Or...

Buy a Nissan GTR and watch most things disappear in your mirror! lol

In fairness the turbo hot hatches are a one trick pony, ok on full boost, and in a straight line, but many are fwd and are very much a handful on the twists, I've had an astra VXR and its torque steer is bloody awful....thats before you map it up and tune it to an inch of its life....you can modify anything just depends where you want to draw the line, i;d much rather have my M3 than a 4cyl turbo hair dryer mapped to death with a ton of bolt on bits to try make it handle better and steer correctly.

Andy

GregorFuk

563 posts

199 months

Tuesday 31st May 2016
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Having dragged up the main straight of Knockhill side by side with a Gen 1 997 GT3 CS I can say that the 911 was just a tiny tiny bit faster than my CSL. It literally crawled past me; it was one of those bouncing in your seat willing the car on moments. I guess a vanilla M3 or Z4M might be a little off this pace but not by a massive amount, that does not make it a slow car to me.

johnwilliams77

8,308 posts

102 months

Tuesday 31st May 2016
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GregorFuk said:
Having dragged up the main straight of Knockhill side by side with a Gen 1 997 GT3 CS I can say that the 911 was just a tiny tiny bit faster than my CSL. It literally crawled past me; it was one of those bouncing in your seat willing the car on moments. I guess a vanilla M3 or Z4M might be a little off this pace but not by a massive amount, that does not make it a slow car to me.
Exactly
Complete idiocy to say they're not quick cars