Discussion
andyman_2006 said:
SebringMan said:
Forums can be a dangerous place, a little like the Daily Mail. If you go onto some forums you will think:
-HGs will go
-SMG pumps don't do more than 50,000 miles without exploding to bits
-Boot floors crack by simply breathing on them.
TBH, part of the above is preventing me buying an B7 RS4 ; they make an M3 look cheap to run in many respects!
While the above are more of an issue with an M3 than other cars how long is a piece of string? IIRC there is a CSL on M3Cutters with 210,000 miles still on the original HG. Likewise, some owners have more than 150,000 miles on the car and still have their original pump.
If I believed half of what the forums said I would not have bought half of the cars over the years that I did, and some of them came with bigger issues that half of the pub folk talked about over others. They included the:
-Triumph Stag (Do I really need to go on further?)
-Peugeot 106, 205 and 306 GTi (the latter especially came with a list almost as long as the M3 to go wrong!)
-Porsche 944 Turbo (I did buy a High mileage car mind you, which had everything done to it; I still regret getting rid).
-Alfa Romeo 147 JTD ; it's one of the best cars I have owned!
Conversely, one of the worst cars I have owned is a B6 Passat, something people will say never goes wrong,
-HGs will go
-SMG pumps don't do more than 50,000 miles without exploding to bits
-Boot floors crack by simply breathing on them.
TBH, part of the above is preventing me buying an B7 RS4 ; they make an M3 look cheap to run in many respects!
While the above are more of an issue with an M3 than other cars how long is a piece of string? IIRC there is a CSL on M3Cutters with 210,000 miles still on the original HG. Likewise, some owners have more than 150,000 miles on the car and still have their original pump.
If I believed half of what the forums said I would not have bought half of the cars over the years that I did, and some of them came with bigger issues that half of the pub folk talked about over others. They included the:
-Triumph Stag (Do I really need to go on further?)
-Peugeot 106, 205 and 306 GTi (the latter especially came with a list almost as long as the M3 to go wrong!)
-Porsche 944 Turbo (I did buy a High mileage car mind you, which had everything done to it; I still regret getting rid).
-Alfa Romeo 147 JTD ; it's one of the best cars I have owned!
Conversely, one of the worst cars I have owned is a B6 Passat, something people will say never goes wrong,
I do agree often the internet and forums can be a dangerous places.
However others and myself included here are literally speaking from experience, it would be very foolish to ignore the actual experiences others have encountered during many years of ownership and then purchase with higher expectations that nothing goes wrong with them.
I think some of us owners (had mine nearly 10 years) who have had all of the issues we listed, and paid the price to resolve them, are simply aiming to set the expectations of anyone looking to get into ownership, i think fore warned is fore armed, if they dont have any of these issues and car runs to 210K miles with no issues then brilliant but at least they can say they were prepared. There is nothing worse than buying something with high expectation, and then getting a bill for £3000 on top of the purchase price of £10K (which might be their whole budget at that time) for what are in fairness well documented and very real issues with these cars especially as they age further.
I dont think the aim of our feedback or comments is to try put anyone off buying, but simply to open their eyes, set their expectations before and post purchase, which in turn may help them budget for the possibility some of this stuff 'might' happen.
Andy
110% agree with Andy. no one here is trying to scare anyone off - im speaking from experience. i went in with my eyes open and although its been an expensive ownership (some £6k in 2.5 years - though some of it on choice mods) - i wouldnt say anything against the E46 M3. i firmly believe i will be back into one once ive scratched this V8 itch that i have.
there are countless stories of people picking them up for fiesta money and then getting handed a huge bill, bodging it or ignoring it then selling it on to some unsuspecting buyer.
there are countless stories of people picking them up for fiesta money and then getting handed a huge bill, bodging it or ignoring it then selling it on to some unsuspecting buyer.
crankedup said:
That's a fair old list but no more than I should expect from a car that will be around 14 years young! I will certainly bear in mind those issues when I go inspecting, which is likely very soon.
If you find a well maintained example, then expect strong money to be commanded by the seller as a lot (if not all) of the listed issues will have been seen to already. You might pay a bit more to buy the car, but you'd end up saving more by not having to have those things done out of your own pocket later.Mine has 88k on now and I bought it at 61K, it has none of the issues listed still, but has had the DSC pressure sensors replaced (£90 each + labour) at around 70K, these will go randomly, and a classic indicator is the DSC and ABS lights coming on amber at the same time. Diagnostic will show which triggered the warning.
Propshaft bolts can also work loose over time, so those should be checked from time to time, common symptom is a vibration through the cabin at above city speeds but below NSL speeds.
S54 is a great engine with oodles of character, treat it well and you'll always have a smile on your face climbing the revs. And if you decide to open up the intake options and go for a carbon box, then the smiles get even bigger as the noise is sublime from 3000rpm when accelerating.
I've spent just over 10k in 2 years ownership on my car, although this includes all costs (servicing, select tasteful mods under the hood, a full respray, as well as paint repairs to bumpers after being scratched by people in carparks, alloy refurb, new set of discs, pads and tyres... you get the idea. Also preventative maintenance and cosmetic replacement items to freshen up items that wear with mileage such as leather etc.
For a lot of OEM parts keep an eye on the usual BMW sources for discounts. Some BMW dealers have their own eBay stores, I got a full set of discs for a shade over £600 last year along with sensors. Pads I didn't opt in for as I upgraded to the better (but cheaper) PFC Z-Rated pads.
Edited by robbiekhan on Sunday 20th November 22:47
crankedup said:
Thank you, plenty of good advise in your post which I will be heeding. When I find a car that I want to have a closer look at I will certainly be inspecting the past invoices very carefully. All in all I have been very well advised by all posters. Thanks everybody.
Some final points worth adding.
I would inspect the car more carefully than the invoices, its well know many main dealers who 'didn't do' Tappets invoiced for the rocker gaskets to give the impression tappets were done, it's a really bad area to prove though. But you can hear if tappets are out they get noisy from cold, and stay noisy when warm. The only way to be 100% certain is to have them checked which will cost you around £300. If they are out of spec and need adjusting a shim kit is needed (your first job to find a indy with a full shim kit) Just make sure the condition of the car matches the supposed work invoiced, if not then chip the seller or dealer on price so you can get this work done yourself.
Ask any retailer (or garage) selling one if you can look under the car, get it on a ramp you can then check a few things normally unseen without. If they wont, then ask why not?
I recently went to view an 2012 Audi A1 diesel at a Mitsubishi dealers, and they offered to let me see under it on the ramp.
Also ask if they mind having it sent to a bmw indy for an inspection for £200 they will give the car a good health check and point out any 'issues' this can be used to either bargain on price, or agree the issues are fixed prior to collection/purchase.
Its always worth asking, you have nothing to lose. The inspection could be the best £200 you spend, and you could ask the garage/dealer inspecting it to inspect rear sub frame, and do an extended VANOS test (better than nothing) you could also ask for a leak down test to be done. These inspection results might help you decide.
Having had my car nearly 10 years, I've learnt a lot about these cars, so If you want any further info just PM me. Always happy to help.
Anyway good luck searching. Hope you find what you want.
Andy
andyman_2006 said:
Some final points worth adding.
I would inspect the car more carefully than the invoices, its well know many main dealers who 'didn't do' Tappets invoiced for the rocker gaskets to give the impression tappets were done,
+1 on this - small trusted indy is the way to go. My local BMW dealer said they could do my Insp 2 in half a day (for £800 IIRC) and didn't need to be with them overnight - no chance they were going to do the measurments. I went to TWG in Camberley who walked me through the measurements afterwards and 1 x shim they'd had to apply. I would inspect the car more carefully than the invoices, its well know many main dealers who 'didn't do' Tappets invoiced for the rocker gaskets to give the impression tappets were done,
Fair point on making people aware of potential pitfalls 
. Checking the invoices is also necessary IMO no matter how much the wad of paperwork is fanned in front of you
It does pay to do your homework
.
Regarding the clearances 2 Specialists near me won't check the valves as to be fair they are quite fiddly ; those of you who remember me hunting out valve shims had me hit a dead end with the specialists ; they had S50 shims but no S54 items ; do they actually check them?. Another claimed he had them but was not willing to sell them to me and that I should have bought a set; as if! I even had a known specialists down south willing to help me out there!
On that subject A friend of mine on another forum (and possibly here) checks them and works for BMW. He was saying (like I found with mine) that the valves tend to get tigher, not looser as the specialists would have you believe but did say once they are done to the looser end of the spec they rarely come out if done correctly (i.e not skipping any of them ; cylinders 5 and 6 are very awkward to get at even with the tool so often get left alone even by a few dealers). Thus a quieter engine is not always a good sign. I know none of mine were looser than the spec.
Personally I think the only real way to go to a trusted specialist with a reputation. There are some jobs I'd offer to do for people but the clearances are not once of them ; it is far too easy to drop the tiny shims into the engine despite taking precautions.
. Checking the invoices is also necessary IMO no matter how much the wad of paperwork is fanned in front of youIt does pay to do your homework
.Regarding the clearances 2 Specialists near me won't check the valves as to be fair they are quite fiddly ; those of you who remember me hunting out valve shims had me hit a dead end with the specialists ; they had S50 shims but no S54 items ; do they actually check them?. Another claimed he had them but was not willing to sell them to me and that I should have bought a set; as if! I even had a known specialists down south willing to help me out there!
On that subject A friend of mine on another forum (and possibly here) checks them and works for BMW. He was saying (like I found with mine) that the valves tend to get tigher, not looser as the specialists would have you believe but did say once they are done to the looser end of the spec they rarely come out if done correctly (i.e not skipping any of them ; cylinders 5 and 6 are very awkward to get at even with the tool so often get left alone even by a few dealers). Thus a quieter engine is not always a good sign. I know none of mine were looser than the spec.
Personally I think the only real way to go to a trusted specialist with a reputation. There are some jobs I'd offer to do for people but the clearances are not once of them ; it is far too easy to drop the tiny shims into the engine despite taking precautions.
Edited by SebringMan on Monday 21st November 21:14
as sebring man said - there are lots of places calling themselves specialists but very few actually are. there are 2 near me. one is what i would call a specialist (who i would trust my car with - did my HG) and one that i really wouldnt let near a 20 year old fiesta let alone an M3.
a few BMW banners does not a specialist make.
a few BMW banners does not a specialist make.
Clearances tightening doesn't make sense to me - on any engine. I've owned a few M3's and the first I owned many years ago I drove quite hard, and it was audibly more tappety when due for a valve adjustment service.
My current M3 is not driven anywhere near hard but a few had gone to 0.055mm loose between services.
My current M3 is not driven anywhere near hard but a few had gone to 0.055mm loose between services.
I have found a couple of cars which I intend to 'go see'. One of the dealers talks of the vanos pipes being replaced and the rear suspension areas inspected and crack free. The second dealer talks of only the usual sales talk.
But my question is, assuming the rear suspension areas have been properly repaired how long can the repairs be expected to last under normal conditions and maintenance. I as,K because my purchase will be a keeper for me..
Edit to correct vamps with vanos!!!L
But my question is, assuming the rear suspension areas have been properly repaired how long can the repairs be expected to last under normal conditions and maintenance. I as,K because my purchase will be a keeper for me..
Edit to correct vamps with vanos!!!L
Edited by crankedup on Wednesday 23 November 22:30
tomtom said:
Huh, is that valve clearance report standard? I just had an Inspection II done by BMW themselves and didn't get one...
I'll second that!! never seen one of those, and non of my mates who have M cars have either!!
Looks a thumbs up for Steve Sopers dealership then seems thorough.
I have heard both Indy's and Main dealers talking of tappets tightening up, but also heard comments the other end of the spectrum saying they get nosier.
Andy
crankedup said:
I have found a couple of cars which I intend to 'go see'. One of the dealers talks of the vamps pipes being replaced and the rear suspension areas inspected and crack free. The second dealer talks of only the usual sales talk.
But my question is, assuming the rear suspension areas have been properly repaired how long can the repairs be expected to last under normal conditions and maintenance. I as,K because my purchase will be a keeper for me.
If the subframe has been seen to with plates, and installation was done properly, then it's a fix for life really given the criteria you've set out. It's worth noting that not all M3s will ever have cracked subframes either, so if one has been inspected and is given the all clear, it might be one of the lucky ones. Mine has been inspected by BMW, my local indy and ETA Motorsport and given the all clear. ETA said they have seen track cars without any subframe issues yet have seen cars only driven on the road come in with cracks and needing sorting, so it's a bit of a luck-lottery really.But my question is, assuming the rear suspension areas have been properly repaired how long can the repairs be expected to last under normal conditions and maintenance. I as,K because my purchase will be a keeper for me.
Edited by robbiekhan on Wednesday 23 November 22:38
andyman_2006 said:
As Pidsy said, Head Gasket is an issue, had mine done a couple years ago at 82K miles.
Also look out for:
-Cracked rear springs (common just had 2 more last month!)
-Rear trailing arms bushes worn (Common)
-Milky lacquer on the alloys or them being totally shot! (Around £550 to refurbish correctly)
-Clutch slip - new one is around £600 fitted
-Check Discs (around £800 to replace all round)
-VANOS issues (£799 to put right) http://www.mrvanos.com/
-Rust on the front wings and rear tailgate
-Make sure its had running in service done around 1200 miles
-Make sure its had inspections 2 service done and generally regular services
-Interior mirror bleeding out (they are not cheap - unless you find a used one)
-Check it has decent tyres fitted as they are around £150-200 a corner especially rears.
I could go on...
Anyway finally good luck and happy hunting. Hope you find a good one.
Andy
mwstewart said:
Clearances tightening doesn't make sense to me - on any engine. I've owned a few M3's and the first I owned many years ago I drove quite hard, and it was audibly more tappety when due for a valve adjustment service.
My current M3 is not driven anywhere near hard but a few had gone to 0.055mm loose between services.
This is a real can of worms now ; my friend was referring to the S54 engine, but it can for two reasons:My current M3 is not driven anywhere near hard but a few had gone to 0.055mm loose between services.
-Valve wear on the valve itself or the seat
-Carbon buildup on the valve itself, albeit not alot, but given the clearances required it won't take alot to affect them.
But yes, most people associate the clearances opening up with wear on the valve fingers themselves if the cams/fingers were bedding in due to being changed this indeed would occur.
Even the Ford Duratec HEs which are shimmed, but done with the shim under the tappet tend to tighten up IME and once caught me out (I ended up with around 3 burned out valves due to the poor clearances which stupidly I left ; I was told a similar thing regarding that as well by garages (Ford Specify to check them every 100,000 miles or possibly every x amount of years that I cannot remember.
Back to M3s, I did notice a difference after mine were done as did my dad who drove it when he needed to borrow my car (I walk to work most days). Not like "OMG I've had it remapped WTF!", but more in it pulling a little better in the midrange and sounding more even.
[-]However, are those figures for an E46? If not I'd be questioning the figures. The figures banded about for the clearances are as follows:
Inlet: 0.18-0.23mm
Exhaust: 0.28-33mm.[/-]
The BMW tools themselves only measure in 0.05mm increments as well in 0.15, 0.20, 0.25, 0.30, 0.35; I bought the tool and the feeler gauges from BMW as well as a spare set (My spare cheapo ones measure and the very end of BMW's tolerances.
http://www.billswebspace.com/MS54B32TrainingModule...
I'll see if I can grab a photo of mine
.P.S : I checked mine on an engine that sat for around 2 days. When I rechecked the engine the engine hadn't been started for around a week (when I was waiting on the shims).
P.S.S : It seems the figures for your car are different due to it having upgraded camshafts in comparison to the normal figures?
Edited by SebringMan on Thursday 24th November 10:28
mwstewart said:
Clearances tightening doesn't make sense to me - on any engine. I've owned a few M3's and the first I owned many years ago I drove quite hard, and it was audibly more tappety when due for a valve adjustment service.
My current M3 is not driven anywhere near hard but a few had gone to 0.055mm loose between services.
My last clearance check was performed by Redish. Most were bob on but they did report that a couple had got smaller rather than bigger. I scratched my head over this and can only conclude that it indicated that the last person to do them had performed the work on a warm engine. Set clearances on a warm engine and by the time the engine has cooled properly thermal contraction will have reduced them a little. I might add that i had my clearances done twice in quick succession. I asked Redish to do a compression test and even though i'd just had them done they insisted they needed to be re-checked before running the test. Great to see no corners being cut. My current M3 is not driven anywhere near hard but a few had gone to 0.055mm loose between services.
GregorFuk said:
I think once a car has passed 100,000 miles we can stop fretting about the 1200 mile service.
Depends.Didn't the 1200 mile service basically keep the warranty of the car thus ensure that if anything did go wrong or recalls etc. they would be done by BMW without much quibbling? But yes, there are bigger things to worry about
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