RE: The new BMW M3

[Olf]

Garlick said:

Olf said:

If I was the editor I'd be asking for a rewite on crud like that. How does it compare to the 4 seat merc, how does it compare to the forthcoming RS5 (if there's one the S5 if not)...

Hi Olf, I am the site manager and Adam, who wrote the piece, is the PH Editor and a hugely experienced road tester- being road test ed for Autocar previously.

We wanted a first drive and that's what this piece is, it's not supposed to be a comparison test (that will follow- as you will realise we can't take competitor cars along to launches). When I saw the copy I was more than happy with it, I didn't see it as crud as you suggest.

I'm happy with the piece, as Adam says at the end, the car will suit most people- I guess you can say the same about the feature?

G

Garlick,

I didn't say the whole piece was crud. I said that the comment on the Cayman was crud.

The context of the statement was a summing of the steering problems the reviewer feels the car has. Well thats fine, I don't have the experience to argue otherwise... but, closing a significant part of the review by picking on a potentially fatal (in terms of the cars capability) criticism, benchmarked against a mid-engined two seater sports car which bring with it it's own significant compromises over the M3 philosophy, misses the point completely.

Same for the fuel economy comment whilst there is a slight caveat about driving hard, the overall suggestion is that there is a fuel consumption issue with a quoted 11mpg. I'd be interested to know what current CSL drivers eek from their car's on the track.

Considering this is proabably one of the most important perfomance car launches of the year I just expected more insight even if the depth was to be compromised due to (I'm guessing) a word budget.

Just my opinion of course.

Edited by Olf on Monday 9th July 13:16

[Olf]

p.s. Yes I do think I could do better. Send me to spain to drive an M3 and I'll prove it.

[m12_nathan]

CSL fuel is about 9 on track, 17 round town in traffic, 30 on the motorway. I average about 22-23 in everyday use.

[philj]

In 2003 BMW gave you lot the car you seem to be after, the CSL. Lighter, more focussed, more like the original M3. Despite loads of initial interest, BMW struggled to sell them.

BMW are a business and therefore their ultimate goal is profit. They have to continue to broaden the appeal of each new M model. If this results in some dilution of the M brand, then so be it.

The forthcoming CSL will take care of those who want a more focussed car, provided they have a fat enough wallet.

The M3 will be a huge success. In a darker colour, with the larger wheels on, it will look great. With the RS4 shortly out of production, and AMG’s fitted with slushboxes, where is the competition?

Oh and

pistonbroak said:

It was I who suggested (rather more tongue-in-cheek than you assume) that I 'think I'll save 5 grand and get an Alpina B3' - that's the new Biturbo one by the way, and it produces 360bhp and 368lb/ft of torque - the latter more than 24% more than the new M3 even if the BMW has a corral more horses. In last week's Autocar Steve Sutcliffe hinted that the Alpina may be the better everyday road car and the better of the two, unless the new M3 'rewrites the rule book' - which Adam Towler suggests is doesn't.

I have owned two M3s, both the E46 variant. I bought a 6-month old M3 SMG in 2003 and a new manual CSL in 2004 which (thank god) I sold pretty fast, only because the depreciation turned out to be off-the-edge-of-a-cliff. I loved both, and still prefer the looks of the E46 M3 to the new one.

One thing you can't deny about an Alpina - it's a rare sight, whereas an M3 is almost ubiquitous. One of the things about car ownership I hate the most is depreciation - the biggest cost by far - and it's a safe bet that in 5 years' time a 2007 Alpina B3S will be worth MORE than a 2007 M3 even though it cost less in the first place. And Alpina spec 'em up well, too.

Maybe I'd change my mind after driving both, but at the moment it's the exclusivity of the Alpina that appeals.

The CSL didn’t come in manual. And regarding depreciation, yes it was bad to start with, but today 4 year old cars are still over £30k, so on balance, they have held up very well. Alpina’s well specced! Not necessarily! Have you seen what you get with a D3? £2500 premium if you want to vary from their very limited option list.

[Olf]

m12_nathan said:

CSL fuel is about 9 on track, 17 round town in traffic, 30 on the motorway. I average about 22-23 in everyday use.

So a full blooded hoon across the spanish mountains at 'SPA' like speeds followed by a few laps of a track means 11mpg is starting to sound if not reasonable then at least bearable and certainly not cause for concern.

(Unless you have short arms and long pockets, in which case an M3 is probably not the motor for you).

[LoftyD]

edb49 said:

RS4 - I don't want 4WD
RS5 - Looks horrible to my eyes
M3 - So far reviews have been underwhelming
C63 AMG - Very positive reviews, maybe this is the small performance saloon of choice?

lol!
Overall length mm: 4725
Overall width mm: 1795
Turning circle m: 10.8

Kerb weight acc. to EC kg: 1730

But, a sign of the times no less

[Zod]

LoftyD said:

edb49 said:

RS4 - I don't want 4WD
RS5 - Looks horrible to my eyes
M3 - So far reviews have been underwhelming
C63 AMG - Very positive reviews, maybe this is the small performance saloon of choice?

lol!
Overall length mm: 4725
Overall width mm: 1795
Turning circle m: 10.8

Kerb weight acc. to EC kg: 1730

But, a sign of the times no less

plus big engine plus slushbox = standard AMG recipe.

[pistonbroak]

m12_nathan said:

Manual CSL?

housemaster said:

I suggest he means the CS........or he might be talking out of his arse of course...

natch, CSL was of course SMG II (too). Alzheimers onset, G-force from my Stannah stairlift gives me nausea, dementia, amnesia and STML. Sold the CSL without driving it, didn't make a profit because I quickly discovered that 75% of other 'buyers' were doing the same thing and there was no market for it. Wished I could have kept it but £62k was insane, I would have lost £32k of that by now (or more)

[Zod]

pistonbroak said:

m12_nathan said:

Manual CSL?

housemaster said:

I suggest he means the CS........or he might be talking out of his arse of course...

natch, CSL was of course SMG II (too). Alzheimers onset, G-force from my Stannah stairlift gives me nausea, dementia, amnesia and STML. Sold the CSL without driving it, didn't make a profit because I quickly discovered that 75% of other 'buyers' were doing the same thing and there was no market for it. Wished I could have kept it but £62k was insane, I would have lost £32k of that by now (or more)

more like £30k and it's hardly a loss if you drive the car: you'd have paid £7.5k a year for the privilege of driving one of the best cars on the road. Bargain if you ask me.

[housemaster]

pistonbroak said:

m12_nathan said:

Manual CSL?

housemaster said:

I suggest he means the CS........or he might be talking out of his arse of course...

natch, CSL was of course SMG II (too). Alzheimers onset, G-force from my Stannah stairlift gives me nausea, dementia, amnesia and STML. Sold the CSL without driving it, didn't make a profit because I quickly discovered that 75% of other 'buyers' were doing the same thing and there was no market for it. Wished I could have kept it but £62k was insane, I would have lost £32k of that by now (or more)

When in a hole..

[PetrolTed]

BMW M Series, Porsche RS ... are they all moving too far away from their original design goals in order to sell to the masses? Shame - the cars would sell anyway, but the 'halo' effect of these models may be diminishing. I was very disappointed with the new M5 for example - a car with a confusing identity.

[Zod]

PetrolTed said:

BMW M Series, Porsche RS ... are they all moving too far away from their original design goals in order to sell to the masses? Shame - the cars would sell anyway, but the 'halo' effect of these models may be diminishing. I was very disappointed with the new M5 for example - a car with a confusing identity.

Hmm, I'm not confused by mine: it does exactly what I want - holds four people and lots of luggage, accelerates like a thing possessed and handles amazingly well for a big four door saloon.

I'd rather drive my old CSL, but it doesn't do the people and luggage carrying bit.

Edited by Zod on Monday 9th July 16:53

[RefinedRogue]

I am holding out on my opinion of the styling until I see one in person. Also, I can't wait to hear the V8. I agree that it is a shame to see the inline 6 go, but the power levels that are required now there is little else that they could do to keep up. Should be a fun drive as soon as it comes over to the US.

[Pugsey]

Zod said:

PetrolTed said:

BMW M Series, Porsche RS ... are they all moving too far away from their original design goals in order to sell to the masses? Shame - the cars would sell anyway, but the 'halo' effect of these models may be diminishing. I was very disappointed with the new M5 for example - a car with a confusing identity.

Hmm, I'm not confused by mine: it does exactly what I want - holds four people and lots of luggage, accelerates like a thing possessed and handles amazingly well for a big four door saloon.

I'd rather drive my old CSL, but it doesn't do the people and luggage carrying bit.

Edited by Zod on Monday 9th July 16:53

Yes yes, it may do all those things but it doesn't handle as well as a Cayman - in fact I doubt it will loop like a Pitts Special either - so it is clearly totally useless. Meaningless conparisons are what we need, plus 'knowledgeable' coments from scores of people who have obviously driven the car! Not inputs from people like you who actually own and use the car for what it was designed for!

Porsche RS for the masses!? REALLY? Remind me again - how many 997GT3s and GT3RSs are coming into the UK.

[bad_roo]

Garlick said:

I'm happy with the piece, as Adam says at the end, the car will suit most people- I guess you can say the same about the feature?

G

Let me tell you what I thought of the new M...

[bad_roo]

I wonder whether the steering of this M3 is now bettered by the RS4. That would really be something.

[Zod]

bad_roo said:

I wonder whether the steering of this M3 is now bettered by the RS4. That would really be something.

it can't be as bad as that, surely?

(haven't driven either, so opinions based purely on relative engine positions and prejudice )

[PetrolTed]

Zod said:

PetrolTed said:

BMW M Series, Porsche RS ... are they all moving too far away from their original design goals in order to sell to the masses? Shame - the cars would sell anyway, but the 'halo' effect of these models may be diminishing. I was very disappointed with the new M5 for example - a car with a confusing identity.

Hmm, I'm not confused by mine: it does exactly what I want - holds four people and lots of luggage, accelerates like a thing possessed and handles amazingly well for a big four door saloon.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's poor at what it does, it just wasn't what I expected. A few too many electronic gizmos getting in between me and the car.

[PetrolTed]

Olf said:

If I was the editor I'd be asking for a rewite on crud like that. How does it compare to the 4 seat merc, how does it compare to the forthcoming RS5 (if there's one the S5 if not)...

Way too harsh. This was just the type of review I've been craving since I set up PH. Gives a good insight into what a new car is like without fawning to the manufacturer and from someone who's got sufficient experience that I trust his opinion. I thought it very useful.

Anyway... back to the car...

[Olf]

PetrolTed said:

Olf said:

If I was the editor I'd be asking for a rewite on crud like that. How does it compare to the 4 seat merc, how does it compare to the forthcoming RS5 (if there's one the S5 if not)...

Way too harsh. This was just the type of review I've been craving since I set up PH. Gives a good insight into what a new car is like without fawning to the manufacturer and from someone who's got sufficient experience that I trust his opinion. I thought it very useful.

Anyway... back to the car...

Well I've explained myself a bit better in the later post - if you still think it's too harsh fair doo's. I'll go back to pinching babies.