Z4M / E46 M3 - Are they just not that fast?
Discussion
stuart-b said:
How patronising. It's too slow because he said it is, not because he cares if you think it is! What's to say he hasn't already done driver training courses and/or races the car?
Try the ESS, great bit of kit, seems very popular and rock solid engineering !
Nothing is to say he has already done a car-limits course, hence the question. People tend to upgrade the cars before themselves. Try the ESS, great bit of kit, seems very popular and rock solid engineering !
And for clarity, I never asked why it is too slow so not sure why you are answering that in your keyboard splutter above!
Thought I'd give my perspective as a hot hatch owner.
I've got a modified leon cupra r (1.8t) and went against a cousin who used to own an e46 m3 smg. We went from about 30-120 a few times and there wasn't much in it. The front edge of my bonnet was in line with the rear of his bumper so hardly anything in it.
What I will say though is that even if my car was quicker, if I had a choice, I'd have the m3 every single time. It's the power delivery, the noise, the build up to the redline more then just outright speed.
You hear a lot of talk about torque and the lack of it. If you want torque which is no bad thing, buy a turbo. How can anyone expect an n/a engine to have lots of low down torque and a screaming top end?
If I didn't have a requirement for a 4/5 door there'd be an e46 m3 outside my front door right now.
Lastly, I'm sure this will be rubbished and maybe my memory is just off but wasn't the m3 engine mentioned as sort of half a mclaren f1 engine? Think I may have read that in a magazine somewhere at least.
I've got a modified leon cupra r (1.8t) and went against a cousin who used to own an e46 m3 smg. We went from about 30-120 a few times and there wasn't much in it. The front edge of my bonnet was in line with the rear of his bumper so hardly anything in it.
What I will say though is that even if my car was quicker, if I had a choice, I'd have the m3 every single time. It's the power delivery, the noise, the build up to the redline more then just outright speed.
You hear a lot of talk about torque and the lack of it. If you want torque which is no bad thing, buy a turbo. How can anyone expect an n/a engine to have lots of low down torque and a screaming top end?
If I didn't have a requirement for a 4/5 door there'd be an e46 m3 outside my front door right now.
Lastly, I'm sure this will be rubbished and maybe my memory is just off but wasn't the m3 engine mentioned as sort of half a mclaren f1 engine? Think I may have read that in a magazine somewhere at least.
Edited by irf on Friday 10th June 19:09
Edited by irf on Friday 10th June 19:11
Leins said:
A number of years ago, somewhere north of Munich, I recall the rear diffuser of the Astra OPC (aka VXR) in front shaking profusely around the 150mph-mark. I suspect the car was probably just about at its limiter anyway, but not sure that particular one really wanted to go much faster anyway. A random 1M was overtaken at something around the 175mph, and my CSL I had at the time was last clocked overtaking another one close to that speed on their nav. It kept pulling, and clocks went off the scale, so I suspect it was a bit above the 180mph before an approaching bend meant slowing slightly, and we never got up to those speeds again
Anyway, point of the story is that S54s, albeit in blueprinted CSL-form, are mighty engines that despite a lack of forced induction or huge cubic capacity can still keep pulling at the bigger numbers
Nice photo must have sounded great in there. Anyway, point of the story is that S54s, albeit in blueprinted CSL-form, are mighty engines that despite a lack of forced induction or huge cubic capacity can still keep pulling at the bigger numbers
Edited by Leins on Friday 10th June 11:44
stef1808 said:
Ive been feeling my e46 m is too slow lately also. cant decide whether to supercharge it or sell and use the money on another car
Go for something lighter and with a far better power to weight ratio, and something that doesn't rely on very high revs to deliver its performance...and that will do the job nicely for you I reckon. When I first drove the E46 M3 it left me flat and I thought the engine lacked punch(the weight of the car is the problem), you need something that's built to thrill from the outset and not based on a family runaround.
Can't help but think by adding an SC kit, you're adding massive HP gains sure, but losing the character that is only had from it being N/A, and of course that induction noise if you've got a GSR/Eventuri or CSL airbox!
Just listen to this
https://youtu.be/q0ESPCfGJxo
Just listen to this
https://youtu.be/q0ESPCfGJxo
Edited by robbiekhan on Saturday 11th June 03:10
Leins said:
A number of years ago, somewhere north of Munich, I recall the rear diffuser of the Astra OPC (aka VXR) in front shaking profusely around the 150mph-mark. I suspect the car was probably just about at its limiter anyway, but not sure that particular one really wanted to go much faster anyway. A random 1M was overtaken at something around the 175mph, and my CSL I had at the time was last clocked overtaking another one close to that speed on their nav. It kept pulling, and clocks went off the scale, so I suspect it was a bit above the 180mph before an approaching bend meant slowing slightly, and we never got up to those speeds again
Anyway, point of the story is that S54s, albeit in blueprinted CSL-form, are mighty engines that despite a lack of forced induction or huge cubic capacity can still keep pulling at the bigger numbers
U wot mate?Anyway, point of the story is that S54s, albeit in blueprinted CSL-form, are mighty engines that despite a lack of forced induction or huge cubic capacity can still keep pulling at the bigger numbers
Edited by Leins on Friday 10th June 11:44
Care to elaborate? As far as I'm aware there is nothing special about the CSL S54 above and beyond that of the regular E46 M3 aside from the mapping and the airbox?
DoubleTime said:
U wot mate?
Care to elaborate? As far as I'm aware there is nothing special about the CSL S54 above and beyond that of the regular E46 M3 aside from the mapping and the airbox?
There was some talk a while ago that most m3's dyno 320-330 hp but the CSL's always hit 360. Care to elaborate? As far as I'm aware there is nothing special about the CSL S54 above and beyond that of the regular E46 M3 aside from the mapping and the airbox?
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Thorny motorsports was of the opinion that BMW kept the best performing motors for the CSL and this wasn't an unusual practice, especially in the past. The engines with the best tollerances were producing the best power.
Could all be b
ks but the dynos seem to backup the theory.stuart-b said:
DoubleTime said:
U wot mate?
Care to elaborate? As far as I'm aware there is nothing special about the CSL S54 above and beyond that of the regular E46 M3 aside from the mapping and the airbox?
There was some talk a while ago that most m3's dyno 320-330 hp but the CSL's always hit 360. Care to elaborate? As far as I'm aware there is nothing special about the CSL S54 above and beyond that of the regular E46 M3 aside from the mapping and the airbox?
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Thorny motorsports was of the opinion that BMW kept the best performing motors for the CSL and this wasn't an unusual practice, especially in the past. The engines with the best tollerances were producing the best power.
Could all be b
ks but the dynos seem to backup the theory.
M3 CSL exact part differences
List of differences between the M3 E46 and the M3 CSL E46
Compiled by NZ_N3 with help from cslregister
Confirmed differences :
- Engine block (supposedly picked from the least flawed cast) – The blocks have the same part numbers as M3, Z4, but the full short block is a different part number 11007833675
- Engine head (exhaust valve and intake/exhaust cams - longer duration, same lift) – intake cam shaft 11317835041 exhaust cam shaft 11317835043 Exhaust Valve 11347833676 (30,5/5,95mm) – the valve springs are exactly the same
- Intake plenum (carbon airbox as we like to call it) Air Collector 11617833496 filter 13727838625 The other half of the carbon box: 11617833497 and control unit 11617833498 all the other ducting 11617833646; 11617833645; 11617833648; 13717896774 intake grill 51117895883
- Extractors/Headers (same as post 2005 M3s and Z4) 11627833500; 11627833643
- Cat converter (200 cell) 18307833673
- X pipe, resonators (thinner material - slightly lighter) 18107833503
- Rear muffler - slightly lighter 18107833504
- Different ECU - 25% more capacity 12147837328; 12147834982
- Different SMG control unit program 23607837731
- Pseudo Alpha N engine management (delete of MAF, but still runs a MAP sensor, and air temp sensor 13621739510- debate as to whether this is just for idle control however) MAP sensor part number 13627833561
- Different traction control system with M track mode on steering wheel (much like the DCT mode in new E9X series)
-Different ABS control program
- Shorter steering ratio 14.5:1 (compared with 15.4:1 on M3) 32132282647 (same steering rack as the M3 CS)
- Front bumper (carbon fiber with incorporate bumper support) silver grey 51117896820 Sapphire Black 51117895950
- Roof (carbon fiber) 41007895382;
- Rear diffuser (carbon fiber) - the bumper is the same as M3 so is the carrier – silver grey 51127896832 Sapphire Black 51127895985
- Boot lid (Moulded sheet plastic - it's not fiberglass people, it's much harder and more rigid) 41007895884
- Rolled rear fenders to accommodate wider rear rims. Bare Full Body Skeleton for CSL 41007895934 (part numbers for the rear fenders are the same as M3, but the CSL comes from the factory with ROLLED rear fenders)
- Different wheels (NOT magnesium, cast aluminium) made by BBS 36112282650; 36112282999
- Suspension and spring (sachs, shorter spring and different damper and rebound rates) fronts 31312282505; 31312282506 front bump stop 31332282508 rear 33522282507, rear mount disc (CSL specific) 33532282503; bumper stop 33532282509
- different rear lower arm - aluminium with spherical joint 33322283074
- different front king pin (hub) for wider front track 31212282855; 31212282856
- larger front sway bar (hollow) 30.8mm 31352282655
- larger rear sway bar 22.5mm 33552282681
- larger front brakes (345mm) 34112282445; 34112282446 brake carrier 34112282619
- larger rear brake caliper piston 34212282857; 34212282858 (same as M3 CS)
- Pilot sport Cup Tyres 85452536738; 85452536740
- Lighter rear glass 51317895441
- Recaro SPG Type front seats 52100031830; 52100031831; rails 52107895957; 52107895958
- Lighter rear seats (4 seater rather than 5) 52207896809; 52207896800 rear console 52207896297
- Lightweight through load facility 52207896929; 52207896930; 52207896807; 52207896808
- Paper/Honey combe boot floor COVER (yes the infamous cardboard floor) 51477895990
- Carbon door cards and rear panel 51417895581; 51417895582; 51437895579; 51437895580 Door handles 51417896919; 51417896920
- Carbon centre console 51167896359
- Alcantara steering wheel 32342282502
- Alcantara hand brake lever 34412282662
- 4 rather than 6(or 8 if equiped) airbags
- NO INTERIOR SOUND DEADENING
- No bonnet heat shield (same aluminium bonnet as M3)
- Optional Radio and aircon
- Lighter battery (same as the Mini Cooper S battery) 61218377139
- Lighter microfilter housing (bottom part 64 31 7 895 937 1.050 kg, housing 64 31 7 895 939 1.630 kg)
- Wiring harness, engine grbx. module (1.83kg) // Normal M3 with SMG 1.87kg 12517833366
- bumpstop 13717832175
- bumpstop 31332282508
- suction hood (0.419kg) // Normal M3 0.470kg 13717834085
- water + oil radiator 17112282380
- shift knob alcantara 25162282560
- rear damper adapter 33532282503
- floor covering front 51477896369
- floor covering rear 51477896370
- main wiring harness 61116975073 (16.51kg) // Normal M3 18.93kg
- Head lamp cleaning device container 61672695531
- Windshield cleaning container 61677892701
- Compression shroud 64546928033
- seatbelt 72117919207
Unconfirmed differences:
- less under carriage undercoating
- extra welding points to chassis
List of differences between the M3 E46 and the M3 CSL E46
Compiled by NZ_N3 with help from cslregister
Confirmed differences :
- Engine block (supposedly picked from the least flawed cast) – The blocks have the same part numbers as M3, Z4, but the full short block is a different part number 11007833675
- Engine head (exhaust valve and intake/exhaust cams - longer duration, same lift) – intake cam shaft 11317835041 exhaust cam shaft 11317835043 Exhaust Valve 11347833676 (30,5/5,95mm) – the valve springs are exactly the same
- Intake plenum (carbon airbox as we like to call it) Air Collector 11617833496 filter 13727838625 The other half of the carbon box: 11617833497 and control unit 11617833498 all the other ducting 11617833646; 11617833645; 11617833648; 13717896774 intake grill 51117895883
- Extractors/Headers (same as post 2005 M3s and Z4) 11627833500; 11627833643
- Cat converter (200 cell) 18307833673
- X pipe, resonators (thinner material - slightly lighter) 18107833503
- Rear muffler - slightly lighter 18107833504
- Different ECU - 25% more capacity 12147837328; 12147834982
- Different SMG control unit program 23607837731
- Pseudo Alpha N engine management (delete of MAF, but still runs a MAP sensor, and air temp sensor 13621739510- debate as to whether this is just for idle control however) MAP sensor part number 13627833561
- Different traction control system with M track mode on steering wheel (much like the DCT mode in new E9X series)
-Different ABS control program
- Shorter steering ratio 14.5:1 (compared with 15.4:1 on M3) 32132282647 (same steering rack as the M3 CS)
- Front bumper (carbon fiber with incorporate bumper support) silver grey 51117896820 Sapphire Black 51117895950
- Roof (carbon fiber) 41007895382;
- Rear diffuser (carbon fiber) - the bumper is the same as M3 so is the carrier – silver grey 51127896832 Sapphire Black 51127895985
- Boot lid (Moulded sheet plastic - it's not fiberglass people, it's much harder and more rigid) 41007895884
- Rolled rear fenders to accommodate wider rear rims. Bare Full Body Skeleton for CSL 41007895934 (part numbers for the rear fenders are the same as M3, but the CSL comes from the factory with ROLLED rear fenders)
- Different wheels (NOT magnesium, cast aluminium) made by BBS 36112282650; 36112282999
- Suspension and spring (sachs, shorter spring and different damper and rebound rates) fronts 31312282505; 31312282506 front bump stop 31332282508 rear 33522282507, rear mount disc (CSL specific) 33532282503; bumper stop 33532282509
- different rear lower arm - aluminium with spherical joint 33322283074
- different front king pin (hub) for wider front track 31212282855; 31212282856
- larger front sway bar (hollow) 30.8mm 31352282655
- larger rear sway bar 22.5mm 33552282681
- larger front brakes (345mm) 34112282445; 34112282446 brake carrier 34112282619
- larger rear brake caliper piston 34212282857; 34212282858 (same as M3 CS)
- Pilot sport Cup Tyres 85452536738; 85452536740
- Lighter rear glass 51317895441
- Recaro SPG Type front seats 52100031830; 52100031831; rails 52107895957; 52107895958
- Lighter rear seats (4 seater rather than 5) 52207896809; 52207896800 rear console 52207896297
- Lightweight through load facility 52207896929; 52207896930; 52207896807; 52207896808
- Paper/Honey combe boot floor COVER (yes the infamous cardboard floor) 51477895990
- Carbon door cards and rear panel 51417895581; 51417895582; 51437895579; 51437895580 Door handles 51417896919; 51417896920
- Carbon centre console 51167896359
- Alcantara steering wheel 32342282502
- Alcantara hand brake lever 34412282662
- 4 rather than 6(or 8 if equiped) airbags
- NO INTERIOR SOUND DEADENING
- No bonnet heat shield (same aluminium bonnet as M3)
- Optional Radio and aircon
- Lighter battery (same as the Mini Cooper S battery) 61218377139
- Lighter microfilter housing (bottom part 64 31 7 895 937 1.050 kg, housing 64 31 7 895 939 1.630 kg)
- Wiring harness, engine grbx. module (1.83kg) // Normal M3 with SMG 1.87kg 12517833366
- bumpstop 13717832175
- bumpstop 31332282508
- suction hood (0.419kg) // Normal M3 0.470kg 13717834085
- water + oil radiator 17112282380
- shift knob alcantara 25162282560
- rear damper adapter 33532282503
- floor covering front 51477896369
- floor covering rear 51477896370
- main wiring harness 61116975073 (16.51kg) // Normal M3 18.93kg
- Head lamp cleaning device container 61672695531
- Windshield cleaning container 61677892701
- Compression shroud 64546928033
- seatbelt 72117919207
Unconfirmed differences:
- less under carriage undercoating
- extra welding points to chassis
robbiekhan said:
Can't help but think by adding an SC kit, you're adding massive HP gains sure, but losing the character that is only had from it being N/A, and of course that induction noise if you've got a GSR/Eventuri or CSL airbox!
Just listen to this
https://youtu.be/q0ESPCfGJxo
the character remains the same, being a centrifugal, the power and Tq is just moved up the graph mimics the stock curves all the way... you still hear the wonderful motor, it really is like having a big engine swap... the only problem is the potential issues and cost.... the car also needs alot of supporting work to ensure relaible use of the power, but once all working , its a very serious car. Just listen to this
https://youtu.be/q0ESPCfGJxo
Edited by robbiekhan on Saturday 11th June 03:10
Sorry, wasn't trying to start a CSL vs non-CSL debate, just that it's generally regarded at the highest output road-going S54 that came out of the factory. Obviously there is a weight difference with the car too, partially off-set by having three big enough lads in the car at the time. Some sort of ram-effect may have been noticeable too as my car was delimited so sailed past the supposed 155mph limit, and still wanted to pull well above 170. Aircon was on at the time too IIRC
The point still remains though that I don't see how anyone can call an S54-engined car slow. Funnily enough the biggest criticism I would have is that in standard spec they go a little bit "light" above 160mph
Great cars, great trip. Unfortunately they're more known as an investment vehicle now, and I'll freely admit I almost started viewing it as such myself, so it hardly got driven for quite a while shamefully. I sold mine last year when I got an offer I couldn't refuse
Another trip down the Bahn to Stuttgart is in the planning stage for me again, although I'm not sure how well my B5 RS4 will cope with any random 1Ms this time
The point still remains though that I don't see how anyone can call an S54-engined car slow. Funnily enough the biggest criticism I would have is that in standard spec they go a little bit "light" above 160mph
Wills2 said:
Nice photo must have sounded great in there.
It certainly did Wills, and the biggest thing I miss about the car. I love the noise these things make at full tilt. We drove from Rotterdam to Munich in one go, only stopping for fuel and the odd sandwich, 3 up and the boot full of clobber. Wonderful car!custardkid said:
I was in that 3 car CSL convoy on the way to Munich on a quiet Autobahn
he's not making it up the speedos literally went off the bottom of the dial into the empty bit by the ///M badge !
I think the tomtom was about 10mph behind the speedo
That was some day, and that pic above was taken when we were slowing again! I was actually in the back of my own car at the time, and the look on the German lads faces in the 1M afterwards was brilliant, they were loving it!he's not making it up the speedos literally went off the bottom of the dial into the empty bit by the ///M badge !
I think the tomtom was about 10mph behind the speedo
Great cars, great trip. Unfortunately they're more known as an investment vehicle now, and I'll freely admit I almost started viewing it as such myself, so it hardly got driven for quite a while shamefully. I sold mine last year when I got an offer I couldn't refuse
Another trip down the Bahn to Stuttgart is in the planning stage for me again, although I'm not sure how well my B5 RS4 will cope with any random 1Ms this time
flimper said:
How is it being a passenger in a CSL for any length of time? I've never driven one, but had a sit in one, and found it a little uncomfortable around the shoulders with those bucket seats.
I think it very much depends on body shape. I'm tall, and slim-medium build and the driving poison was perfect for me when the seats were adjusted to the lowest level. You do sit a bit "bolt-upright" though, which I quite like. There are adjustable foam pads for the lumbar tooHowever, I have friends who were in bits getting out even after a short journey, especially those who are a little wider
As for the back seats, a good few pillows makes all the difference, especially as the bench underneath is a bit hard, plus you kind of have to have your legs either side of the seat-backs. I didn't find it too bad though for the times I was in there, and I have a video somewhere of one of the lads snoring his head off in the back, so it is possible to get comfortable
There was a feature in one of the mags a few years ago where VBH travelled around Europe in one, complete with baby buggies and all IIRC, and found it a good car for the trip
Leins said:
Sorry, wasn't trying to start a CSL vs non-CSL debate, just that it's generally regarded at the highest output road-going S54 that came out of the factory. Obviously there is a weight difference with the car too, partially off-set by having three big enough lads in the car at the time. Some sort of ram-effect may have been noticeable too as my car was delimited so sailed past the supposed 155mph limit, and still wanted to pull well above 170. Aircon was on at the time too IIRC
My old z4mc did exactly the same when I took it to Germany and was always a bit quicker than a regular e46 m3. I've driven several s54s including the CSL and they always seemed to deliver in a slightly different way, some are definitely more peaky than others.DoubleTime said:
darreni said:
Lots of stuff
It's fair to say from that list that the bulk of the changes relate to...
ECU + SMGII
Weight savings
Cams
Carbon intake
Alpha N
Looks like the rest is pretty much the same as 2005 onward M3/Z4M's
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