Z4M / E46 M3 - Are they just not that fast?

[Filos Hippos]

I've just bagged myself a SC E46 M3 CS 6MT

And it is bloody fast indeed, not pretty fast, ... but BLOODY fast. And that's coming from a Sagaris/GT3 owner...

Admittedly, some of the previous owners had the (at first I thought uncanny) idea of upgrading it with a ASA intercooled supercharger.

Wasn't so keen on the package when I first SAW it, wanted a FSH standard CS car. I am pretty keen on it after DRIVING it.

SC E46 M3 CS 6MT = Supercharged prettiest series M3 with Competition Package and a 6-speed manual instead of the dreaded SMG on the proper CSL.

[RWD cossie wil]

That looks great! What power is it meant to be running? I've got an ESS 550SC E46M3, it's great fun! I'm seriously considering upgrading the intercooler though, the warm weather seems to make it feel a lot slower..

[Filos Hippos]

Previous owner said it was making 478HP.

Registration says 410HP.

And I don't know. Have you had yours on a dyno? What is it putting out?

Here's what it says on th tin, I don't believe mine is the 550 version but it drives great!

RWD cossie wil said:

That looks great! What power is it meant to be running? I've got an ESS 550SC E46M3, it's great fun! I'm seriously considering upgrading the intercooler though, the warm weather seems to make it feel a lot slower..

[Filos Hippos]

It sure feels like 410 at the wheels...

Filos Hippos said:

Previous owner said it was making 478HP.

Registration says 410HP.

And I don't know. Have you had yours on a dyno? What is it putting out?

Here's what it says on th tin, I don't believe mine is the 550 version but it drives great!

RWD cossie wil said:

That looks great! What power is it meant to be running? I've got an ESS 550SC E46M3, it's great fun! I'm seriously considering upgrading the intercooler though, the warm weather seems to make it feel a lot slower..

[AW10]

RWD cossie wil said:

That looks great! What power is it meant to be running? I've got an ESS 550SC E46M3, it's great fun! I'm seriously considering upgrading the intercooler though, the warm weather seems to make it feel a lot slower..

Can you log the IAT (intake air temp) to see if it's too hot?

[RWD cossie wil]

AW10 said:

RWD cossie wil said:

That looks great! What power is it meant to be running? I've got an ESS 550SC E46M3, it's great fun! I'm seriously considering upgrading the intercooler though, the warm weather seems to make it feel a lot slower..

Can you log the IAT (intake air temp) to see if it's too hot?

Probably, might do it if I decide to keep the car

[MNBrennan]

Beedub said:

Don't agree with that at all never see you right such things about the TVRs that last 30 seconds truly shocking moors, did you know the f12 TDF uses the same tech for the mech valve train and the sodium filled valves.... nothing old hat about this , more done properly, forged crank, forged rods, the head is a work of art on these, ITB, the engine is wonderful, but like all has its issues...

the car maybe isn't that fast by todays standards but the engine is nothing but special, MORE so in todays standards, today we get eco 4 pots with turbos that are just mehhh.... they make performance but no character so, are that they fast in todays performance car world, not really, BUT... what a wonderful ownership experience that for me is still yet to be trumped, the s54 is something truly special, even popping her bonnet makes me smile. The sound, the feel, the mechanical sounds it makes, just lovely.....

i can however say my little 1088kg fiesta ST with some tuning add-ons would give many cars a hard time tbh, but theirs NOTHING special about that eco 1.6 and its borwarner turbo. But that wasn't the original question.

lets not forget... than can make quite abit more too with some more spent.

Edited by Beedub on Monday 6th June 21:46

Did I see you at Zed Fest?

Unfortunately I *only* have a s50 engined z3m coupe. What I can say is that I have test driven a new M3, M6 and M235i and whilst they are undoubtedly quicker, they don't have the old straigh six charm. High revving, NA and sound fantastic when in the upper reaches of the rev range. Oh and manual with driver involvement.

Unfortunately the cars I drive were quick but it didn't feel like I was enabling it to be quick. I just tapped a paddle and shot up the speedo. Not my bag really

[csmith319]

Wills2 said:

It's very true and borne out by my experience with friends on sunny days in the dales sometimes there was 150hp difference between the various cars but on the road the on paper numbers often don't yield the advantage you think you should have.

You need an awful lot more power and often traction to really boss another car.

100% agree - a few years ago I did a few trips on the autobahn with friends in their E60 M5 and Porsche 997.1 S. I was in a Z4 3.0Si - so I was a fair bit down on power on both... up to 80-100 there was very little visibly in it - above 100 and especially above 120 was where a clear gap became very obvious!

The M5 and Porshe were pretty much tied until up to much bigger speeds where the bigger power of the M5 showed.

However... Regardless of the visual difference, the bigger power can give a much bigger shove in the dyno-butt!

I still want a Z4M...

[arcticGT]

Got to be honest my charged M3 never really felt that fast until it was running almost a bar of boost, and that needs lower compression. I certainly would never spend the money doing it again.

[Filos Hippos]

Is it an ASA-type centrifugal charger or a Roots-blower?

arcticGT said:

Got to be honest my charged M3 never really felt that fast until it was running almost a bar of boost, and that needs lower compression. I certainly would never spend the money doing it again.

[zainster]

csmith319 said:

Wills2 said:

It's very true and borne out by my experience with friends on sunny days in the dales sometimes there was 150hp difference between the various cars but on the road the on paper numbers often don't yield the advantage you think you should have.

You need an awful lot more power and often traction to really boss another car.

100% agree - a few years ago I did a few trips on the autobahn with friends in their E60 M5 and Porsche 997.1 S. I was in a Z4 3.0Si - so I was a fair bit down on power on both... up to 80-100 there was very little visibly in it - above 100 and especially above 120 was where a clear gap became very obvious!

The M5 and Porshe were pretty much tied until up to much bigger speeds where the bigger power of the M5 showed.

However... Regardless of the visual difference, the bigger power can give a much bigger shove in the dyno-butt!

I still want a Z4M...

That E60 M5 must of been broken because if it wasn't, no way a Z4 3.0 si can keep up close to those speeds. It might keep it close upto about 50 then bye bye Z4.

The Porsche 997.1 (assuming it's a C2S) will struggle to keep up once you start approaching 3 figure speeds against the M5.

[csmith319]

zainster said:

That E60 M5 must of been broken because if it wasn't, no way a Z4 3.0 si can keep up close to those speeds. It might keep it close upto about 50 then bye bye Z4.

The Porsche 997.1 (assuming it's a C2S) will struggle to keep up once you start approaching 3 figure speeds against the M5.

I didn't say keep up - I said there's not much in it visually... I'm not saying it was any where near as fast but at lower speeds where weight makes a difference and the visual gap isn't that great - it's easy to say less powerful cars keep up - when they actually don't. It's at higher speeds where isn't most obvious - but the shove from the more powerful car is obvious when you're in it regardless of the that visual gap.

The C2s kept up pretty easily to 150 - all drivers pretty competent as well.

[zainster]

csmith319 said:

zainster said:

That E60 M5 must of been broken because if it wasn't, no way a Z4 3.0 si can keep up close to those speeds. It might keep it close upto about 50 then bye bye Z4.

The Porsche 997.1 (assuming it's a C2S) will struggle to keep up once you start approaching 3 figure speeds against the M5.

I didn't say keep up - I said there's not much in it visually... I'm not saying it was any where near as fast but at lower speeds where weight makes a difference and the visual gap isn't that great - it's easy to say less powerful cars keep up - when they actually don't. It's at higher speeds where isn't most obvious - but the shove from the more powerful car is obvious when you're in it regardless of the that visual gap.

The C2s kept up pretty easily to 150 - all drivers pretty competent as well.

Not much visually in it? ... from 0 to 100 the E60 M5 is roughly 4.5 secs faster than the Z4 3.0si which translates to around a 700 feet gap!
I think I'd notice such a gap as big as that!

As for the C2S (now changed to easily keeping up with the M5?) I also find hard to believe. I won't refer to my own personal experience but Autocars tested times for both from 0 to 150mph and the M5 was timed almost 7 seconds faster than the 997.1 C2S! Thats not the 997 easily keeping up, that's it being blown away! lol

[csmith319]

zainster said:

Not much visually in it? ... from 0 to 100 the E60 M5 is roughly 4.5 secs faster than the Z4 3.0si which translates to around a 700 feet gap!
I think I'd notice such a gap as big as that!

As for the C2S (now changed to easily keeping up with the M5?) I also find hard to believe. I won't refer to my own personal experience but Autocars tested times for both from 0 to 150mph and the M5 was timed almost 7 seconds faster than the 997.1 C2S! Thats not the 997 easily keeping up, that's it being blown away! lol

Ok - so 700ft would mean the the M5 was travelling at 100mph + for those 4.5 seconds - so it wouldn't have been as it's still accelerating... Plus we weren't drag racing from a stand still... Rather on an autobahn and starting from 50mph.

I'm sure this will mean you'll have another view on it - but I'm simply stating what happened when I was with friends doing this. I've done it with other cars which included E60 M5s and same deal.

As I've already said, I'm not saying that something like a Z4 is suddenly as fast as an M5, only that at lower speeds the visual difference isn't what you'd expect. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less.

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[zainster]

csmith319 said:

zainster said:

Not much visually in it? ... from 0 to 100 the E60 M5 is roughly 4.5 secs faster than the Z4 3.0si which translates to around a 700 feet gap!
I think I'd notice such a gap as big as that!

As for the C2S (now changed to easily keeping up with the M5?) I also find hard to believe. I won't refer to my own personal experience but Autocars tested times for both from 0 to 150mph and the M5 was timed almost 7 seconds faster than the 997.1 C2S! Thats not the 997 easily keeping up, that's it being blown away! lol

Ok - so 700ft would mean the the M5 was travelling at 100mph + for those 4.5 seconds - so it wouldn't have been as it's still accelerating... Plus we weren't drag racing from a stand still... Rather on an autobahn and starting from 50mph.

I'm sure this will mean you'll have another view on it - but I'm simply stating what happened when I was with friends doing this. I've done it with other cars which included E60 M5s and same deal.

As I've already said, I'm not saying that something like a Z4 is suddenly as fast as an M5, only that at lower speeds the visual difference isn't what you'd expect. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less.

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That's the gap between the 2 with both having reached 100. I know you're not saying the Z4 is as fast as M5, I agree with you visually not much in it it but I thought the 80/100 was dubious and more like upto 50ish. After 50 or so, you'll see a pretty big gap appear very quickly! I have also never seen any instance where any motoring magazine recorded a time where a 997.1 C2S showed it could live with an M5 to 150. Anyway, all good fun :-)

[AW10]

For some stats see:

http://fastestlaps.com/models/bmw-z4-3-0i
http://fastestlaps.com/models/porsche-911-carrera-...
http://fastestlaps.com/models/bmw-m5

But bear in mind using a rolling start from 50mph the choice of starting gear can make a big difference. All it needs is for the Z4 to be in 2nd and the M5 to be in 5th or even 6th and the results can be surprisingly different.

[zainster]

AW10 said:

For some stats see:

http://fastestlaps.com/models/bmw-z4-3-0i
http://fastestlaps.com/models/porsche-911-carrera-...
http://fastestlaps.com/models/bmw-m5

But bear in mind using a rolling start from 50mph the choice of starting gear can make a big difference. All it needs is for the Z4 to be in 2nd and the M5 to be in 5th or even 6th and the results can be surprisingly different.

I agree if you have either a incompetent driver or a poorly running car then yes of course it can be a different outcome against a car that's alot less bhp.

But in the instance I was replying to, the poster suggested the M5 was fine and driver was competent hence why I doubted it.

[AW10]

Yes, but's there's competence and then there's realising that someone is going to draw a conclusion from an impromptu drag race and that you need to be in maximum attack mode to preserve the honour and reputation of the E60 M5.

[zainster]

AW10 said:

Yes, but's there's competence and then there's realising that someone is going to draw a conclusion from an impromptu drag race and that you need to be in maximum attack mode to preserve the honour and reputation of the E60 M5.

Haha! Yes, I like the way you ended that sir, indeed its honour must be protected!

[hoppo4.2]

Just last week.i picked up an e46 m3 cab.
Iv had a few coupes in the past am was considering letting the e60 go and using it for a bit.

Now the problem with this is the m3 FEELS
Slow. Now I no its not a slow car it's just a comparison thing. However it also FEELS much older.

I'm just not sure which to keep so I'm keeping both for a few months to see which I prefer.

I know I prefer the 30mpg I got out of the m3 on the run home though