Elise to Z4MC?
Discussion
Morning,
Bit of a strange one here...I have owned my Elise for approx. 4 years and do honestly love it but there always comes a time when I fancy a change.
Obviously being a car fan I have read all the usual articles in magazines and some threads on here, and decided upon a very short list from which to try...Cayman S, Z4MC, early 997.
I want to move away from the basic feel of the Elise and perhaps go for something a little more refinded and practical, whilst still retaining the 'sportscar' feel and not going too big, i.e. M3. Having said this, the car certainly won't be used everyday and ideally want it to feel special come the weekend. Ideally, what I want is a german TVR!
Cayman S - have now test driven and to be honest I wasn't taken with it. Lovely looking car, build quality as you'd expect was top notch, but it just felt a little too smooth and polished to be regarded as 'special'. In terms of pace, I'm sure on an autobahn it would feel very good, but it did feel that it needed to be encouraged a fair bit to get it going...presumably down to the torque fig being at the higher end of the rev-range. This sort of characteristic is what I want to get away from, as it is very much like the Elise, but in my opinion didn't execute it as well. For a near £50k price tag I don't think the Cayman is value for money when looking for an exciting drive when coming from a Lotus, and by exciting I don't mean thumping along at xxxmph.
After driving the Cayman I have now ruled out the 997, as (maybe wrong for doing so) I feel that this will be no better - perhaps they're just too good at being the quick daily driver which I'm not looking for.
I really want to drive the Z4MC - and hoping to this week - but means driving to the midlands as nobody can seem to source one for me in this area unless I effectively agree to buy one over the phone, before I can get a test drive in the thing. From what I have read, whilst being completely different to the Elise, the Z should be the more entertaining drive and more of a hooligan - more of the type of driver's car I'm hankering for - as despite people's perception of the Elise, that can also be quite tricky on the limit due to engine position and short wheelbase.
Concerns I have are:
The steering feel - I'm sure it'll be no Elise but are they really that bad in terms of feedback?
Suspension - a lot of articles talk about stiff/crashing ride - surely no worse than an Elise, or enough to put someone off if they're looking for an entertaining drive?
Value - they seem to have plummeted recently which is good for second-hand buyers, and I know the new model is due out next year with a folding metal roof, hence doing away with need for the fixed head coupe - but could this mean the current Z4MC is the last in the line of 'pure' M coupes and should therefore get to a certain price level and remain, or would values be hit further?
Can anyone give any idea on what to look out for other than the crucial 1,200 mile service on a used one?
Can anyone give indications of maintenance costs / consumables per year?
Can anyone tell me where I can get a white one!!
Finally, excuse the long post!
Thanks
Rich
Bit of a strange one here...I have owned my Elise for approx. 4 years and do honestly love it but there always comes a time when I fancy a change.
Obviously being a car fan I have read all the usual articles in magazines and some threads on here, and decided upon a very short list from which to try...Cayman S, Z4MC, early 997.
I want to move away from the basic feel of the Elise and perhaps go for something a little more refinded and practical, whilst still retaining the 'sportscar' feel and not going too big, i.e. M3. Having said this, the car certainly won't be used everyday and ideally want it to feel special come the weekend. Ideally, what I want is a german TVR!
Cayman S - have now test driven and to be honest I wasn't taken with it. Lovely looking car, build quality as you'd expect was top notch, but it just felt a little too smooth and polished to be regarded as 'special'. In terms of pace, I'm sure on an autobahn it would feel very good, but it did feel that it needed to be encouraged a fair bit to get it going...presumably down to the torque fig being at the higher end of the rev-range. This sort of characteristic is what I want to get away from, as it is very much like the Elise, but in my opinion didn't execute it as well. For a near £50k price tag I don't think the Cayman is value for money when looking for an exciting drive when coming from a Lotus, and by exciting I don't mean thumping along at xxxmph.
After driving the Cayman I have now ruled out the 997, as (maybe wrong for doing so) I feel that this will be no better - perhaps they're just too good at being the quick daily driver which I'm not looking for.
I really want to drive the Z4MC - and hoping to this week - but means driving to the midlands as nobody can seem to source one for me in this area unless I effectively agree to buy one over the phone, before I can get a test drive in the thing. From what I have read, whilst being completely different to the Elise, the Z should be the more entertaining drive and more of a hooligan - more of the type of driver's car I'm hankering for - as despite people's perception of the Elise, that can also be quite tricky on the limit due to engine position and short wheelbase.
Concerns I have are:
The steering feel - I'm sure it'll be no Elise but are they really that bad in terms of feedback?
Suspension - a lot of articles talk about stiff/crashing ride - surely no worse than an Elise, or enough to put someone off if they're looking for an entertaining drive?
Value - they seem to have plummeted recently which is good for second-hand buyers, and I know the new model is due out next year with a folding metal roof, hence doing away with need for the fixed head coupe - but could this mean the current Z4MC is the last in the line of 'pure' M coupes and should therefore get to a certain price level and remain, or would values be hit further?
Can anyone give any idea on what to look out for other than the crucial 1,200 mile service on a used one?
Can anyone give indications of maintenance costs / consumables per year?
Can anyone tell me where I can get a white one!!
Finally, excuse the long post!
Thanks
Rich
I went thru a similar change last year. Only from 4 years in various VX derivatives (and a very very short flirt with a WR1 Impreza a Clio Trophy and an S2000.)
Your other questions I can't really help with.
Great car and very highly recommended. I smile every time I get in mine and only rarely miss my last VXT.
Good luck.
RichQuy said:
what I want is a german TVR!
Z4M will fill that requirement nicely.RichQuy said:
Concerns I have are:
The steering feel - I'm sure it'll be no Elise but are they really that bad in terms of feedback?
In my mind one of only 2 big weak areas of the car. But the impression is probably worse than the reality if you have come from an Elise.The steering feel - I'm sure it'll be no Elise but are they really that bad in terms of feedback?
RichQuy said:
Suspension
The other weak area. If the road is not smooth the car can bounce around all over the place and holding a tidy line is almost impossible.Your other questions I can't really help with.
Great car and very highly recommended. I smile every time I get in mine and only rarely miss my last VXT.
Good luck.
Edited by R1_NUR on Tuesday 29th April 14:15
Edited by R1_NUR on Tuesday 29th April 14:16
after going from m3 to 2002 K seried 111s I can give you one bit of advice.
Go drive a modern Exige S or elise SC.
They will be a similar cost to the z4mc, and they are utterly, utterly mint.
I took an exige S out recently, and it destroyed the 111s in terms of power (felt similar to a M3, so will be similar to a z4mc in outright pace + both rev to 8.5K happily). The US spec interior was much more refined, and servo assisted brakes and other niceties such as aircon made the exigeS way more comfy and quieter than my 111s.
I'd buy one for sure.
So check out an elise SC/exige S - lotus have moved the game on a lot even though they look the same IMO.
That said, I'd love a z4mc too. Too many options
(and I thought the caymanS was slightly gutless too, and got shot down for that, so nice someone else agrees)
Go drive a modern Exige S or elise SC.
They will be a similar cost to the z4mc, and they are utterly, utterly mint.
I took an exige S out recently, and it destroyed the 111s in terms of power (felt similar to a M3, so will be similar to a z4mc in outright pace + both rev to 8.5K happily). The US spec interior was much more refined, and servo assisted brakes and other niceties such as aircon made the exigeS way more comfy and quieter than my 111s.
I'd buy one for sure.
So check out an elise SC/exige S - lotus have moved the game on a lot even though they look the same IMO.
That said, I'd love a z4mc too. Too many options
(and I thought the caymanS was slightly gutless too, and got shot down for that, so nice someone else agrees)stuthemong said:
after going from m3 to 2002 K seried 111s I can give you one bit of advice.
Go drive a modern Exige S or elise SC.
They will be a similar cost to the z4mc, and they are utterly, utterly mint.
I took an exige S out recently, and it destroyed the 111s in terms of power (felt similar to a M3, so will be similar to a z4mc in outright pace + both rev to 8.5K happily). The US spec interior was much more refined, and servo assisted brakes and other niceties such as aircon made the exigeS way more comfy and quieter than my 111s.
I'd buy one for sure.
So check out an elise SC/exige S - lotus have moved the game on a lot even though they look the same IMO.
That said, I'd love a z4mc too. Too many options (and I thought the caymanS was slightly gutless too, and got shot down for that, so nice someone else agrees)
Thanks all for your comments so far...re the newer Exige / Elises - I have driven all but the new Elise SC and to be honest whilst they were fantastic on track, on the road in a real world scenario they are not 'that' much different to my lightly tweaked S2 111s - mainly due to them becoming so lardy. I even drove a NA Honda powered Exige on Sat and that didn't appeal to me for what will be primarily road driving with the occasional few track days per year. I'm getting a little tired of all the Elise derivatives and £35k for an Elise SC is too much in my opinion. Even the eagerly anticipated Eagle doesn't sound like it will fill the void at this rate. Trouble is with Lotus, there always seems to be something to upgrade, and once you start you cannot seem to stop - something I want to do away with for at least a couple of years!Go drive a modern Exige S or elise SC.
They will be a similar cost to the z4mc, and they are utterly, utterly mint.
I took an exige S out recently, and it destroyed the 111s in terms of power (felt similar to a M3, so will be similar to a z4mc in outright pace + both rev to 8.5K happily). The US spec interior was much more refined, and servo assisted brakes and other niceties such as aircon made the exigeS way more comfy and quieter than my 111s.
I'd buy one for sure.
So check out an elise SC/exige S - lotus have moved the game on a lot even though they look the same IMO.
That said, I'd love a z4mc too. Too many options
(and I thought the caymanS was slightly gutless too, and got shot down for that, so nice someone else agrees)Perhaps I just need to hurry up and drive the Z4MC and make a decision from there.
Thanks again, any input re maintenance costs would be appreciated. Is fuel comsumption as bad as many articles' stats suggest?!
It's a great Car, i have a sagaris and i still wanted that crazy TVR feel for everyday use and the z4 M Coupe does the trick - it will give you that Big Grin on your face and it's a great car to drive.... i bought it 5 months ago and still loving it mate -go for it! It does enjoy burning fuel....but i didn't buy a car like that to worry about the fuel.. if you drive it hard you looking at 165 miles out of a full tank. If you ease off the Gas you can achieve 250 Miles per tank but that's no fun ...
Edited by tvrvenom on Tuesday 29th April 16:44
Just to answer your servicing queries, just had the oil changed at 11k miles - £209 at a main stealer. A bit steep I know but it's registering not needing another look for 15k miles. So not too bad.
I too looked at the Cayman, although impressive it had no danger associated. That may sound stupid, but it just did what you asked and more. You need to learn the MC and show a bit of respect!!
I too looked at the Cayman, although impressive it had no danger associated. That may sound stupid, but it just did what you asked and more. You need to learn the MC and show a bit of respect!!
RichQuy said:
Thanks all for your comments so far...re the newer Exige / Elises - I have driven all but the new Elise SC and to be honest whilst they were fantastic on track, on the road in a real world scenario they are not 'that' much different to my lightly tweaked S2 111s - mainly due to them becoming so lardy. I even drove a NA Honda powered Exige on Sat and that didn't appeal to me for what will be primarily road driving with the occasional few track days per year. I'm getting a little tired of all the Elise derivatives and £35k for an Elise SC is too much in my opinion. Even the eagerly anticipated Eagle doesn't sound like it will fill the void at this rate. Trouble is with Lotus, there always seems to be something to upgrade, and once you start you cannot seem to stop - something I want to do away with for at least a couple of years!
I moved from 111R to M3 E92.What you mention is EXACTLY what I felt while I had the Lotus and wanted to move on.
The M is by far as exciting (with less feedback at the wheel but more rewarding to drive well due to the amount of power) than the Lotus but mainly is really usable everyday.
Regarding maintenance, it will be less that what I spend to upgrade my 111R and less frequent that the 5000 mls oil change (another way to push you the dealer for another change for the endless track mods).
BTW I choose for the "serenity" contract at 50£ per month all included (5 years/50000 mls). Same price per month than VW touran of my wife....
Go for a drive in the Z4M.
I've had mine for four months now and love it - plus I've only just seen my first other Z4M on the road so it does feel quite exclusive compared to most cars.
There are quicker cars, there are smoother cars and there are (in some people's view but not mine) more striking looking cars, but nothing will make you giggle and feel so childish as a Z4M.
The only real problem with this car is leaving the pedal on the right alone...it's very addictive!
I've had mine for four months now and love it - plus I've only just seen my first other Z4M on the road so it does feel quite exclusive compared to most cars.
There are quicker cars, there are smoother cars and there are (in some people's view but not mine) more striking looking cars, but nothing will make you giggle and feel so childish as a Z4M.
The only real problem with this car is leaving the pedal on the right alone...it's very addictive!
bher said:
RichQuy said:
Thanks all for your comments so far...re the newer Exige / Elises - I have driven all but the new Elise SC and to be honest whilst they were fantastic on track, on the road in a real world scenario they are not 'that' much different to my lightly tweaked S2 111s - mainly due to them becoming so lardy. I even drove a NA Honda powered Exige on Sat and that didn't appeal to me for what will be primarily road driving with the occasional few track days per year. I'm getting a little tired of all the Elise derivatives and £35k for an Elise SC is too much in my opinion. Even the eagerly anticipated Eagle doesn't sound like it will fill the void at this rate. Trouble is with Lotus, there always seems to be something to upgrade, and once you start you cannot seem to stop - something I want to do away with for at least a couple of years!
I moved from 111R to M3 E92.What you mention is EXACTLY what I felt while I had the Lotus and wanted to move on.
The M is by far as exciting (with less feedback at the wheel but more rewarding to drive well due to the amount of power) than the Lotus but mainly is really usable everyday.
Regarding maintenance, it will be less that what I spend to upgrade my 111R and less frequent that the 5000 mls oil change (another way to push you the dealer for another change for the endless track mods).
BTW I choose for the "serenity" contract at 50£ per month all included (5 years/50000 mls). Same price per month than VW touran of my wife....
I thought I recognised your username - I have frequently read with interest your posts over on the Elise forum. If I remember correctly you had an unfortunate accident in your 111R on track, Spa maybe?! I did hear that you'd moved on to the new M3, so your comments are certainly taken on board re the M seeing as you were once a fellow owner.
Thanks again. By serenity pack I presume this is the 5 year parts and labour warranty that is offered over here?
RichQuy said:
what I want is a German TVR!
With the Z4MR...
Plus points over the Tuscan S I had in 2006
You don’t have to wait until the engine gets to 30 degrees before you rev to over 30,000
The tops down in 8 sec’s & you don’t have to remove the rear window.
It has sun visors!
Heated seats Mmmmmm
You don’t have to check the oil & water every day
You can drive it in snow & rain with out scaring yourself to death!
Negative points
I don’t get a hard on when I look at it as I did with the Tuscan & nobody looks at it.
Other than that.. It’s a German TVR
Colin.
what I want is a German TVR!
With the Z4MR...
Plus points over the Tuscan S I had in 2006
You don’t have to wait until the engine gets to 30 degrees before you rev to over 30,000
The tops down in 8 sec’s & you don’t have to remove the rear window.
It has sun visors!
Heated seats Mmmmmm
You don’t have to check the oil & water every day
You can drive it in snow & rain with out scaring yourself to death!
Negative points
I don’t get a hard on when I look at it as I did with the Tuscan & nobody looks at it.
Other than that.. It’s a German TVR
Colin.
RichQuy said:
Hi Benoit
I thought I recognised your username - I have frequently read with interest your posts over on the Elise forum. If I remember correctly you had an unfortunate accident in your 111R on track, Spa maybe?! I did hear that you'd moved on to the new M3, so your comments are certainly taken on board re the M seeing as you were once a fellow owner.
Thanks again. By serenity pack I presume this is the 5 year parts and labour warranty that is offered over here?
Indeed, I did a mistake exiting the raidillon at the end of the warming lap and lost the rear under the rain, totalled the car without a scratch on myself. The elise is very strong as I hit the wall 3 times (front, rear, front while spinning) first time at about 110 kph. I thought I recognised your username - I have frequently read with interest your posts over on the Elise forum. If I remember correctly you had an unfortunate accident in your 111R on track, Spa maybe?! I did hear that you'd moved on to the new M3, so your comments are certainly taken on board re the M seeing as you were once a fellow owner.
Thanks again. By serenity pack I presume this is the 5 year parts and labour warranty that is offered over here?
I choose the M3 for the Engine (superb revving till 8400 rpm (as the 111r), flat power delivery, smooth but not light) and the 4 seats (to use the car more while driving the kids).
The finishing quality is excellent but for this type of car it is not a real sale argument. What you want is driving experience. So I won't bother you about all the gadgets and electronics device except the M button (I don't know if the Z4M get it). It is for me a very interesting feature as you are able to move from a easy to drive car in the city to a rock solid, playfull chassis with instant engine response. It is something you use very often according to your "sport " mood.
To be direct (and I drove again an elise SC after buying the M3), in the BMW you loose the perfect direct connection with the road. The wheel is very thick and servotronic efficient, you know where are the front wheels and the rest but at low speed you do not feel the sport part as you do in the elise. You need to attack more, to push the throttle earlier in the bends to feel the game. In the elise you feel it more frequently and more easily (almost at legal speed I would say). In the other end, the reward in the BMW to play with the rear is huge and very informative. I would lie saying it is easy as I need to improve but it is more funny that in the lotus (in the lotus it come from lift off oversteer and balance and in the bmw more with the power and the balance)
Brakes are good and you feel the braking power but you can forget the very late braking you use to do at track day in the lotus. No match due to the weight.
I don't know the Z4 to compare other aspect as suspension set up seems very different.
Regarding maintenance cost, yes I have the full 5 years warranty and with only 80.000 km (50000 mls) in 5 years it cost me 80 euros per month.
If you have any other question, please feel free to post and email me. I hope that my english is good enough
Thanks for all your further comments.
I'm hoping to take a Z4MC out this Friday - weather permitting.
This brings me on to my next question...the model I'm hoping to see is a 56 plate with very low miles, nice colour combination and a reasonable spec. I say reasonable as it does not have Sat-Nav. The price is a touch under £29k.
I think it makes more sense with these cars to buy slightly used as so much of a saving over list price can be achieved, even when only six months old. However, whilst Sat-Nav is not too important to me, in your opinion(s) would this affect it more than necessary come re-sale in say 3 years time, and does this price give a fair reflection of spec? It does seem to be priced quite a few ££££ cheaper than others that are currently advertised at dealers nationwide.
Additionally, can someone please tell what the button is infront of the gear stick, to the left? Some models I've seen via the web have this, and some don't.
Benoit - thanks for your input. It's very useful to have an unbiased view and I shall let you know how I get on. By the way, your English is just fine, in fact better than many I have come across on here.
Regards
Rich
I'm hoping to take a Z4MC out this Friday - weather permitting.
This brings me on to my next question...the model I'm hoping to see is a 56 plate with very low miles, nice colour combination and a reasonable spec. I say reasonable as it does not have Sat-Nav. The price is a touch under £29k.
I think it makes more sense with these cars to buy slightly used as so much of a saving over list price can be achieved, even when only six months old. However, whilst Sat-Nav is not too important to me, in your opinion(s) would this affect it more than necessary come re-sale in say 3 years time, and does this price give a fair reflection of spec? It does seem to be priced quite a few ££££ cheaper than others that are currently advertised at dealers nationwide.
Additionally, can someone please tell what the button is infront of the gear stick, to the left? Some models I've seen via the web have this, and some don't.
Benoit - thanks for your input. It's very useful to have an unbiased view and I shall let you know how I get on. By the way, your English is just fine, in fact better than many I have come across on here.
Regards
Rich
I have a Z4M R and love it. I've had it on an airfield and it was awesome. The nice thing is exclusive/distinctive, BMW build quality, cabin luxury and with the right options a steal! I like the jeckel/hyde personality; it can be a nice GT cruiser on the M-Way but bury the right foot and it snarls and darts as it shrinks 99% of cars in the rear view mirror!
The Both are lighter than the E46 M3 and slightly quicker - but not as fast as the more powerful CSL. The Z4M C is a little more rigid some say the new E46 CSL.
Buy one - they are the performance bargain of the moment... As new / AUC supply dries up I think the prices will firm up until the new Z4M in 2012 or so.
The Both are lighter than the E46 M3 and slightly quicker - but not as fast as the more powerful CSL. The Z4M C is a little more rigid some say the new E46 CSL.
Buy one - they are the performance bargain of the moment... As new / AUC supply dries up I think the prices will firm up until the new Z4M in 2012 or so.
RichQuy said:
Additionally, can someone please tell what the button is infront of the gear stick, to the left? Some models I've seen via the web have this, and some don't
There is a sport button just ahead of the gear stick; fitted to all but base Z4's (IIRC) it sharpens the throttle response that's all. No power increase :-( The buttons ahead of the ash tray are seat heating (option), stability on/off and tyre pressure warning.
Sat Nav would increase resale but not by much or maybe make it more sellable. General condition / history would be more important.
Personally, I wouldn't bother with the satnav option which for £1700.00 has less functionality than a TomTom for a tenth of the price and I can't see how you'd get your money back.
The famed BMW build quality is missing with these models, probably as a result of being built in the US with some particularly cheap plastics being used in the cabin and if you look behind the scenes (the upholstering behind the seats) you'd be shocked at the level of workmanship. I've had numerous problems with mine, replaced ECU, two lamda sensors and a persistent pulling to the left which has never been cured so I'd urge caution if you're considering one that's near to the warranty end. I had a loner for several weeks with the same tracking (or whatever issue) as mine so if it feels like its pulling to one side - AVOID.
Its the fourth Beemer in six years we've had so the build quality problems are not isolated and it seems to be as if BMW are going down the same route Mercedes did a decade or so ago i.e. relying on past glory rather than building genuinely reliable motors.
Having said that, it will feel positively luxurious after the Elise and although the ride can be harsh the easiest way to sort this out is to replace the frankly shocking Conti's that come as standard and it is as you say, a TVR that works.
The famed BMW build quality is missing with these models, probably as a result of being built in the US with some particularly cheap plastics being used in the cabin and if you look behind the scenes (the upholstering behind the seats) you'd be shocked at the level of workmanship. I've had numerous problems with mine, replaced ECU, two lamda sensors and a persistent pulling to the left which has never been cured so I'd urge caution if you're considering one that's near to the warranty end. I had a loner for several weeks with the same tracking (or whatever issue) as mine so if it feels like its pulling to one side - AVOID.
Its the fourth Beemer in six years we've had so the build quality problems are not isolated and it seems to be as if BMW are going down the same route Mercedes did a decade or so ago i.e. relying on past glory rather than building genuinely reliable motors.
Having said that, it will feel positively luxurious after the Elise and although the ride can be harsh the easiest way to sort this out is to replace the frankly shocking Conti's that come as standard and it is as you say, a TVR that works.
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