RE: The new BMW M3

[Miguel]

havoc said:

Miguel,

Your first response...agreed, probably took your post too literally! Apologies...

Your second response... While the post was very tongue-in-cheek, the last paragraph sums my true feelings up - I don't like the direction BM are going in, but I know why they're doing it and as a business-person can respect it...they'd be fools to do otherwise.



But what are car forums for if not having a good whinge about something you can never change, eh?!?

Have a good weekend Miguel,

Martin.

Very true, Martin. That's exactly what these forums are for. Don'tcha just luv 'em? Have a great weekend, too.

Regards,

Miguel

[Miguel]

havoc said:

PS

Miguel said:

Sorry, Dave, but again the answer is because they forgot to consult you.

That is one of the gentlest double-edged put-downs I've ever read! Without even commenting on who I agree with (can see both points), that's a quality line...

Thanks, but keep in mind that the emphasis here should not be on the put down part. Dave, like all of us here, is a passionate gear-head, and we all tend to have strong opinions. Sometimes, I do get a bit carried away with my sarcasm but certainly meant no disrespect. What I said was meant to show strong disagreement, not a put down in any way.

Miguel

[Mr Whippy]

I talk too much too, but the integrity of everyone here shows that it never degrades to blows below the belt

I'm happy that BMW make the M3 full stop, just unlike the E30 and E36, this car has a wheel option in 19" that looks nicer than the 18"

Now the E30 and E36 from what I know both had one sized wheel option, and both looked very nice.

I know ultimately those who want the drive will get the 18's, but it's nasty marketing from BMW to make the people who just want looks pay more for it. If the 18's looked like the 19's BMW would probably loose out as many 'looks' buyers wouldn't see the difference.

Thats just another facet that gets me grumpy. As much as there was driver focus and engineering excellence in this car, there is, imho, far too much £££/marketing bollarks...

Dave

[DoctorD]

Mr Whippy said:

I know ultimately those who want the drive will get the 18's, but it's nasty marketing from BMW to make the people who just want looks pay more for it. If the 18's looked like the 19's BMW would probably loose out as many 'looks' buyers wouldn't see the difference.
Dave

Dave, I am as bad as everyone else in choosing the 19"ers over the 18"ers on my previous M3s, but these new ones on the E92 M3 are the first 18"ers that I would actual consider over the 19"s. The 19"s look a little too 'bling' on the E92, whereas they suited the E46 M3's character better. The 18"s look more 'serious' from a driving perspective, so maybe, just maybe BMW this time are trying to offer a decent enough spec as standard. I could get away with £3k of options on a E92, which is around half of what I managed on the E46.

[Miguel]

Mr Whippy said:

I talk too much too, but the integrity of everyone here shows that it never degrades to blows below the belt

I'm happy that BMW make the M3 full stop, just unlike the E30 and E36, this car has a wheel option in 19" that looks nicer than the 18"

Now the E30 and E36 from what I know both had one sized wheel option, and both looked very nice.

As I said before, but this time without the sarcasrm, you think the 19's look good, but not the 18's. That may turn out to be the general consensus, but maybe not, as DoctorD pointed out. Others may like the looks of the 18's. Again, to me, all this stuff about how the rims look is pretty trivial. We can just agree to disagree.

Mr Whippy said:

I know ultimately those who want the drive will get the 18's, but it's nasty marketing from BMW to make the people who just want looks pay more for it.

Again, we'll agree to disagree here. Not only do I think that it actually makes perfect sense, with a car that is meant to be a driver's car, for it to come with the right equipment for chassis dynamics and for those who want more bling to pay for it, but just because you think that the 18's look like crap, that doesn't mean that all will think that. While we're at it, could anyone here give me a link so I can see what both these rims look like. Now I'm curious.

Mr Whippy said:

If the 18's looked like the 19's BMW would probably loose out as many 'looks' buyers wouldn't see the difference.

Here's a thought that you didn't consider: I'm not sure I agree with the above statement because, I don't know how this is in the UK and the rest of Europe, I can tell you that in the US, even if the 18's were of the same design as the 19's, you can bet that plenty of people here would still want the 19's because now large rims and very low profile tires are in. It's a fashion statement. Just seeing how European cars are offering very large diameter rims as standard with even larger ones as an option, my guess is that overseas, people are doing the same thing, so even if the 18's and 19's were identical except for size, many would still opt for the larger option.

Mr Whippy said:

Thats just another facet that gets me grumpy. As much as there was driver focus and engineering excellence in this car, there is, imho, far too much £££/marketing bollarks...

Dave

And yet you focus as much on just looks that are for your taste, not even knowing if your taste in aesthetics is what everyone would like. Aesthetics are so subjective that, as much as I can see your point when you talk just about how focused a car is or should be, I just don't when it comes to looks because somehow you think that everyone has or should have exactly the same taste as you. See Dave? I talk too much, too.

Miguel

[squeezebm]

Looks like Mr Whippy has finally met his match with someone who can be bothered to return answers to all his drivel in equal measure.....well done that man

[Mr Whippy]

Miguel said:

Mr Whippy said:

I talk too much too, but the integrity of everyone here shows that it never degrades to blows below the belt

I'm happy that BMW make the M3 full stop, just unlike the E30 and E36, this car has a wheel option in 19" that looks nicer than the 18"

Now the E30 and E36 from what I know both had one sized wheel option, and both looked very nice.

As I said before, but this time without the sarcasrm, you think the 19's look good, but not the 18's. That may turn out to be the general consensus, but maybe not, as DoctorD pointed out. Others may like the looks of the 18's. Again, to me, all this stuff about how the rims look is pretty trivial. We can just agree to disagree.

Mr Whippy said:

I know ultimately those who want the drive will get the 18's, but it's nasty marketing from BMW to make the people who just want looks pay more for it.

Again, we'll agree to disagree here. Not only do I think that it actually makes perfect sense, with a car that is meant to be a driver's car, for it to come with the right equipment for chassis dynamics and for those who want more bling to pay for it, but just because you think that the 18's look like crap, that doesn't mean that all will think that. While we're at it, could anyone here give me a link so I can see what both these rims look like. Now I'm curious.

Mr Whippy said:

If the 18's looked like the 19's BMW would probably loose out as many 'looks' buyers wouldn't see the difference.

Here's a thought that you didn't consider: I'm not sure I agree with the above statement because, I don't know how this is in the UK and the rest of Europe, I can tell you that in the US, even if the 18's were of the same design as the 19's, you can bet that plenty of people here would still want the 19's because now large rims and very low profile tires are in. It's a fashion statement. Just seeing how European cars are offering very large diameter rims as standard with even larger ones as an option, my guess is that overseas, people are doing the same thing, so even if the 18's and 19's were identical except for size, many would still opt for the larger option.

Mr Whippy said:

Thats just another facet that gets me grumpy. As much as there was driver focus and engineering excellence in this car, there is, imho, far too much £££/marketing bollarks...

Dave

And yet you focus as much on just looks that are for your taste, not even knowing if your taste in aesthetics is what everyone would like. Aesthetics are so subjective that, as much as I can see your point when you talk just about how focused a car is or should be, I just don't when it comes to looks because somehow you think that everyone has or should have exactly the same taste as you. See Dave? I talk too much, too.

Miguel

Evo magazine, 19's on cover shot, 18's inside.

Pretty much same as the E46, the 18's had a ledged rim edge so the spokes looked significantly smaller than they really are, and they are a softer design.
The 19's are spoked right to the rim edge, have a flat face and a sharper more agressive look more in keeping with the E92 flame surfacing.

I'm not simply saying, the 18's are crap for my taste. But as a design element the 19's just fit the bill perfectly with the rest of the car. I think that is why the E46 M3 had the 19's so popular, they were just a nicer looking alloy.
Compare the 19's and the 18's and the 18 is almost designed to look smaller. The 18 and 19 would look almost identical in size (5% diameter difference) if they were the same style...

As per US market, I did consider that. The difference is 5%... no one would notice. It's the fact the styles are designed to emphasise the diameter on the 19 and subdue the size on the 18 that makes the difference visible. I'm quite sure if I edited an image with the 19's so they were 18's, you wouldn't be able to tell in isolation.

As per looks in general, I've mentioned a million times I like the form, and the 335Ci/Alpina. I don't have an aversion to the E92, infact I like it quite alot!
What gets me with the E92 M3 is the details. It's not that they are 'ugly' it's that they are poorly executed. Why does the MZ4 have pinched bonnet creases that match the flame styling of the car, yet the M3 has what looks like a blob extrusion melted on?
Why do those side vents extrude perfectly at a straight angle onto the panel gap. They don't curve to a smooth flat as they reach the edge, it's just a straight line. It's terrible really, it looks so cheap for a £55k+ car!

It's just these sorts of things that I don't like. The Z4 M'd up nicely, the E60 M'd up nicely, why has the E92 M'd up so badly? The nice proportions and sleek styling has just been sledge hammered with bad details. Like the 18" alloys, they are just not in keeping with the Bangle base, sleek and flame surfaced meets with melted chocolate design features.

Squeezebm, you really are such a funny guy! Hahaha, haha, ha, ha.... ha....

Dave

[whoami]

Jesus Christ, give it a ing rest.

[Miguel]

Dave, suffice it to say that I just don't look at a car's styling, especially one that's as meant to be driven as an M car, with the scrutiny that you do. I just want to drive it. The E60 may have M'd nicely, as you put it, but any E60 still makes me gag when I look at it. I'd still have an M5, if I could afford it, though. As for what you said about 19's vs. 18's, it's as much about bragging rights as it is about looks, so I don't agree with you there.

As for squeezebm's comment...

Miguel

[Pugsey]

One, small, question. There seems to be much authoritive talk on here that suggests that 18" wheels will be the drivers choice. Anyone actually back to backed with 19"s yet? Mind you there's a lot of 'authoritive' talk about how BMW have missed the mark in general with this car - none of which ties in with my experience so far. Looking forward to my car arriving - on 19"s.

[Miguel]

Pugsey said:

One, small, question. There seems to be much authoritive talk on here that suggests that 18" wheels will be the drivers choice. Anyone actually back to backed with 19"s yet? Mind you there's a lot of 'authoritive' talk about how BMW have missed the mark in general with this car - none of which ties in with my experience so far. Looking forward to my car arriving - on 19"s.

I haven't driven the car, and I'm not pretending to be an authority on anything. I took Steve Sutcliffe's word from his article in the June 18 issue of Autocar, which I posted earlier, in which he claimed that BMW chassis people said that the 19's do nothing for dynamics.

Miguel

[Mr Whippy]

whoami said:

Jesus Christ, give it a ing rest.

You are not forced to read it, and it wasn't even posted for you, it was a response to someone else.

Your off topic posts having a dig at posters seem to extend elsewhere so I'll just ignore you now thanks.

Miguel said:

Dave, suffice it to say that I just don't look at a car's styling, especially one that's as meant to be driven as an M car, with the scrutiny that you do. I just want to drive it. The E60 may have M'd nicely, as you put it, but any E60 still makes me gag when I look at it. I'd still have an M5, if I could afford it, though. As for what you said about 19's vs. 18's, it's as much about bragging rights as it is about looks, so I don't agree with you there.

Miguel

So the E60 M5 makes you gag? So it's ok for you to make generalised statements on looks, but not me while giving particular focus to why?

Bragging rights? I'm sorry, but as said about four pages ago, if BMW offered THE wheel for performance in the same style as the 19" (the one we know has been styled to be more pleasing), then it would offer up both looks AND performance. They wouldn't need another option!

People are only offered bragging rights because a visibly different AND more expensive option exists that can be clearly identified as the bigger and expensive one to brag about. Remove the possibility and the issue is resolved. BMW M have marketed that in there, so yes it's about bragging rights, but only via the looks. If they looked the same it'd be harder to say they cost £1500 extra when you need a tape measure to actually be able to tell (or read the tyre wall info) hardly cool to get a tape measure out to proove to your relatively shallow car friends that you bought the bigger ones!

Dave

[Pugsey]

Miguel said:

Pugsey said:

One, small, question. There seems to be much authoritive talk on here that suggests that 18" wheels will be the drivers choice. Anyone actually back to backed with 19"s yet? Mind you there's a lot of 'authoritive' talk about how BMW have missed the mark in general with this car - none of which ties in with my experience so far. Looking forward to my car arriving - on 19"s.

I haven't driven the car, and I'm not pretending to be an authority on anything. I took Steve Sutcliffe's word from his article in the June 18 issue of Autocar, which I posted earlier, in which he claimed that BMW chassis people said that the 19's do nothing for dynamics.

Miguel

That was rather my point. Unlike the E46 where we KNOW that the 18"s are the drivers choice - albeit marginally and in particular circumstances - the only info. so far on the new car is a third hand statement that, apparently, '19"s do nothing for dynamics'. Why then is there an assumption by some people that the 18"s will be the drivers choice? No biggy though - I'll go with what I fancy as will others and I'm sure we'll all be happy.

[Mr Whippy]

CSl had 19's, and CS, so I guess there is something to be had wrt to absolute performance.

I just think the 18's vs 19's is a bit about personal preference to the comfort on, at times, pretty crappy UK roads.

Dave

[Miguel]

Mr Whippy said:

Miguel said:

Dave, suffice it to say that I just don't look at a car's styling, especially one that's as meant to be driven as an M car, with the scrutiny that you do. I just want to drive it. The E60 may have M'd nicely, as you put it, but any E60 still makes me gag when I look at it. I'd still have an M5, if I could afford it, though. As for what you said about 19's vs. 18's, it's as much about bragging rights as it is about looks, so I don't agree with you there.

Miguel

So the E60 M5 makes you gag? So it's ok for you to make generalised statements on looks, but not me while giving particular focus to why?

Oh please!!! Get off your high horse, Dave. Did I say that you weren't allowed to express your views on the looks of the car? You missed my point entirely, which was that you'll go on and on about how a car is for driving, but then you seem to put even more emphasis on its looks. To me, if a car that I like to drive is good looking, I consider that a bonus, not a must. Hence, my comment on the E60 M5.

And yes, if I do make a comment on a car's aesthetics, it will be pretty general. Again, I don't harp on each and every square millimeter of its looks. You do, and that's fine, but the other point I made concerning looks was that it's a personal thing. Just because you don't like something, others may and vice-versa. You go on about a car's looks as if what you like is what everyone else should too.

Mr Whippy said:

Bragging rights? I'm sorry, but as said about four pages ago, if BMW offered THE wheel for performance in the same style as the 19" (the one we know has been styled to be more pleasing), then it would offer up both looks AND performance. They wouldn't need another option!

People are only offered bragging rights because a visibly different AND more expensive option exists that can be clearly identified as the bigger and expensive one to brag about. Remove the possibility and the issue is resolved. BMW M have marketed that in there, so yes it's about bragging rights, but only via the looks. If they looked the same it'd be harder to say they cost £1500 extra when you need a tape measure to actually be able to tell (or read the tyre wall info) hardly cool to get a tape measure out to proove to your relatively shallow car friends that you bought the bigger ones!

Dave

Just because you can't tell them apart if they look the same except for size, that doesn't mean that others can't.

Miguel

[DoctorD]

Pugsey said:

Miguel said:

Pugsey said:

One, small, question. There seems to be much authoritive talk on here that suggests that 18" wheels will be the drivers choice. Anyone actually back to backed with 19"s yet? Mind you there's a lot of 'authoritive' talk about how BMW have missed the mark in general with this car - none of which ties in with my experience so far. Looking forward to my car arriving - on 19"s.

I haven't driven the car, and I'm not pretending to be an authority on anything. I took Steve Sutcliffe's word from his article in the June 18 issue of Autocar, which I posted earlier, in which he claimed that BMW chassis people said that the 19's do nothing for dynamics.

Miguel

That was rather my point. Unlike the E46 where we KNOW that the 18"s are the drivers choice - albeit marginally and in particular circumstances - the only info. so far on the new car is a third hand statement that, apparently, '19"s do nothing for dynamics'. Why then is there an assumption by some people that the 18"s will be the drivers choice? No biggy though - I'll go with what I fancy as will others and I'm sure we'll all be happy.

Unlike on the E46 M3 the 18" and 19" wheels use 'the same' width tyre. What this means is that when looking at both 18" and 19" wheeled cars they make a similar footprint. (I always thought the E46 M3 looked under-nourished on the narrower 18" footprint). So that's why the BMW engineers were saying there was no dynamic advantage to the 19" wheels.

No journalist has tested the 19"s as yet (as far as I know) since BMW have fitted 18" wheels to all of their press cars. In time I'm sure we will.

The reason why the photos in EVO were of 19" wheeled M3 on the front cover but 18" wheeled M3 in the article was the car we tested had the 18"ers. When we returned to the UK after Malaga the various magazine photographers were invited to a studio shoot in Norwich the following day. This is fairly typical of BMW's press launches.

[Mr Whippy]

Miguel said:

Mr Whippy said:

Miguel said:

Dave, suffice it to say that I just don't look at a car's styling, especially one that's as meant to be driven as an M car, with the scrutiny that you do. I just want to drive it. The E60 may have M'd nicely, as you put it, but any E60 still makes me gag when I look at it. I'd still have an M5, if I could afford it, though. As for what you said about 19's vs. 18's, it's as much about bragging rights as it is about looks, so I don't agree with you there.

Miguel

So the E60 M5 makes you gag? So it's ok for you to make generalised statements on looks, but not me while giving particular focus to why?

Oh please!!! Get off your high horse, Dave. Did I say that you weren't allowed to express your views on the looks of the car? You missed my point entirely, which was that you'll go on and on about how a car is for driving, but then you seem to put even more emphasis on its looks. To me, if a car that I like to drive is good looking, I consider that a bonus, not a must. Hence, my comment on the E60 M5.

And yes, if I do make a comment on a car's aesthetics, it will be pretty general. Again, I don't harp on each and every square millimeter of its looks. You do, and that's fine, but the other point I made concerning looks was that it's a personal thing. Just because you don't like something, others may and vice-versa. You go on about a car's looks as if what you like is what everyone else should too.

Mr Whippy said:

Bragging rights? I'm sorry, but as said about four pages ago, if BMW offered THE wheel for performance in the same style as the 19" (the one we know has been styled to be more pleasing), then it would offer up both looks AND performance. They wouldn't need another option!

People are only offered bragging rights because a visibly different AND more expensive option exists that can be clearly identified as the bigger and expensive one to brag about. Remove the possibility and the issue is resolved. BMW M have marketed that in there, so yes it's about bragging rights, but only via the looks. If they looked the same it'd be harder to say they cost £1500 extra when you need a tape measure to actually be able to tell (or read the tyre wall info) hardly cool to get a tape measure out to proove to your relatively shallow car friends that you bought the bigger ones!

Dave

Just because you can't tell them apart if they look the same except for size, that doesn't mean that others can't.

Miguel

My point about looks was regards BMW's focus, not mine. I KNOW it's a drivers car, but BMW are not making it one. As much as I missed your point, you and a few others have missed my points entirely. I'm not on a high horse, I'm discussing it for fun. Not quite sure what I could prove or do anyway, just discussion and sharing my POV however limited that may be from a hands on position...

As per details and liking or not. Fine, but there is no doubt that it's cheap *when* you compare the Z4M's styling, which fit the rest of the car. I'm sure anyone who works in design could offer their view that the M additions to the Z4 fit the Z4 styling, the M additions to the E92 styling do not fit. It's not about nice or not, the buldge was nice on the E46 with a bevelled edge to the steps, but the 'sharper' flame surfaced E92 actually has a softer buldge? How does that work when the Z4M uses sharp pinched lines for the bonnet buldge? It's just not consistent.

But since it's my opinion only, I'm interested in others views why BMW settled for a blob on a flame surface car. What design ideology does that follow? Laziness?


As per wheels, just because I can't tell them apart? Eh? Did I say that? They don't even exist for me not to be able to tell them apart on size. My POINT, which you missed, gosh get off your high horse is that a 5% difference is bugger all, and I doubt any one person could tell the size in isolation, without reference to the tyre spec or another one with the larger wheels nearby!

Not a problem, but my example of another token gesture as to why BMW care about the M as more about Marketing than Motorsport, because if it was about Motorsport it'd be a smaller lighter single design option full stop, that was styled to fit with the car from the start (ie the 19" style), but in a size that is optimum for the car. Infact it's very possible the 19" wheel is the optimum for the chassis (maybe not for our roads or comfort), and it's just another 'default' option.

Also curious if the sunroof option comes for - £2000 for saving BMW the expense of a CF roof?

Dave

[Zod]

DoctorD said:

Unlike on the E46 M3 the 18" and 19" wheels use 'the same' width tyre. What this means is that when looking at both 18" and 19" wheeled cars they make a similar footprint. (I always thought the E46 M3 looked under-nourished on the narrower 18" footprint). So that's why the BMW engineers were saying there was no dynamic advantage to the 19" wheels.

Steve, the E46 used the same width tyre on 18 and 19" wheels: 225/45 18 & 255/40 18 vs 225/40 19 and 255/35 19. Are you thinking of the CSL tyre sizes?

[DoctorD]

Zod said:

DoctorD said:

Unlike on the E46 M3 the 18" and 19" wheels use 'the same' width tyre. What this means is that when looking at both 18" and 19" wheeled cars they make a similar footprint. (I always thought the E46 M3 looked under-nourished on the narrower 18" footprint). So that's why the BMW engineers were saying there was no dynamic advantage to the 19" wheels.

Steve, the E46 used the same width tyre on 18 and 19" wheels: 225/45 18 & 255/40 18 vs 225/40 19 and 255/35 19. Are you thinking of the CSL tyre sizes?

That's true. What I meant to say was that the 18" and 19" rims on the E92 are the same width, whereas I seem to remember that they were smaller (i.e. the 18" ones) on the E46 M3. Either way we were all surprised to find the 18" rims looked OK on the E92, wheras they just never did on the E46.

[Miguel]

Mr Whippy said:

My point about looks was regards BMW's focus, not mine. I KNOW it's a drivers car, but BMW are not making it one.

As you said, it still is a driver's car, especially compared to most others out there. Of course, Steve Sutcliffe said that as much as he liked the car overall and the engine in particular, he didn't like the steering and a few other things as much as he expected to. In addition, he picked the RS4 as the winner. Sure, Audi's been trying to improve their RS models by giving them some steering feel, rear-biased all-wheel-drive system, etc. For Audi to get closer to BMW in that regard is one thing, but to beat them is a shame. Still, that's one guy's opinion. More to the point, will most M3 owners even notice? Probably not, but you'd figure that BMW wouldn't let it go that far.

Mr Whippy said:

As much as I missed your point, you and a few others have missed my points entirely.

Possibly. It's also possible that we did not miss your point but just don't agree. You have the tendency to not ony miss someone else's point entirely, but to also completely dismiss an opinion different from yours as an impossiblity. Judging from the comments that others made toward you, I don't think I'm the only one who got that impression. Sorry, Dave. Having very strong opinions is one thing. When it's to the point of dismissing anyone else's opinions as rubbish, it is a bit much.

Mr Whippy said:

I'm not on a high horse, I'm discussing it for fun. Not quite sure what I could prove or do anyway, just discussion and sharing my POV however limited that may be from a hands on position...

We're all gearheads, and we all enjoy discussing this stuff here. Otherwise, we wouldn't spend the time that we do on it. What prompted me to say that was your comment below:

Mr Whippy said:

So the E60 M5 makes you gag? So it's ok for you to make generalised statements on looks, but not me while giving particular focus to why?

To me it's more about driving than it is about looks, but since this is a discussion forum, you're free to express your POV on looks or anything else you desire. Where exactly did I say that you could not? What I did say is that you seem to act as if your opinion is gospel. For example, you state everything that you don't like about the design, but you also seem to be saying that they shouldn't have made it like that and that because they did, now no one will want to buy the car. That implies that you think that everyone else must see it the same way that you do. I was simply saying that it ain't so.

Mr Whippy said:

As per details and liking or not. Fine, but there is no doubt that it's cheap *when* you compare the Z4M's styling, which fit the rest of the car. I'm sure anyone who works in design could offer their view that the M additions to the Z4 fit the Z4 styling, the M additions to the E92 styling do not fit.

Well, whoever designed the M3 does work in design, do they not? Plenty of designers have criticized each other, and many certainly voiced negative opinions about Chris Bangle. It's not as if all designers agree on everything. Again, you're stating your opinion of aesthetics as fact. Sorry Dave, but that's what I'm getting from your comments.

Mr Whippy said:

It's not about nice or not, the buldge was nice on the E46 with a bevelled edge to the steps, but the 'sharper' flame surfaced E92 actually has a softer buldge? How does that work when the Z4M uses sharp pinched lines for the bonnet buldge? It's just not consistent.

Design isn't always consistent either. And even if what you say is correct, cars aren't sold just to designers. They're sold to the general public.

Mr Whippy said:

But since it's my opinion only, I'm interested in others views why BMW settled for a blob on a flame surface car. What design ideology does that follow? Laziness?

Well, I'll give you my opinion. Feel free to disagree. You wouldn't dare. If you look at the E46 versus the E90/92, I think that the latter is merely a nice looking car, whereas the former looks flawless to me. The transformation of the E46 coupe to E46 M3 seems somewhat subtle. With the E92, OTOH, they turned it into the M3 by making it look much more aggressive than the standard car. I believe that the reason is that they wanted it to stand out because often, when one buys such a car, they don't want it to be confused with a run of the mill E92 coupe. I, personally, like sleepers, but a lot of people want to stand out if they spend that kind of money on a car.

The other reason (again, just my opinion) is that BMW seems to be trying to get away from Chris Bangle's design cues. Bangle's first car to be designed the way he wanted it to be was the current 7-series, followed by the 5. When BMW introduced the current 3-series, they knew that they couldn't take too many risks on that car, being such a huge seller. To me, it looks like it's the one that was the least Bangle-ized.

Furthermore, I've read that the Z4 doesn't sell well. When the 7 got facelifted, it lost some of its unconventional design features--downright weird ones, if you ask me. The 6 also seems to be more subtle in its look, and its profile shows little to no Bangle in it. I think that BMW is trying to get away from what made Bangles designs look like they do, hence, a more aggressive looking M3 with no more flame surfacing than the original 3 already had. Any extra features it needs to have, such as the power bulge, are purposely styled to not go with a flame surface design. Again, all my opinion.

Mr Whippy said:

As per wheels, just because I can't tell them apart? Eh? Did I say that? They don't even exist for me not to be able to tell them apart on size. My POINT, which you missed, gosh get off your high horse is that a 5% difference is bugger all, and I doubt any one person could tell the size in isolation, without reference to the tyre spec or another one with the larger wheels nearby!

Again, you missed the point. Just as there are people out there who will check off every option when they buy a new car, there are plenty, nowadays, who want the biggest diameter rim and tire package they can get. Some will go to the aftermarket for something truly ridiculous, while others will limit themselves to the biggest available as a factory option. I see plenty of examples every day.

To say that it's a 5% difference is irrelevant. They won't buy the larger set is based on how YOU think. These people seem to get a kick out of seeing as much rim and as little tire (sidewall height) as possible. And if you're saying that you can tell wheels apart if they're identical except for size even if they differ in size by 5%, then do you think that you're the only one who can? Others can, too. It's not to difficult, really, just look at the tire's sidewall. But, again, that's missing the point. The point is that if bigger is available, they'll want it. If not, manufacurers wouldn't make it available, and neither would the aftermarket.

Mr Whippy said:

Not a problem, but my example of another token gesture as to why BMW care about the M as more about Marketing than Motorsport, because if it was about Motorsport it'd be a smaller lighter single design option full stop, that was styled to fit with the car from the start (ie the 19" style), but in a size that is optimum for the car. Infact it's very possible the 19" wheel is the optimum for the chassis (maybe not for our roads or comfort), and it's just another 'default' option.

Also curious if the sunroof option comes for - £2000 for saving BMW the expense of a CF roof?

Dave

All mainstream companies have to give in to all sorts of marketing aspects. If not, they wouldn't stay in business for too long. That's the sad reality. Of course, M is Motorsport. Emphasis on the motor, though.

So you're saying that in your opinion the 19" wheel is styled in a way that goes with the styling of the car, but not the 18"? When I get to a bookstore, I'll check out Evo to see what both rims look like. What I do wonder (and I'm being serious here) is if they took a poll of actual buyers and prospective buyers of the new M3, what would they think about all the different aspects of the styling of the car that you criticized. Somehow, I don't think that BMW purposely designed the car to alienate their buyers. Again, I respect your opinions, even if I don't agree with them, but you should see that many others will not see it your way. And some probably will. The point is that I just don't see too many people looking at the new M3 and not buying it because they dislike the styling of it the way that you do.

Miguel