Z4M / E46 M3 - Are they just not that fast?
Discussion
Have had two experiences, one in line with what you're saying and one that surprised me afterwards.
1. E46 M3 vs 2014 Fiesta ST 237bhp/280ftlbs
From a rolling start 40-50mph, the fiesta kept up (was slowly losing ground), until around 90-100.
If he puts his foot down when in front of me, on boost, I struggle to keep up until we start getting into the 90+ range.
2. E46 M3 vs 2015 Focus ST 290bhp/380ftlbs
After being given a run for my money by the Fiesta, decided to do a rolling start (properly this time, 40mph second gear for me, 3rd for him) with a friends tuned Focus ST.
Was 99% sure he'd have me after the lesser Fiesta gave me a scare, but the M3 seemed to pull away better in this scenario, and by 60-70 the gap was noticeable, by 100 the gap was large.
Did this run 3 times, same result each time.
This was using a 2003 M3 SMG, all on private race track.
The Fiesta is really impressive, did multiple pulls in a 297hp 350Z and they were neck and neck from 40-110, with the 350z just starting to edge it out around 110-130. Again, we tried this multiple times. In fact, at lower speeds the Fiesta would start to creep ahead.
1. E46 M3 vs 2014 Fiesta ST 237bhp/280ftlbs
From a rolling start 40-50mph, the fiesta kept up (was slowly losing ground), until around 90-100.
If he puts his foot down when in front of me, on boost, I struggle to keep up until we start getting into the 90+ range.
2. E46 M3 vs 2015 Focus ST 290bhp/380ftlbs
After being given a run for my money by the Fiesta, decided to do a rolling start (properly this time, 40mph second gear for me, 3rd for him) with a friends tuned Focus ST.
Was 99% sure he'd have me after the lesser Fiesta gave me a scare, but the M3 seemed to pull away better in this scenario, and by 60-70 the gap was noticeable, by 100 the gap was large.
Did this run 3 times, same result each time.
This was using a 2003 M3 SMG, all on private race track.
The Fiesta is really impressive, did multiple pulls in a 297hp 350Z and they were neck and neck from 40-110, with the 350z just starting to edge it out around 110-130. Again, we tried this multiple times. In fact, at lower speeds the Fiesta would start to creep ahead.
So I have a S54 engined Z3MC. Over the 10 years of ownership I've seen the bar for hot hatch and regular motors get higher and higher and somewhat irritatingly, better performance is widely available for not a lot of money.
But are any of the cars you or anyone with half brain covet really about performance alone? I can enjoy the MC sitting in traffic going nowhere, or just stretching the cover over the back end when it's in the garage. Pretty sure I wouldn't feel the same about a tweaked Astra...
My G-shock also keeps marginally better time than my 50's Rolex but you can guess which is the daily wearer.
So I've not really answered your question though. I think it's perfectly fast enough, backed up with a blinding overall ownership experience - which I expect is similar for the Z4MC. You could swap that for more performance, but at the expense of the soulful stuff, which might or might not be worth a bean to you of course.
But are any of the cars you or anyone with half brain covet really about performance alone? I can enjoy the MC sitting in traffic going nowhere, or just stretching the cover over the back end when it's in the garage. Pretty sure I wouldn't feel the same about a tweaked Astra...
My G-shock also keeps marginally better time than my 50's Rolex but you can guess which is the daily wearer.
So I've not really answered your question though. I think it's perfectly fast enough, backed up with a blinding overall ownership experience - which I expect is similar for the Z4MC. You could swap that for more performance, but at the expense of the soulful stuff, which might or might not be worth a bean to you of course.
Edited by Dr Nookie on Tuesday 31st May 13:28
5678 said:
Had a play with an e46 m3 yesterday in my m135i.
Expected it to be level pegging. But consistently pulled away from him every time. Not "left for dead" stuff, but a good 50+ meters by the time we got to three figures.
Yeah I was suprised to see my little M135i LCI pull away from an E46 M3. In power terms there isn't much in it but I suspect the torque is available much earlier in the turbo 1 series. I was suprised to see a Seat Cupra keep up with me (although in comfort mode). I'd expected to pull away from it quite easily. Don't know if it was modified or not. Expected it to be level pegging. But consistently pulled away from him every time. Not "left for dead" stuff, but a good 50+ meters by the time we got to three figures.
29wkaj said:
Have had two experiences, one in line with what you're saying and one that surprised me afterwards.
1. E46 M3 vs 2014 Fiesta ST 237bhp/280ftlbs
From a rolling start 40-50mph, the fiesta kept up (was slowly losing ground), until around 90-100.
If he puts his foot down when in front of me, on boost, I struggle to keep up until we start getting into the 90+ range.
2. E46 M3 vs 2015 Focus ST 290bhp/380ftlbs
After being given a run for my money by the Fiesta, decided to do a rolling start (properly this time, 40mph second gear for me, 3rd for him) with a friends tuned Focus ST.
Was 99% sure he'd have me after the lesser Fiesta gave me a scare, but the M3 seemed to pull away better in this scenario, and by 60-70 the gap was noticeable, by 100 the gap was large.
Did this run 3 times, same result each time.
This was using a 2003 M3 SMG, all on private race track.
The Fiesta is really impressive, did multiple pulls in a 297hp 350Z and they were neck and neck from 40-110, with the 350z just starting to edge it out around 110-130. Again, we tried this multiple times. In fact, at lower speeds the Fiesta would start to creep ahead.
1. E46 M3 vs 2014 Fiesta ST 237bhp/280ftlbs
From a rolling start 40-50mph, the fiesta kept up (was slowly losing ground), until around 90-100.
If he puts his foot down when in front of me, on boost, I struggle to keep up until we start getting into the 90+ range.
2. E46 M3 vs 2015 Focus ST 290bhp/380ftlbs
After being given a run for my money by the Fiesta, decided to do a rolling start (properly this time, 40mph second gear for me, 3rd for him) with a friends tuned Focus ST.
Was 99% sure he'd have me after the lesser Fiesta gave me a scare, but the M3 seemed to pull away better in this scenario, and by 60-70 the gap was noticeable, by 100 the gap was large.
Did this run 3 times, same result each time.
This was using a 2003 M3 SMG, all on private race track.
The Fiesta is really impressive, did multiple pulls in a 297hp 350Z and they were neck and neck from 40-110, with the 350z just starting to edge it out around 110-130. Again, we tried this multiple times. In fact, at lower speeds the Fiesta would start to creep ahead.
No disrespect to the fords, but they are 'just' fords, and in fairness not even comparable for the ownership experience.
The fiesta could be a 300hp 4x4 i still wouldnt want to swap a hand built N/A M3 for one....ever.
If i wanted a cheap turbo car i'd just buy a 2003 subaru wrx turbo and remap it...i mean how much are they now £4500?
For me its about the ownership experience and M cars feel more special.
I'm also sure a focus ST is faster than a RS500 cosworth....but which would you really want to own long term?
I would be interested to see how these hot fords coped with a standing start, not a rolling start? when fwd and no boost would an issue....
Andy
Dr Nookie said:
So I have a S54 engined Z3MC. Over the 10 years of ownership I've seen the bar for hot hatch and regular motors get higher and higher and somewhat irritatingly, better performance is widely available for not a lot of money.
But are any of the cars you or anyone with half brain covet really about performance alone? I can enjoy the MC sitting in traffic going nowhere, or just stretching the cover over the back end when it's in the garage. Pretty sure I wouldn't feel the same about a tweaked Astra...
My G-shock also keeps marginally better time than my 50's Rolex but you can guess which is the daily wearer.
So I've not really answered your question though. I think it's perfectly fast enough, backed up with a blinding overall ownership experience - which I expect is similar for the Z4MC. You could swap that for more performance, but at the expense of the soulful stuff, which might or might not be worth a bean to you of course.
But are any of the cars you or anyone with half brain covet really about performance alone? I can enjoy the MC sitting in traffic going nowhere, or just stretching the cover over the back end when it's in the garage. Pretty sure I wouldn't feel the same about a tweaked Astra...
My G-shock also keeps marginally better time than my 50's Rolex but you can guess which is the daily wearer.
So I've not really answered your question though. I think it's perfectly fast enough, backed up with a blinding overall ownership experience - which I expect is similar for the Z4MC. You could swap that for more performance, but at the expense of the soulful stuff, which might or might not be worth a bean to you of course.
Edited by Dr Nookie on Tuesday 31st May 13:28
Very well put sir.
Andy
toon10 said:
Yeah I was suprised to see my little M135i LCI pull away from an E46 M3. In power terms there isn't much in it but I suspect the torque is available much earlier in the turbo 1 series. I was suprised to see a Seat Cupra keep up with me (although in comfort mode). I'd expected to pull away from it quite easily. Don't know if it was modified or not.
Creating a 50 metre gap with an M3 before three figures were reached seems far fetched. And the torque thing is not really relevant if both are redlining each gear.They are roughly the same in a straight line, with the 135i on a track getting out of shape round corners, esp on track,(with a duller power delivery being subjective).
I was thinking the same thing albeit with the 8 speed zf it wouldn't take much error for the manual s54 to lose out, but a thread like this was bound to offer some exaggeration into the mix. High revving naturally aspirated cars aren't slow in the right hands, and way more rewarding than a turbo with no top end.
toon10 said:
Yeah I was suprised to see my little M135i LCI pull away from an E46 M3. In power terms there isn't much in it but I suspect the torque is available much earlier in the turbo 1 series. I was suprised to see a Seat Cupra keep up with me (although in comfort mode). I'd expected to pull away from it quite easily. Don't know if it was modified or not.
I was surprised how quick the M135i's were the other day. Had a run against one in my E92 M3, and I would say when the 135 is on boost there is nothing in it (i.e. torque). The difference was at the top end of each gear (6.5k-8.3k) where i would create the gap.The difference in straight line speed/acceleration is not massive between the standard cars, but come to some twists and the M cars are far better poised for slick cornering, of course you can mod a 135I M135I etc etc add a LSD and remap and i'm sure they are very good and really pushing the M3's even the E92, its each to their own really, i'd prefer to have a proper M car than a mapped up 135i with a birds LSD and and a load of mods.
Given the age of the E46 M3 (launched 16 years ago) its taken a long time for the world to catch up.
What everyone seems to often do is compare a standard M3 with all these modded cars, what no one has really considered is you can still improve a M3 with mods like a supercharger or turbo kit, and a whole host of chassis mods etc...the N/A S54 engine can be built in excess of 600hp and then what do you compare it with? not an ST or mapped astra? or golf R?
For a standard 16 year old design it does very well in making its point against much newer 2015/16 technology..
Andy
Given the age of the E46 M3 (launched 16 years ago) its taken a long time for the world to catch up.
What everyone seems to often do is compare a standard M3 with all these modded cars, what no one has really considered is you can still improve a M3 with mods like a supercharger or turbo kit, and a whole host of chassis mods etc...the N/A S54 engine can be built in excess of 600hp and then what do you compare it with? not an ST or mapped astra? or golf R?
For a standard 16 year old design it does very well in making its point against much newer 2015/16 technology..
Andy
0836whimper said:
toon10 said:
Yeah I was suprised to see my little M135i LCI pull away from an E46 M3. In power terms there isn't much in it but I suspect the torque is available much earlier in the turbo 1 series. I was suprised to see a Seat Cupra keep up with me (although in comfort mode). I'd expected to pull away from it quite easily. Don't know if it was modified or not.
Creating a 50 metre gap with an M3 before three figures were reached seems far fetched. And the torque thing is not really relevant if both are redlining each gear.They are roughly the same in a straight line, with the 135i on a track getting out of shape round corners, esp on track,(with a duller power delivery being subjective).
The only way that kind of gap occurred is if the M135i was auto and the E46 was driven by a mong in a manual who changes up at 5000rpm!!
chrisb92 said:
Absolutely no way a 50 metre gap!! I have a Golf GTi (210 bhp 1315kg) and raced an E46 and it left me once we got to 70/80 ish MPH. I've also raced an M135i and I would doubt the M135i would have a 50 metre lead over me by 100, let alone an E46 M3. 100 MPH comes around quickly even in the Golf.
The only way that kind of gap occurred is if the M135i was auto and the E46 was driven by a mong in a manual who changes up at 5000rpm!!
The only way that kind of gap occurred is if the M135i was auto and the E46 was driven by a mong in a manual who changes up at 5000rpm!!
ha ha, must say all of these cars can be fast or slow depending who drives them, i mean if you drive a civic type R off cam then you'll get hammered by a TDI corsa! but keep it in the VTEC zones and they are pretty quick.
Its much the same with a car like the E46 M3, and the E92 they need revs for the power to be delivered, if you know how to keep it on song it is very quick.
all the power is delivered at over 5000rpm, peak power being delivered at 8000rpm for the E46
Andy
Iv not read every reply so may have already been mentioned,
Z4m will be a few years old by now and could quite possibly be down on power, MY57 lci 130i with circa 50kmiles on was approx 30bhp down on power. Never got to the bottom of it as I sold it. But have read a lot about the inlet being choked up with carbon deposits,
Just a thought
Z4m will be a few years old by now and could quite possibly be down on power, MY57 lci 130i with circa 50kmiles on was approx 30bhp down on power. Never got to the bottom of it as I sold it. But have read a lot about the inlet being choked up with carbon deposits,
Just a thought
andyman_2006 said:
No disrespect to the fords, but they are 'just' fords, and in fairness not even comparable for the ownership experience.
The fiesta could be a 300hp 4x4 i still wouldnt want to swap a hand built N/A M3 for one....ever.
If i wanted a cheap turbo car i'd just buy a 2003 subaru wrx turbo and remap it...i mean how much are they now £4500?
For me its about the ownership experience and M cars feel more special.
I'm also sure a focus ST is faster than a RS500 cosworth....but which would you really want to own long term?
I would be interested to see how these hot fords coped with a standing start, not a rolling start? when fwd and no boost would an issue....
Andy
Still make all the Ford jokes, but can now appreciate them more.
rb5er said:
I guess it takes a lot more power to really make a big margin of difference.
This. It takes a lot more power to really boss another car on the road, 80-100hp extra in real world conditions isn't really going to allow you to do much more than pull away a bit, then suddenly you're both going too fast and you back off.
mwstewart said:
And they never really made that figure either from what I read - in perfect working condition most M's and Z4M's dyno between 315 and 330.
This also comes down to how well it's been maintained too. My M3 still makes 338BHP, and I've got an Evolve remap booked on Monday so am looking forward to seeing what it makes then since I've had the Eventuri installed for almost a year and noticed some good gains in engine response without a remap in the mod revs. 0836whimper said:
Creating a 50 metre gap with an M3 before three figures were reached seems far fetched. They are roughly the same in a straight line,
Sadly they aren't roughly the same in a straight line.Tuners aren't usually prone to exaggerating the power that stock engines make, it reduces the impact of any gains generated by their tuning efforts. Reputable tuners, such as Evolve, have measured more than 340 bhp on stock 135is. It would be interesting to hear if Vixpy1 has had one on the rollers ?
If the M135i makes more peak power than an E46 M3, has a fatter power band and weighs 125kg less, tts not surprising that the 135i is faster. E46 M3 can get to a ton in the high 11s and a stock M135i is capable of high 10s.
M135i is is approx. 10% quicker and quick enough to open up a decent gap by 100mph. 50m seems like a lot to me too but 135i is faster..........simple as that.
I've not owned a 135i but have run a 335i and a lightened E36 EVO, driven E46 M3s so have reasonable grasp of their relative pace; the E46 M3 is still a quickish car but the game has moved on.
A bog standard 1370Kg Seat Leon 2.0TSi FR+ weighs 200kg less than the E46 but with this http://www.superchips.co.uk/curves/LEONFR20TSi211p... engine it is going to give an the M3 a very good run for the money. A standard Mazda 3 MPS is likely to be quicker.
I'd rather have the M3 all day long.....there is far more to owning a car than outright, straight line, pace.
Edited by Crackie on Monday 6th June 09:18
0836whimper said:
Creating a 50 metre gap with an M3 before three figures were reached seems far fetched. And the torque thing is not really relevant if both are redlining each gear.
They are roughly the same in a straight line, with the 135i on a track getting out of shape round corners, esp on track,(with a duller power delivery being subjective).
They are roughly the same in a straight line, with the 135i on a track getting out of shape round corners, esp on track,(with a duller power delivery being subjective).
I agree with you whimper...
I also think the straight line power/torque comparisons are slightly pointless...
We all know on a rolling run a turbo car (any one mapped up or not) with likely match or exceed the torque from the N/A engine, and this creating a gap before 100mph....there are many many varibles, like what gear was the M3 driver in? did he react at the same time? even tyre quality? all contributes to how well the car performs. The S54 engine needs to be worked very hard to extract its best (Part of why we own them) and if the M3 driver was off the cams, in a high ish gear, and the 135i was already on boost, well its bound to pull away...but 50M....
i've had numerous run ins with 335i's and 135i's and remapped VXr's and St's and i can tell you now 50M before 100mph is not true. If you know how to drive the M3 keep it in the high end rev band keep shifting gears it is a very quick car, far quicker than any mapped up VXR (I know i had one) and as for the M135i/235i they might be quick on boost, in a straight line and with a ZF 8 speed box....but they are pretty boring to drive, and its for this reason why i didnt end up buying one (i tried trust me, wanted to reduce running costs, and use as daily drive, would have sold M3) but i just couldnt do it in the end it came down to more than 2 turbos and some extra torque and a newer reg plate!
So i kept the M3 and bought a bmw 1 series coupe diesel for the daily. Best of both, I just couldnt part with the M3, and once you have owned one for a few years you'll get what i mean, getting out of it, into a M235I and then back into the M3.....it was worlds apart, the M3 feels alive all the time, its hard to explain unless you try back to back, and it really depends on what you want, but for a 16year old car its still incredible when compared to modern bmw's. Last of the breed is the E92 V8 - buy them whilst you can and they are still relativly cheap, it wont stay this way forever.
i'm in no way disrespecting these turbo cars far from it (still have an Audi TT) and they are 'ok' but just ok, not comparable with a N/A proper M-car thats all, they are very good fast, economical daily drivers, and thats ok if thats what you want/need.
The M235i i borrowed for a day with a ZF box was V.good, but put simply pretty souless, just another car didnt feel like anything special (to me anyway) and wasnt worth the £38K asking price in my opinion.
It's a good old debate though and it'll no doubt be going on forever! all i know is which car i'm going to be keeping!!
Andy
andyman_2006 said:
The S54 engine needs to be worked very hard to extract its best (Part of why we own them)
i've had numerous run ins with 335i's and 135i's, 50M before 100mph is not true. If you know how to drive the M3 keep it in the high end rev band keep shifting gears it is a very quick car,
It's a good old debate though and it'll no doubt be going on forever! all i know is which car i'm going to be keeping!!
Andy
Andy, I'm pleased you like your E46 and understand you are passionate about it i've had numerous run ins with 335i's and 135i's, 50M before 100mph is not true. If you know how to drive the M3 keep it in the high end rev band keep shifting gears it is a very quick car,
It's a good old debate though and it'll no doubt be going on forever! all i know is which car i'm going to be keeping!!
Andy
however the OP's thread title asked " Are they just not that fast" and the answer is no not any more.An E46 m3 is fractions quicker than a stock 335i, fractions slower than a stock 135i and a fair bit behind an M135i. There are plenty of road tests, Youtube vids and people with timing slips from Santa Pod, and other drag strips, to back all that up. Its reasonable to assume these cars are being pushed extremely hard, in the correct gear, on cam etc etc.
Power to weight matters and an M135i is usefully higher than an E46 M3.......add in the fact that the M135 has a quicker shifting box and that explains why most road tests achieved around 11.8 seconds for an E46s get to 100mph 11.8 seconds and M135is do the same in less than 11.0.
As I said earlier I'd have an S54 engine over an N55 any day; however regarding pace, which is what the thread is about, the E46 is "just not that fast"
Is there's any evidence or proof to the contrary ?
Crackie said:
Andy, I'm pleased you like your E46 and understand you are passionate about it however the OP's thread title asked " Are they just not that fast" and the answer is no not any more.
An E46 m3 is fractions quicker than a stock 335i, fractions slower than a stock 135i and a fair bit behind an M135i. There are plenty of road tests, Youtube vids and people with timing slips from Santa Pod, and other drag strips, to back all that up. Its reasonable to assume these cars are being pushed extremely hard, in the correct gear, on cam etc etc.
Power to weight matters and an M135i is usefully higher than an E46 M3.......add in the fact that the M135 has a quicker shifting box and that explains why most road tests achieved around 11.8 seconds for an E46s get to 100mph 11.8 seconds and M135is do the same in less than 11.0.
As I said earlier I'd have an S54 engine over an N55 any day; however regarding pace, which is what the thread is about, the E46 is "just not that fast"
Is there's any evidence or proof to the contrary ?
Wrong. That is not the answer since there isn't an answer and this is about discussion. It is your opinion that a 300+ bhp car that isn't terribly heavy 'isn't that fast', it does not mean you are right or I am right. however the OP's thread title asked " Are they just not that fast" and the answer is no not any more.An E46 m3 is fractions quicker than a stock 335i, fractions slower than a stock 135i and a fair bit behind an M135i. There are plenty of road tests, Youtube vids and people with timing slips from Santa Pod, and other drag strips, to back all that up. Its reasonable to assume these cars are being pushed extremely hard, in the correct gear, on cam etc etc.
Power to weight matters and an M135i is usefully higher than an E46 M3.......add in the fact that the M135 has a quicker shifting box and that explains why most road tests achieved around 11.8 seconds for an E46s get to 100mph 11.8 seconds and M135is do the same in less than 11.0.
As I said earlier I'd have an S54 engine over an N55 any day; however regarding pace, which is what the thread is about, the E46 is "just not that fast"
Is there's any evidence or proof to the contrary ?
I personally think it's quick and they are great things to drive and of course many modern cars are AS FAST, it does not mean the e46 m3 is slow either.
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