which M engine is the ONE??!!??
Discussion
houlbt said:
dan101smith said:
houlbt said:
dan101smith said:
£15k for M3 + £2k for carbon airbox/remap = £17k for CSL sound.
Nearly.
I think it would cost you more than that to do it properly... fitting a proper airbox with free breathing would necessitate different engine management would it not?Nearly.
However, the CSL also had head modifications and a different exhaust.
dan101smith said:
Cheburator mk2 said:
I know because I have seen a bill of sale for one 
What was the damage compared to a standard engine?
I have owned a smattering of BMW's over the years and up until recently have always favoured V8's but the S54 motor in my Z4MC has changed my perception a little and for this reason it gets my vote. I have to say the McClure F1 motor is truly a masterpiece but feel that as I have not had personal experience of it am not qualified to judge but technologically it has to be the top of the crop 
GTWayne said:
I have owned a smattering of BMW's over the years and up until recently have always favoured V8's but the S54 motor in my Z4MC has changed my perception a little and for this reason it gets my vote. I have to say the McClure F1 motor is truly a masterpiece but feel that as I have not had personal experience of it am not qualified to judge but technologically it has to be the top of the crop
I disagree. IIRC it used the same tech as the S50. I remeber reading that the S50 was effectively half a Macca engine but I suppose this was heresay. Therefore the S54 and all lumps thereafter are bound to be more advanced.Welshbeef said:
M5Dave said:
Would have to go with S54 as fitted to the M3 CSL. I saw and heard one of these at the Nurburgring, being accelerated flat out up through the box, then braking hard and throttle bliping as it came back down.
Until that point I'd dismissed the CSL as a waste of time, not worth the extra £20,000 over the standard M3. Hearing that car instantly changed my mind, that noise alone is worth the extra £20,000, I can still hear it in my mind to this day.
£20k for sounding better... come off it wouldnt you rather an M3 E46 & then a Golf GTI most people just could justify such a premium hence they bombed at launch.Until that point I'd dismissed the CSL as a waste of time, not worth the extra £20,000 over the standard M3. Hearing that car instantly changed my mind, that noise alone is worth the extra £20,000, I can still hear it in my mind to this day.
The point I was making, was that it was the sound of the engine that changed my whole perception of the car in an instant. Made me realise there was far more to it than just an M3 with a few of the bits taken out and a fancy set of wheels.
The 3.8 in the E34 M5.
It's the last of the true ///M engines, relying on big capacity, lumpy cams and lots of intake and exhaust work to achieve its power. Yes, things have moved on hugely since then, but technology has taken over, taking away a lot of the engines character.
In my eyes a BMW ///M car should have a straight 6 up front, not a V8 or a V10. In todays world that's just not practical to allow then to keep up with the competition, hence the changes. I'm not denying the modern ///M cars aren't good, they most certainly are, but in my opinion the E34 M5 was the last of the great ///M cars, with a true motorsport engine under the bonnet, hand assembled by a group of BMW's finest geeks to create what is still today an awesome driving machine.
It's the last of the true ///M engines, relying on big capacity, lumpy cams and lots of intake and exhaust work to achieve its power. Yes, things have moved on hugely since then, but technology has taken over, taking away a lot of the engines character.
In my eyes a BMW ///M car should have a straight 6 up front, not a V8 or a V10. In todays world that's just not practical to allow then to keep up with the competition, hence the changes. I'm not denying the modern ///M cars aren't good, they most certainly are, but in my opinion the E34 M5 was the last of the great ///M cars, with a true motorsport engine under the bonnet, hand assembled by a group of BMW's finest geeks to create what is still today an awesome driving machine.
Beedub said:
i dont no what engine this is but its looks pretty awesome!! check out the turbo!
Based on the humble m10 as found in the early E30 318i, this engine was good for around 1400Bhp in qualifying trim and around 1000bhp in race trim... BMW could never determine the exact output as it broke the engine dyno at 1240Bhp!!!
D_T_W said:
The 3.8 in the E34 M5.
It's the last of the true ///M engines, relying on big capacity, lumpy cams and lots of intake and exhaust work to achieve its power. Yes, things have moved on hugely since then, but technology has taken over, taking away a lot of the engines character.
In my eyes a BMW ///M car should have a straight 6 up front, not a V8 or a V10. In todays world that's just not practical to allow then to keep up with the competition, hence the changes. I'm not denying the modern ///M cars aren't good, they most certainly are, but in my opinion the E34 M5 was the last of the great ///M cars, with a true motorsport engine under the bonnet, hand assembled by a group of BMW's finest geeks to create what is still today an awesome driving machine.
It's the last of the true ///M engines, relying on big capacity, lumpy cams and lots of intake and exhaust work to achieve its power. Yes, things have moved on hugely since then, but technology has taken over, taking away a lot of the engines character.
In my eyes a BMW ///M car should have a straight 6 up front, not a V8 or a V10. In todays world that's just not practical to allow then to keep up with the competition, hence the changes. I'm not denying the modern ///M cars aren't good, they most certainly are, but in my opinion the E34 M5 was the last of the great ///M cars, with a true motorsport engine under the bonnet, hand assembled by a group of BMW's finest geeks to create what is still today an awesome driving machine.
The straight 6's have many advantages over subsequent V8-10 M engines. Not least of which is the reduced internal friction/heat loss that allows better fuel economy and a 500 mile range on a quick Euro tour. It is a luxury to be able to drive in Motorsport style past garages for that long. A moden incarnation of the S6 would also be lighter and smoother (fact of physics) than the new V8-10's, and could still post >400HP.
I like the S38 as well, the flagship M-engine at the time. The S70 V12 gained a lot from its internal tech, crank, piston, con-rod, exhaust valves and rose jointed progressive throttle linkage. Block obviously different (alloy) as well as intake/exhaust/fuelling details. VANOS was borrowed from 3 litre M3 with 42 deg instead of 25 deg variation IIRC. EVO 3.2 was a subsequent developement learning the lessons. S 70 was NOT two S6s of anything!
S52/54 is a phenomenal achievement for series production motor, easily surpassing Porsche's achievements for many years (only now routinely 100 BHP/litre and GT3 engine is >£30k). However, S38 had highest specific output of any production motor bar 1.6 Hondas in early 90's, and how many Lambos and Fezza's would see 200k miles? It was hand built, based on legendary M30, saw motorsport service, and provides an awesome driving experience combined with incredible efficiency over a distance. It has miles more character than anything you can find in a new production car, and, crucially, was so controllable that traction control wasn't really needed anyway. It also has a bmep comparable to or better than the newer engines (specific torque and bhp/litre/1000 rpm). It was designed and built by engineers before CAD really took over and IMHO it's resulting 'analogue' feel is far more satisfying as a machine than its 'digitalised' offspring designed by (lets be honest, very skilled) technicians.
Assuming we have to start with the M cars, I'd go with the M88 engine which was in the M1, which was double over head cam, four valve, had Kugelfischer fuel injection and used individual throttle valves, then later slide throttle bodies for the M1 Procar. Truly stunning back then and set the foundation for decades of glorious inline sixes, for which BMW are now famous. The S38 was closely derived from this.
Sorry, but the S54 whilst still a fantastic engine, was a little drawn out for the E46. The output necessary to improve on the S50 causes some reliability issues and by this stage an iron block was getting old hat. This is the main reason why the E92 M3 V8 is lighter, despite having two heads, quad cams etc etc. The S54 was also replaced by a V8 to be competitive in a number of formats.
Sorry, but the S54 whilst still a fantastic engine, was a little drawn out for the E46. The output necessary to improve on the S50 causes some reliability issues and by this stage an iron block was getting old hat. This is the main reason why the E92 M3 V8 is lighter, despite having two heads, quad cams etc etc. The S54 was also replaced by a V8 to be competitive in a number of formats.
Edited by abarber on Monday 18th August 21:00
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