Anyone had 997 911 c2s?
Discussion
I had a 997S cab from new in 2005 and kept for 8 years.
Ran alongside an E90 M3 which I kept for three years from new in 2009.
I had no problems at all with the 911. I found the 911 more 'special' to drive, particularly on local roads.
Drove both cars to South of France on several occasions - I didn't have any issues driving either car long distances, although the M3 was more relaxing (relatively).
Both my cars were manual and straight line performance I found very similar. Both engines were epic in their own way but the V8 was very special.
They were both great cars but if I could only have one and the practicality of the M3 was not needed, I'd choose 911 every time.
Ran alongside an E90 M3 which I kept for three years from new in 2009.
I had no problems at all with the 911. I found the 911 more 'special' to drive, particularly on local roads.
Drove both cars to South of France on several occasions - I didn't have any issues driving either car long distances, although the M3 was more relaxing (relatively).
Both my cars were manual and straight line performance I found very similar. Both engines were epic in their own way but the V8 was very special.
They were both great cars but if I could only have one and the practicality of the M3 was not needed, I'd choose 911 every time.
popeyewhite said:
Wills2 said:
Two days isn't long enough in a 911 that's zero experience in my book.
I'd agree with that as well. I was months in and starting to wonder what the fuss was about until I realised I'd been doing extra unnecessary mileage the past month.
Yes, well sort of !
Had a 2005 C2 911 (997). Great car however our new M240i is better. Yes it's a Porsche but for me the car needed to make sense for all occasions, the 911 for some people may be an everyday supercar for me however it was not
1. Not enough room in the back seats
2. Can't just leave the car anywhere
3. Not enough room to carry 3 suitcases
4. Wife didn't like using it for shopping
If what you want is a car that will surprise you everyday be as reliable as a ford Focus and do 90% of what a normal car can do then I'd say buy one.
Boggy
Boggy said:
1. Not enough room in the back seats
2. Can't just leave the car anywhere
3. Not enough room to carry 3 suitcases
4. Wife didn't like using it for shopping
1. It's fine for small kids, any bigger and it ceases to be a sports car2. Can't just leave the car anywhere
3. Not enough room to carry 3 suitcases
4. Wife didn't like using it for shopping
2. Depends where you live, Porsches don't get a second glance in London
3. You need to carry 3 suitcases every day?
4. It's great for shopping, you can reverse into a space and access the boot easily.
Wills2 said:
ndj said:
I had the afore mentioned 997, PDK for an extended 2 day test drive over 300 or so miles (colleague's car). Hated it for many reasons, just left me cold.
Bought an E90 M3 a few months later and still have it nearly 5 years on.
I'd say the same colleague's 72 RS is iconic. The 997 simply isn't.
Two days isn't long enough in a 911 that's zero experience in my book. Bought an E90 M3 a few months later and still have it nearly 5 years on.
I'd say the same colleague's 72 RS is iconic. The 997 simply isn't.
However, it was the basics that got me. I couldn't get comfortable in it, I didn't like the noise it made, or how it rode, and after those miles on a mix of UK roads it simply wasn't special enough to me to justify the ownership proposition. I don't track my personal cars so any difference on track is irrelevant to me.
The E90 felt right from the first engine start.
bennyboysvuk said:
andrewturner said:
I sold my z3m coupe for a 911 S (997). I lasted about 6 months with it before I sold up and bought an e46 m3 for a third of the price that I kept for 3 years before moving onto an F80 M3. It didn't do it for me.
That's a particularly short period of ownership. Was it the handling or something else that you disliked?I did get a 996 c2 a year later which was better so maybe I had a duff 997.
Ultimately I prefer bmw m cars and my current F80 with 4 doors is more convenient with a 4 year old daughter - the 911's were a faff. Spare wheel out and lose everything in the trunk to get the pushchair in. Bugger that.
Wills2 said:
e46m3c said:
Considering a 997 911 c2s but I'm struggling to justify 10k more over an e90
Looking for some people experiences.
Cheers.
I book ended a 997.2 c2s with a couple of e92 M3s either side, get a gen2 997 and you won't be disappointed the engine isn't as good as the S65 but as a whole the package of the car is. Looking for some people experiences.
Cheers.
It handles better, feels better and goes better over any given road, BUT at first I didn't like it and wanted to change back but I carried on with it and fell in love over 3 years and 50,000 miles.
They are different and feel different but you soon get used to it and its heaven, the manual gearbox with short shift fitted is incredible and makes you wonder what the hell BMW are doing with their manuals.
The control weights steering/clutch/brakes/gear shift/loud pedal are all perfectly judged you just know they spent time and money getting them honed.
The car was a daily driver I did 38k in the first 18 months sometimes over a 1000 miles a week, never a chore...
I had a 2007 911/997 C2S a few years ago for just under two years.
I got rid of it because I got bored with it
Sure it's a 911, it's quite fast (not very fast!) but it's ICE is dated to the point of being prehistoric and the interior isn't much better. If you want to fiddle with the car, perhaps add better suspension or non N rated tyres or perhaps even shock horror Bluetooth then you'll loose you Porsche warranty which is something I wasn't prepared to do.
I moved into a 335i for a few months and then an F10 M5.
I have not missed the 997 at all which is a great shame however it reaffirms I made the right decision
I got rid of it because I got bored with it
Sure it's a 911, it's quite fast (not very fast!) but it's ICE is dated to the point of being prehistoric and the interior isn't much better. If you want to fiddle with the car, perhaps add better suspension or non N rated tyres or perhaps even shock horror Bluetooth then you'll loose you Porsche warranty which is something I wasn't prepared to do.
I moved into a 335i for a few months and then an F10 M5.
I have not missed the 997 at all which is a great shame however it reaffirms I made the right decision
HoHoHo said:
I had a 2007 911/997 C2S a few years ago for just under two years.
I got rid of it because I got bored with it
Sure it's a 911, it's quite fast (not very fast!) but it's ICE is dated to the point of being prehistoric and the interior isn't much better. If you want to fiddle with the car, perhaps add better suspension or non N rated tyres or perhaps even shock horror Bluetooth then you'll loose you Porsche warranty which is something I wasn't prepared to do.
I moved into a 335i for a few months and then an F10 M5.
I have not missed the 997 at all which is a great shame however it reaffirms I made the right decision
F10 and an 997 are like chalk and cheese! The Gen2 cars are also much improved in engine and ICE, particularly with PCM. I got rid of it because I got bored with it
Sure it's a 911, it's quite fast (not very fast!) but it's ICE is dated to the point of being prehistoric and the interior isn't much better. If you want to fiddle with the car, perhaps add better suspension or non N rated tyres or perhaps even shock horror Bluetooth then you'll loose you Porsche warranty which is something I wasn't prepared to do.
I moved into a 335i for a few months and then an F10 M5.
I have not missed the 997 at all which is a great shame however it reaffirms I made the right decision
F10 is a dull instrument compared to a Porsche, every time I get back into my Cayman it brings a smile to my face and makes me realise what it's like to actually have to drive a drive a car again rather than sit back and fly by wire in the M5.
Not a 997 I admit, but they're so different they make a perfect combo IMO. Straying off the E90/997 comparison but hey, why not...
I think this depends on what you're looking for in switching. Currently have a gen 1 version. I bought it as I'd always liked the way they looked and decided after many M cars to try something different. I've done 10k miles in it in about 9 months - for me its a massive disappointment. I can see why people like them but its really just not for me.
There are aspects to the drive which are a step up from the M cars I've owned but I think I probably should have bought a Cayman (but can't get on with the looks). I really don't get on with the front going light under speed / power. Don't like the general balance of the car. Gives me no confidence on a variable B road surface at speed. I've also found the front skipping under braking on rough ground where I have no issues in the M3. If you're a better driver than I am maybe you can get more from the car but for me on the road I don't particularly like it. The grip levels are also very high so to get any fun out of the car the speeds are too high on the public road.
In most situations the M cars I have owned have been a better overall proposition. I currently also have an E36 M3 and for most journeys given the keys to both thats the one I would take. I bought the 911 to stop putting so many miles on the M3 but have come to regard using the 911 as a chore. Its certainly not as exciting to drive as the M3 and over a longer journey becomes tiresome mainly due to noise from the tyres.
For my own needs and usage in comparison to the M cars I've owned its too compromised and not special enough in return. Its too compromised to really be an attractive daily substitute but not special enough to be a weekend car.
A few practical issues I have are (some of these are Gen 1 specific):
0. Driving position - the pedals are too close (to me not each other) and upright. My elbow fouls on the transmission tunnel.
1. The tyre noise on the motorway is intrusive, makes phone calls difficult and even talking to a passenger if on rough surfaces at speed. If I'm going on a long journey with a passenger it isn't my first choice. In fact this for me is the single greatest failing, I could accept this noise level in something like an Elise but its not an Elise.
2. Depending on your appetite for risk you may need a warranty and then you are stuck porsche OEM on overpriced tyres etc. The Nav etc is out of date and it doesn't have things like Bluetooth.
3. I'm constantly scraping the front on things around town.
4. The interior is of variable quality. Given the price point of the car its disappointing as its easily damaged and then looks shabby. The interior of my M3 is worse but then I paid a fifth of the price for it and its a much older car.
5. Although the luggage space is reasonable in the front anything that is longer in one dimension has to go on display on the back seats. This may be more of an issue for me as I work away so leave the car in public display more than normal.
6. I'd like to be able to chose between the settings that sport chrono sets, as I can't get on with the increased throttle sensitivity but would like to reduce the traction control.
7. Neither PASM option suits me. The sport is way to hard and in 'normal' I don't feel the front end is tied down enough in B road driving.
8. At the price point the jump to a Gen 2 997 911 wouldn't be my first choice.
9. My car doesn't have a LSD. Get one with it optioned.
I'll be switching back into an E46 M3 for daily duties in a few months and won't look back.
There are aspects to the drive which are a step up from the M cars I've owned but I think I probably should have bought a Cayman (but can't get on with the looks). I really don't get on with the front going light under speed / power. Don't like the general balance of the car. Gives me no confidence on a variable B road surface at speed. I've also found the front skipping under braking on rough ground where I have no issues in the M3. If you're a better driver than I am maybe you can get more from the car but for me on the road I don't particularly like it. The grip levels are also very high so to get any fun out of the car the speeds are too high on the public road.
In most situations the M cars I have owned have been a better overall proposition. I currently also have an E36 M3 and for most journeys given the keys to both thats the one I would take. I bought the 911 to stop putting so many miles on the M3 but have come to regard using the 911 as a chore. Its certainly not as exciting to drive as the M3 and over a longer journey becomes tiresome mainly due to noise from the tyres.
For my own needs and usage in comparison to the M cars I've owned its too compromised and not special enough in return. Its too compromised to really be an attractive daily substitute but not special enough to be a weekend car.
A few practical issues I have are (some of these are Gen 1 specific):
0. Driving position - the pedals are too close (to me not each other) and upright. My elbow fouls on the transmission tunnel.
1. The tyre noise on the motorway is intrusive, makes phone calls difficult and even talking to a passenger if on rough surfaces at speed. If I'm going on a long journey with a passenger it isn't my first choice. In fact this for me is the single greatest failing, I could accept this noise level in something like an Elise but its not an Elise.
2. Depending on your appetite for risk you may need a warranty and then you are stuck porsche OEM on overpriced tyres etc. The Nav etc is out of date and it doesn't have things like Bluetooth.
3. I'm constantly scraping the front on things around town.
4. The interior is of variable quality. Given the price point of the car its disappointing as its easily damaged and then looks shabby. The interior of my M3 is worse but then I paid a fifth of the price for it and its a much older car.
5. Although the luggage space is reasonable in the front anything that is longer in one dimension has to go on display on the back seats. This may be more of an issue for me as I work away so leave the car in public display more than normal.
6. I'd like to be able to chose between the settings that sport chrono sets, as I can't get on with the increased throttle sensitivity but would like to reduce the traction control.
7. Neither PASM option suits me. The sport is way to hard and in 'normal' I don't feel the front end is tied down enough in B road driving.
8. At the price point the jump to a Gen 2 997 911 wouldn't be my first choice.
9. My car doesn't have a LSD. Get one with it optioned.
I'll be switching back into an E46 M3 for daily duties in a few months and won't look back.
Edited by MGR on Monday 23 January 23:55
Edited by MGR on Monday 23 January 23:56
Edited by MGR on Monday 23 January 23:58
MGR said:
I think this depends on what you're looking for in switching. Currently have a gen 1 version. I bought it as I'd always liked the way they looked and decided after many M cars to try something different. I've done 10k miles in it in about 9 months - for me its a massive disappointment. I can see why people like them but its really just not for me.
There are aspects to the drive which are a step up from the M cars I've owned but I think I probably should have bought a Cayman (but can't get on with the looks). I really don't get on with the front going light under speed / power. Don't like the general balance of the car. Gives me no confidence on a variable B road surface at speed. I've also found the front skipping under braking on rough ground where I have no issues in the M3. If you're a better driver than I am maybe you can get more from the car but for me on the road I don't particularly like it. The grip levels are also very high so to get any fun out of the car the speeds are too high on the public road.
In most situations the M cars I have owned have been a better overall proposition. I currently also have an E36 M3 and for most journeys given the keys to both thats the one I would take. I bought the 911 to stop putting so many miles on the M3 but have come to regard using the 911 as a chore. Its certainly not as exciting to drive as the M3 and over a longer journey becomes tiresome mainly due to noise from the tyres.
For my own needs and usage in comparison to the M cars I've owned its too compromised and not special enough in return. Its too compromised to really be an attractive daily substitute but not special enough to be a weekend car.
A few practical issues I have are (some of these are Gen 1 specific):
0. Driving position - the pedals are too close (to me not each other) and upright. My elbow fouls on the transmission tunnel.
1. The tyre noise on the motorway is intrusive, makes phone calls difficult and even talking to a passenger if on rough surfaces at speed. If I'm going on a long journey with a passenger it isn't my first choice. In fact this for me is the single greatest failing, I could accept this noise level in something like an Elise but its not an Elise.
2. Depending on your appetite for risk you may need a warranty and then you are stuck porsche OEM on overpriced tyres etc. The Nav etc is out of date and it doesn't have things like Bluetooth.
3. I'm constantly scraping the front on things around town.
4. The interior is of variable quality. Given the price point of the car its disappointing as its easily damaged and then looks shabby. The interior of my M3 is worse but then I paid a fifth of the price for it and its a much older car.
5. Although the luggage space is reasonable in the front anything that is longer in one dimension has to go on display on the back seats. This may be more of an issue for me as I work away so leave the car in public display more than normal.
6. I'd like to be able to chose between the settings that sport chrono sets, as I can't get on with the increased throttle sensitivity but would like to reduce the traction control.
7. Neither PASM option suits me. The sport is way to hard and in 'normal' I don't feel the front end is tied down enough in B road driving.
8. At the price point the jump to a Gen 2 997 911 wouldn't be my first choice.
9. My car doesn't have a LSD. Get one with it optioned.
I'll be switching back into an E46 M3 for daily duties in a few months and won't look back.
Great and insightful post. I'm considering a 911 for my next car, but in all honesty I think 0, 6, 7 and 9 and also your mention of the general balance and lack of fun at lower speeds are what worry me about getting one. I currently own a car without an LSD and despise it for it. Many people have said that an LSD is unnecessary in a 911, but for my style of driving and my preferences, I think it would be mandatory, especially in greasy conditions. Thanks for the honest review.There are aspects to the drive which are a step up from the M cars I've owned but I think I probably should have bought a Cayman (but can't get on with the looks). I really don't get on with the front going light under speed / power. Don't like the general balance of the car. Gives me no confidence on a variable B road surface at speed. I've also found the front skipping under braking on rough ground where I have no issues in the M3. If you're a better driver than I am maybe you can get more from the car but for me on the road I don't particularly like it. The grip levels are also very high so to get any fun out of the car the speeds are too high on the public road.
In most situations the M cars I have owned have been a better overall proposition. I currently also have an E36 M3 and for most journeys given the keys to both thats the one I would take. I bought the 911 to stop putting so many miles on the M3 but have come to regard using the 911 as a chore. Its certainly not as exciting to drive as the M3 and over a longer journey becomes tiresome mainly due to noise from the tyres.
For my own needs and usage in comparison to the M cars I've owned its too compromised and not special enough in return. Its too compromised to really be an attractive daily substitute but not special enough to be a weekend car.
A few practical issues I have are (some of these are Gen 1 specific):
0. Driving position - the pedals are too close (to me not each other) and upright. My elbow fouls on the transmission tunnel.
1. The tyre noise on the motorway is intrusive, makes phone calls difficult and even talking to a passenger if on rough surfaces at speed. If I'm going on a long journey with a passenger it isn't my first choice. In fact this for me is the single greatest failing, I could accept this noise level in something like an Elise but its not an Elise.
2. Depending on your appetite for risk you may need a warranty and then you are stuck porsche OEM on overpriced tyres etc. The Nav etc is out of date and it doesn't have things like Bluetooth.
3. I'm constantly scraping the front on things around town.
4. The interior is of variable quality. Given the price point of the car its disappointing as its easily damaged and then looks shabby. The interior of my M3 is worse but then I paid a fifth of the price for it and its a much older car.
5. Although the luggage space is reasonable in the front anything that is longer in one dimension has to go on display on the back seats. This may be more of an issue for me as I work away so leave the car in public display more than normal.
6. I'd like to be able to chose between the settings that sport chrono sets, as I can't get on with the increased throttle sensitivity but would like to reduce the traction control.
7. Neither PASM option suits me. The sport is way to hard and in 'normal' I don't feel the front end is tied down enough in B road driving.
8. At the price point the jump to a Gen 2 997 911 wouldn't be my first choice.
9. My car doesn't have a LSD. Get one with it optioned.
I'll be switching back into an E46 M3 for daily duties in a few months and won't look back.
bennyboysvuk said:
Great and insightful post. I'm considering a 911 for my next car, but in all honesty I think 0, 6, 7 and 9 and also your mention of the general balance and lack of fun at lower speeds are what worry me about getting one. I currently own a car without an LSD and despise it for it. Many people have said that an LSD is unnecessary in a 911, but for my style of driving and my preferences, I think it would be mandatory, especially in greasy conditions. Thanks for the honest review.
Best thing to do is just try / buy one and see. It is a different driving experience to an M car and it may be that this suits you better. Practicalities aside it is a good / excellent car, just as my expectations were so high it hasn't met them. If I'd paid £10-15k for it I'd be singing its praises. I was looking for the next level of experience / a step up from my previous cars and it doesn't really feel like that, rather a step sideways. Its more money and I can't really see what I'm paying for.In terms of an LSD - it doesn't really 'need' one as it generates a lot of grip (too much IMO), its just when that grip runs out (when you're intentionally trying to have a bit of fun) the transition between grip and no grip isn't particularly good.
I had a 997 C2S which I changed quite quickly for an E93 M3. It wasn't that I didn't like the 997, I did, but I didn't love it. Also, and this may mean nothing to you, but the ICE was rubbish. I probably never gave that car the chance it deserved because I never took it on track (unlike the M3 since then) or on a major hoon. I used it as my daily and it was not particularly good at it because it was manual (the Tiptronic is really horrible in my opinion - I had a non S 997 Tip for about three months and overall it was a sweeter car but the Tip is bad even by auto standards) and also because it really doesn't have much room. I have teenagers to ferry around and really that is impossible in a 911. But overall I would have kept it because I did like it as a spirited drive, in Sport mode with the more aggressive everything, although the PSE wasn't much cop either in Sport or wife mode. But I wanted an M3 cabrio as the only synthesis of everything I need - a cabrio (the 997 cabrio is not pretty and even less practical), with that lovely n/a M Sport V8, 4 seater and I can even track it. Mind you, the roof means it has two fat blokes sitting out the back but it is still fun and I'm not chasing lap times. As I live in Ireland, and we have a ridiculous road tax system, I wanted to buy an EDC equipped cabrio registered before July '08 as the road tax is "only" €1809 as opposed to €2350. So when one came up, I had to jump. Overall I don't really miss the 997 although it was faster and if I am being honest, has nicer steering, and even handles maybe a bit better up to that 997 a go go point when grip becomes no grip no gravity. The M3 is much more progressive and you have to love that sound. My other car is a n/a V8 with a DCT box also - a 458, so the M3 is as close as I could go for the daily driver. So far so good. I've upgraded the pads because the OEM ones were shredded half way through 1st track day and I've upgraded to the 2014 iDrive. Next I think is some 'zaurst fettling and I think she is a keeper.
As an owner of a bit of both, I can't understand these conversations. I am a committed BMW fan, current and repeated owner. I have a 330ci Sport e46, which I know is still a way short of the M3, but a friend owns one, which I've driven. I also own a 997.2 C2
I simply cannot get me head around how anyone can think the BMW is a better (or even all that close) driving car. Don't get me wrong, I can murder it up and down the motorway in comfort and it's fine (better than Audis and Saabs I've owned in between 4 BMWs). It looks good, I love the e46. But it steers badly. It's slow at low revs (and doesn't get to high revs anything like as quick). It doesn't feel even slightly special and the M3 isn't different enough to make up the gap.
The 997 is night and day. It does nothing badly and so many things very well (it does need the sports exhaust to avoid doing 'noise' badly). How can anybody get bored which that rear grip?? If I didn't do 30k miles a year I would have the 997 as my daily in a heartbeat and my string of BMWs would come to an end without any regrets.
I simply cannot get me head around how anyone can think the BMW is a better (or even all that close) driving car. Don't get me wrong, I can murder it up and down the motorway in comfort and it's fine (better than Audis and Saabs I've owned in between 4 BMWs). It looks good, I love the e46. But it steers badly. It's slow at low revs (and doesn't get to high revs anything like as quick). It doesn't feel even slightly special and the M3 isn't different enough to make up the gap.
The 997 is night and day. It does nothing badly and so many things very well (it does need the sports exhaust to avoid doing 'noise' badly). How can anybody get bored which that rear grip?? If I didn't do 30k miles a year I would have the 997 as my daily in a heartbeat and my string of BMWs would come to an end without any regrets.
Edited by ishay on Thursday 2nd February 23:39
ishay said:
As an owner of a bit of both, I can't understand these conversations. I am a committed BMW fan, current and repeated owner. I have a 330ci Sport e46, which I know is still a way short of the M3, but a friend owns one, which I've driven. I also own a 997.2 C2
I simply cannot get me head around how anyone can think the BMW is a better (or even all that close) driving car. Don't get me wrong, I can murder it up and down the motorway in comfort and it's fine (better than Audis and Saabs I've owned in between 4 BMWs). It looks good, I love the e46. But it steers badly. It's slow at low revs (and doesn't get to high revs anything like as quick). It doesn't feel even slightly special and the M3 isn't different enough to make up the gap.
The 997 is night and day. It does nothing badly and so many things very well (it does need the sports exhaust to avoid doing 'noise' badly). How can anybody get bored which that rear grip?? If I didn't do 30k miles a year I would have the 997 as my daily in a heartbeat and my string of BMWs would come to an end without any regrets.
Yes, the 997 is a far better car than the E46 330ci Sport.I simply cannot get me head around how anyone can think the BMW is a better (or even all that close) driving car. Don't get me wrong, I can murder it up and down the motorway in comfort and it's fine (better than Audis and Saabs I've owned in between 4 BMWs). It looks good, I love the e46. But it steers badly. It's slow at low revs (and doesn't get to high revs anything like as quick). It doesn't feel even slightly special and the M3 isn't different enough to make up the gap.
The 997 is night and day. It does nothing badly and so many things very well (it does need the sports exhaust to avoid doing 'noise' badly). How can anybody get bored which that rear grip?? If I didn't do 30k miles a year I would have the 997 as my daily in a heartbeat and my string of BMWs would come to an end without any regrets.
Edited by ishay on Thursday 2nd February 23:39
The OP was discussing the justification of a c2s over an E90 M3.
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