Just swapped 996 turbo for e90 m3

Just swapped 996 turbo for e90 m3

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bennyboysvuk

3,491 posts

247 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
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Lordjimimac said:
yep eyes wide open on the actuators - i read a reputable refurb swap is £600, and my car has 20k miles - so no great shakes

There were many bits and bobs to maintain on my 10+ year old Porsches each year - suspension, engine seals, blocked drains, rads (weak point on all), coil packs, electrical issues - as well as brakes tyres etc - my cars were both Peter Morgan Inspected before I bought (you should look him up if not familiar) - so they were in very good order. And at least in my experience those were the costs (from a reputable specialist not Porsche dealer).

Awesome cars! Not meaning to dissuade in any way. But not cheap to own (again at least in my experience).
What you do get for those costs, as mentioned, is very little depreciation.
I'm pretty happy with doing lots of DIY on an old 996, although the electrical issues are a surprise! Thanks for the heads up on the coil packs. Sounds like they go a lot, (having read up on it) but are cheap and easy to change.

Very good to hear that they're awesome! Thanks again for the info, all helpful to know. Good luck with the M3.

woogie

3,313 posts

251 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
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I had a 996 Carrera for 5 years - in 5 years I had the fan belt go that was it. The most reliable car I have ever had - sounded the nuts too with a PSE I had fitted - I did a group buy with 9 other guys and got it for 1400 quid instead of 2,200 at Stratford Porsche - sounded incredible.

I also had a 986 boxster which handled like it was on rails - I spent 60 quid on that in 2 years on a wish bone - totally reliable


Just bought an MY2011 M3 E92 four weeks back, so far so good, I got a 2 years warranty at Leeds BMW too .


Bicronical

34 posts

89 months

Thursday 8th December 2016
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Like many, my boyhood dream was a 911 and after many years BM ownership I bought a 997.1 4S, changing up from an E60 M5.... on paper the figures were very similar.. in reality the car's couldn't have been more different.

Firstly the four wheel drive in anything before the 997.2 is not active in the sense that we think it is. The front drive train is linked via a viscous coupling that only kicks in when the rears have been spinning for a good number of revolutions. This can be seen if you search on youtube for a 911 in the snow both pre and post 997.2. So, of no use what's so ever when you are driving hard on the open road. To the performance figures... both BM and 911 0-60 figures were around 5s. But past this figure the M5 would destroy the 911. the 0-60 is all about the 911 have a 3.8 ltr engine hanging directly above the rear wheels...

Yes on a race track the M5 couldn't dream of keeping up point to point with the 911 but in the real world the lack of mid range grunt (and the dreadful pre PDK auto gearbox) drove me mad... with the final nail being humiliated by a (non-chipped) 2003 335d....

So I swapped it for a 997.2 Turbo. Yes it was v-quick and riotous in sport/sport plus but still the car / manufacture has some major shortcomings:

- Anything at main dealers is very expensive especially on turbo / GT3 cars, so get yourself a good Indy to maintain it if out of warranty.

- Whilst legally you can get an Indy to maintain it in warranty, don't!

- When they break they are expensive to fix, in the main due to the fact you need to take the back end apart/drop the engine out to do any serious work on the engine. My Indy dealer offered a maintenance/warranty pack for anything other than Turbo / GT3 as "they are just too expensive when they go wrong"

- Build quality is poor for such an expensive car (my Turbo was £145k new). My 1 yr old turbo had rattles and squeaks and the dealer was never able to fix them, and was never much inclined to try as rattles etc.. are outside of warranty. One of the Turbo's blew at 12k miles and then it started using coolant and they couldn't find the fault... at which point they wanted to charge me as "that is the terms of the warranty"... (I sold it after this bks)
PS - my 997.1 4S needed a full engine rebuild at 45k... so two for two...

- Despite being under Porsche warranty, Porsche UK have some very concerning ways of getting out of paying.. and if you want to renew the warranty you can't have anything that is non Porsche including the battery, different chrome tips on the end of the exhaust etc..

- Whilst the 911 has rear seats they are pointless if you have legs..., and the front seats only fold forward in certain positions so you have to faf with the seat before somebody gets in the rear. Please don't buy a 911 thinking it is a family car... big big mistake.

- They sound like sowing machines... without doubt the worst sounding quick car around (and you can't change the exhaust on the Turbo as this invalidates the whole engine warranty)

- They front end gets upset easily when travelling at silly autobahn speeds, to the point that the front end is unweighting over bumps and you have little confidence of going any faster (135mph). The fact that the car has a top speed of nearly 200mph is laughable.

- Yes the non 4x4 high powered BMs struggle for rear end grip compared to the 911T, but this means much more fun at lower speeds, and they are much more predictable/manageable for mere mortals. And if you are a mere mortal, the traction/safety setups are better in the BMs.

If you are in doubt, I have gone back to BM's... more fun, less stress.

Max Maxasson

406 posts

182 months

Thursday 8th December 2016
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Its a shame to hear that Porsche reliability is not what it used to be.
I had 7 911s over a twenty year period including 3 2WD turbos and they were all pretty much faultless...apart from a 5 speed 930 turbo I bought with 7,000 miles that had spent two much time in storage and needed a top end rebuild (but done under warranty no questions asked).
They are great cars to own and I would have another, but its true the E9x M3 is more fun, you can never throw a 911 around like you can the M3.

Edited by Max Maxasson on Thursday 8th December 12:15

Bicronical

34 posts

89 months

Thursday 8th December 2016
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yes I was gutted Max... bought my first 911 at the age of 45 after dreaming about one for at least 30 years..
.
Perhaps I was very unlucky but given the problems VW has, I can't see the problems getting better.

I even tried to get some sense from Porsche UK but I got nowhere so I immediately PX'ed the car for a new F10 M5 (this was a
mistake, I should have thought more about what I was buying. Beautiful car but just too big and too civilised...).

I have ordered a Competition Pack M3 to fill the gap. :-)

bennyboysvuk

3,491 posts

247 months

Thursday 8th December 2016
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Max Maxasson said:
Its a shame to hear that Porsche reliability is not what it used to be.
its true the E9x M3 is more fun, you can never through a 911 around like you can the M3.
I know the M3 is super friendly and lift-off oversteer and power slides are easy to manage, but is the M3 more fun (than say a 997.1S) if you're after more character more of the time?

My big issue with modern BMWs (M cars included) is the lack of engine intake noise, the various nannies and in the latest M2 at least, the driving mode selector too...not to mention brake hazard lights coming on after firm braking and a few other annoyances like the turbo cars being at their loudest during a cold start.

Really, I'm after a semi-track car (but 90% for road use) that's not too civilised, definitely NA and reminds me all the time that it would rather be on the track, but is also capable of squeezing in a couple of kids in the back for short journeys (<5 miles). I was rather hoping a 996/997 might fit the bill for all that.

Max Maxasson

406 posts

182 months

Thursday 8th December 2016
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I'm sure you know all the pros and cons of an E92 M3 vrs a 911 in terms of practicality, cost to run etc. In terms of driving fun, well...I had a gen 2 997 C2S with PDK for a days test drive and yes they are a great drive but I still took it back early so I could get back into my M3 (its just more fun if you are a bit of a hooligan!).
But...I've owned 911s so it was different for me. I think every car enthusiast should own a 911, its an iconic car and you may not have another opportunity to own one later in life.
After all, one is a BMW and the other is a Porsche.
If I had the £££ I would trade my M3 for a 991 turbo in a heartbeat!
I guess you are probably aware of the engine problems that seem to plague the gen 1 997?

Bicronical

34 posts

89 months

Thursday 8th December 2016
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Other than a lack of power (not the 911T) I couldn't fault the 911 on the track Vs any of the fast saloon variants (the GTR is the notable exception but not a car I could live with)

The problem is the balance of power+usability+servicing costs+purchase price+fun. I think the M3 is a better outcome as a mathematical equation to this problem.

If the 10% of the time you are on the track is going to be the deciding factor I would get a 911 rather than the M3, the M3 is just too heavy and there are two many compromises on the track that make it a great 'affordable' sports car for the road.

Porsche expect 911 owners to take their car on the track, and encourage them to do so, and therefore it is designed/built for such (that said, if a Porsche track car is your real goal... Caymen GT4 is the answer.. better balanced than the 911.).

To get something half quick I would recommend at least a 997.2 S car and the PDK box with paddle shifts as this is a great system, so good that you cant get the GT3 or GT3 RS (991) without it. And the sport+ system is very much designed for the track and has you in the optimum gear 95% of the time). And if you can, the 997.2 or 991.1 Turbo/TurboS, other than a GTR and the silly money hypercars, there is little that comes close.

You can then tick it off your Bucket List.

:-)



Bicronical

34 posts

89 months

Thursday 8th December 2016
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I'm with you Max, everybody should own one. In fact, own as many different cars as you can.
If I won the lottery I would also buy a 991 GT3RS and a 991 TurboS as my 'run around'. But if it is my hard earned cash and I'm not Richard Branson, I would stick to BMs.

Agree, stay well clear of 996 gens 1 and 2 and gen 1 997. The 996 relaunched Porsche back into profit after nearly going bust.
But to do it they cut the engine design to match a cost point and there are some design issues, (particularly the 3.8S models).

The Turbos and GT3 are another answer, they are a very different engine.. a new non turbo engine from Porsche is c. £10k... the turbo/GT3 engine is c.£35k.

I would also recommend the 997.2 onwards if you want an auto box, the 996/997.2 auto box is dreadful... and I thought the E60 SMG was bad...
:-)

bennyboysvuk

3,491 posts

247 months

Friday 9th December 2016
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I took an Evora out for a test drive in the summer and that felt great, nothing like as easy to slide as the M3, but without it really sliding it was hugely throttle adjustable mid-corner. However, I jumped out of that and sat straight in a 997 and there was oodles more space in it and the engine was far more special than the Toyota lump in the Evora. I drove a 991.1 C4S too and that was great when flat out, but less characterful than the old cars when just pootling around.

My budget won't stretch to a 997.2, so GT3s are out too. I'd also never choose an auto over a manual. However, I'm leaning towards early 996s due to the lack of PSM and ideally would like a car with the M030 option and LSD (I know the Carrera and S variants didn't come with LSDs). I know about the IMS and bore scoring, but with a new IMS and a low-temp thermostat and regular oil changes I think the risks can be minimised. I think a 996 is probably as close to basic, no electronics motoring as I'm likely to get with a low 911 budget, although the 40th anniversary 996 with LSD and 345bhp looks good too. I know these cars aren't as quick as even 335ds (but to be fair, 335ds are quite quick when being driven hard, but they're dull as dishwater and a one trick pony IMO). I've had fairly quick cars and driven lots of quicker stuff, but I don't crave that acceleration any more, I just want a sportier, back to basics, daily driver with loads of character. I ride a sports bike over the summer so every car will feel slow and disconnected after that, but I really hope that a 996 would go some way to fitting the bill.

Thanks for all the thoughts on 911s. All opinions and comparisons are really helpful.

Shaoxter

4,048 posts

123 months

Friday 9th December 2016
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I wouldn't bother with the LSD option, firstly because you'll never find one and secondly you don't need it. 911s are known for their excellent traction and I highly doubt you'd miss one during everyday driving. Even on a track I've never noticed the PSM (which is supposed to make up for a lack of LSD) kicking in that much.

bennyboysvuk

3,491 posts

247 months

Friday 9th December 2016
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Shaoxter said:
I wouldn't bother with the LSD option, firstly because you'll never find one and secondly you don't need it. 911s are known for their excellent traction and I highly doubt you'd miss one during everyday driving. Even on a track I've never noticed the PSM (which is supposed to make up for a lack of LSD) kicking in that much.
In decent conditions I'd agree, but as soon as the roads get slimy and cold an LSD really starts to make sense. I despise the electronic braking of wheels to mimic an LSD as it just can't do what a proper mechanical LSD can.

Shaoxter

4,048 posts

123 months

Friday 9th December 2016
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bennyboysvuk said:
Shaoxter said:
I wouldn't bother with the LSD option, firstly because you'll never find one and secondly you don't need it. 911s are known for their excellent traction and I highly doubt you'd miss one during everyday driving. Even on a track I've never noticed the PSM (which is supposed to make up for a lack of LSD) kicking in that much.
In decent conditions I'd agree, but as soon as the roads get slimy and cold an LSD really starts to make sense. I despise the electronic braking of wheels to mimic an LSD as it just can't do what a proper mechanical LSD can.
Best way of course is to try one and decide for yourself, internet theories on LSDs only tell you so much.

On M cars, AMGs etc. I agree an LSD is pretty much essential but the traction/power ratio in 911s is much greater.

ratty6464

628 posts

209 months

Monday 12th December 2016
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I had a comp pack and switched between Michelin alpin pa4 in the winter and supersports in the summer.

The winters were brilliant and it meant you could push the car and feel it's limits safely.

The m3 on winters is a lot more confidence inspiring than my xdrive 4 series is in winter running supersports currently. Never can quite trust the front end in these conditions

gixermark

742 posts

186 months

Thursday 15th December 2016
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^^ agree^^ and back to the original question... i found my E90 M3 on summer tyres at this time of year to be no fun.. as you simply couldnt get any temperature into the tyres.. the roads are greasy/slimy - winter tyres work sooo much better in these conditions than sumer tyres inmho.

mb26

219 posts

162 months

Saturday 17th December 2016
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Just tested a 997 carrera S .. was thinking of selling my e90 m3 .. but really disappointed in the 997 .. not fast enough, not special enough, not loud enough, lots of NVH, not great steering, really disappointed.. lovely to look at though..

Happy to stay with my M3

What else is going to rock my world for 20k?

Suggestions ?


Edited by mb26 on Sunday 18th December 11:32

david_h

579 posts

262 months

Sunday 18th December 2016
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Great thread, I am in a similar predicament. I already have an e46 m3 that is a keeper, trying to work out whether to upgrade my e90 to an M3, or keep it and buy a 997s.

I am really struggling to find a 4 seater that is within budget and dynamically good to drive.

bennyboysvuk

3,491 posts

247 months

Wednesday 21st December 2016
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mb26 said:
Just tested a 997 carrera S .. was thinking of selling my e90 m3 .. but really disappointed in the 997 .. not fast enough, not special enough, not loud enough, lots of NVH, not great steering, really disappointed.. lovely to look at though..

Happy to stay with my M3

What else is going to rock my world for 20k?

Suggestions ?


Edited by mb26 on Sunday 18th December 11:32
This is an interesting predicament. If you want 4 seats, NA, RWD, manual there is actually very little choice. If limited to £20k then it gets even tighter. I think the only different option to the standard answers (E46 M3, E90 M3, 996, 997) is to go down the tuning route, but then that's not for everyone. I particularly liked this hilarious V10 E46 M3 though: https://youtu.be/09RRavdW3C0

Clubracer6

1 posts

87 months

Sunday 1st January 2017
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Happy New Year! 1st time poster here.

Great thread and very relevant as I am selling my modded 996tt here in the states.

Was always a dream car of mine and I do absolutely love it. The power and stiffness make for a great piece of industrial machinery.

What I miss about my 996 c2 is the steering feel and responsiveness. Plus that glorious intake and exhaust sound.

I was really thinking about a 997, but honestly the bore scoring is a concern, plus all the electronics. I also think that back end by the tail lights as viewed from the rear quarter view is a bit too fat. Finally, why did they (like BMW) have to move the window switches to the door?!

I keep thinking about getting a very low mileage E90 M3, so your comments about the steering at a little concerning. I have only driven one so far, a SMG Cabrio with the top down. Quite jiggly.

Maybe the right combo for me once I sell the 996tt will be a C2 coupe and E39 M5. Both great tributes to the end of a purely analog generation.