Z4M / E46 M3 - Are they just not that fast?
Discussion
robbiekhan said:
People have mentioned this a few times here and it's absolutely correct. A friend of mine has an XFR and we were leaving a wedding the other day. Side by side, he obviously makes 500HP / 625Nm and the bulk of his power is in the lower rev range, whereas I make 345 and 380Nm with it being made use of at 6500-8300rpm. On a long stretch of open tarmac our distances closed with only small gaps here and there at higher song. I was fully expecting to be demolished.
The XFR is also about 400kg heavier!talksthetorque said:
Wills2 said:
More like 200kg heavier the e46 M3 convertible weighs around 1750kg.
And that has what to do with the Z4M in the anecdote?
Keep up at the back.
Yeah, how dare you!
But yeah, who needs massive power, when you have such a sweet sweet induction noise? Stick an Eventuri in a 2005 S54, and you've got something that sounds nearly as mean as a CSL. tend to find just cruising around applying mild throttle around 3500rpm just tickles the ears as the intake burbles.
But yeah, who needs massive power, when you have such a sweet sweet induction noise? Stick an Eventuri in a 2005 S54, and you've got something that sounds nearly as mean as a CSL. tend to find just cruising around applying mild throttle around 3500rpm just tickles the ears as the intake burbles.
Edited by robbiekhan on Thursday 21st July 23:36
robbiekhan said:
Yeah, how dare you!
But yeah, who needs massive power, when you have such a sweet sweet induction noise? Stick an Eventuri in a 2005 S54, and you've got something that sounds nearly as mean as a CSL. tend to find just cruising around applying mild throttle around 3500rpm just tickles the ears as the intake burbles.
The Eventuri sound amazing, I just had an AFE on me and it'd still turn heads with the induction nasties. LOVED summer drives with the roof down.But yeah, who needs massive power, when you have such a sweet sweet induction noise? Stick an Eventuri in a 2005 S54, and you've got something that sounds nearly as mean as a CSL. tend to find just cruising around applying mild throttle around 3500rpm just tickles the ears as the intake burbles.
Edited by robbiekhan on Thursday 21st July 23:36
cerb4.5lee said:
I wouldn't completely agree and if you take the E92 M3 as an example...it's a comfortable cruiser first and foremost with all the mod cons for blasting up and down motorways for me.
That's where the problem lies sadly with cars like the M3 and they try to do so many things well...yet end up being a master of none of them.
Jeez - what would you do with your life if you didn't have the E92 M3 to whinge about?That's where the problem lies sadly with cars like the M3 and they try to do so many things well...yet end up being a master of none of them.
Not only are you extremely boring on this subject, you are completely full of carp about it.
The E92 M3 is probably one of the best dual purpose cars ever built, perfectly capable of being the relaxed cruiser, and bloody good on track too.
Get yourself a new mission in life.
Tony B2 said:
The E92 M3 is probably one of the best dual purpose cars ever built, perfectly capable of being the relaxed cruiser, and bloody good on track too.
I can't agree with you regards the track bit, it's 1650kg weight rules it out as a fun car for me, you would also have to be a brave person to go on a track on its standard brakes too...they're s
t! Wills2 said:
It's very true and borne out by my experience with friends on sunny days in the dales sometimes there was 150hp difference between the various cars but on the road the on paper numbers often don't yield the advantage you think you should have.
You need an awful lot more power and often traction to really boss another car.
Okay, to reiterate: Horsepower is (potential) top speed, torque is how quickly you can get there.You need an awful lot more power and often traction to really boss another car.
Fewer gear changes are better.
HTH
ftypical said:
Okay, to reiterate: Horsepower is (potential) top speed, torque is how quickly you can get there.
Fewer gear changes are better.
HTH
Horsepower and torque are intrinsically linked. At the same rpm, a car with more torque has more power, and it is ultimately power which determines acceleration. I suspect you are actually talking about the shape of the torque (and hence power) curves. Fewer gear changes are better.
HTH
Torque is what the engine actually produces.
Power is a figure of merit that indicates how much Work you can do with it.
So: Torque at higher rpm is good as you can exploit gearing to do more Work (hence giving a higher Power figure)
Hence, cars with more Torque may out accelerate you in a particular gear, but if you're prepared to lose your license, that higher Power figure will mean you can go faster (unless you're driving something with the aero of a barn* and they aren't)
Power is a figure of merit that indicates how much Work you can do with it.
So: Torque at higher rpm is good as you can exploit gearing to do more Work (hence giving a higher Power figure)
Hence, cars with more Torque may out accelerate you in a particular gear, but if you're prepared to lose your license, that higher Power figure will mean you can go faster (unless you're driving something with the aero of a barn* and they aren't)
- Pretty much any X model, regardless of whether BMW or the owner has appended an ///M badge...
Convention is that engine output is characterised by two different measurements - torque and power. They each have their uses. Oversimplified torque is what makes a car accelerate and horsepower is what gives it its top speed. Torque isn't as sexy as horsepower. But the old saying that torque is what wins races and horsepower is what sells cars is well founded.
No question torque and bhp are related, after all, hp = (torque * RPM) / 5250 (in imperial units).
No question torque and bhp are related, after all, hp = (torque * RPM) / 5250 (in imperial units).
It's a perception coming from the convention of quoting single peak power and peak torque figures. What people are actually responding to is the spread of power.
Peak power and power at the rpm where peak torque is made would be more meaningful raw figures, but a graph is better still.
The old saw about torque winning races - that's only true in the sense that if everyone is making the same peak power, making more torque than your rivals (and hence power) before you get to peak is an advantage.
Peak power and power at the rpm where peak torque is made would be more meaningful raw figures, but a graph is better still.
The old saw about torque winning races - that's only true in the sense that if everyone is making the same peak power, making more torque than your rivals (and hence power) before you get to peak is an advantage.
ftypical said:
Wills2 said:
It's very true and borne out by my experience with friends on sunny days in the dales sometimes there was 150hp difference between the various cars but on the road the on paper numbers often don't yield the advantage you think you should have.
You need an awful lot more power and often traction to really boss another car.
Okay, to reiterate: Horsepower is (potential) top speed, torque is how quickly you can get there.You need an awful lot more power and often traction to really boss another car.
Fewer gear changes are better.
HTH
What has that got to with my post, seriously? Of course the car with the additional 150hp produced more torque at a higher RPM than the others hence it had more power (911 vs. Boxster. vs. M3)
I wasn't discussing how or when a car makes its power.
Gear changes? We were in either 2nd or 3rd 40-100mph not sure what you're trying to get across there?
HTH....
Wills2 said:
LOL.
What has that got to with my post, seriously? Of course the car with the additional 150hp produced more torque at a higher RPM than the others hence it had more power (911 vs. Boxster. vs. M3)
I wasn't discussing how or when a car makes its power.
Gear changes? We were in either 2nd or 3rd 40-100mph not sure what you're trying to get across there?
HTH....
What has that got to with my post, seriously? Of course the car with the additional 150hp produced more torque at a higher RPM than the others hence it had more power (911 vs. Boxster. vs. M3)
I wasn't discussing how or when a car makes its power.
Gear changes? We were in either 2nd or 3rd 40-100mph not sure what you're trying to get across there?
HTH....
I think they are still quick and more importantly capable of putting a huge grin on your face.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ew2kQuKoQ1k&fe...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ew2kQuKoQ1k&fe...
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