E46 M3 Budget Brake Upgrade....

[NicoG]

With the well-known shortcomings of the standard brakes on these machines, what, if anything, is a worthwhile upgrade without throwing £2K+ at APs?

Any particular rotors and pads which work for light track work?

Thanks in advance - Nick.

[mat205125]

AP conversions tend to be rather expensive when bought as a complete package, however contacting their UK distributor directly for rotors, bells and brackets for "your AP calipers" will be normal price. There are plenty of used AP calipers getting around on the net. EVO/Porsche/TVR/Race Teams etc all buy the same calipers for their cars, with adaptors to fit their application. AP are as close to an industry standard as you can get for pad design, and everyone makes pads to suit your application and budget ..... Not even gonna bother opening the "which pad" recommendation can of worms

[gareth h]

I've just discovered that the APs off my monaro can be adapted to fit my new (to me) M3. It seems to be an anomoly that you can pick up a set of Aps for the Monaro for 1.8k ish yet they are close to 2.7k for the M3. These are the guys to speak to for adapters http://www.bgdevelopments.co.uk/

[rassi]

The BMW Performance parts are apparently a direct bolt-on - can be had for around 1000 euro for the fronts, pads, discs and calipers included, and for the E46 no adapter is needed, whereas it is for an E39: http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0... + http://www.performance-shop-geel.be/Klant_E93_320i...

[Rags]

Tweaked the brakes pn my CSL as I cannot justify AP's

Standard Discs
Pf Pads
Goodridge hoses
Super Blue Fluid

Decent improvement over standard.

[gareth h]

I've found them quite good for stopping at roundabouts as well.

[NicoG]

Sorry Mike, Perhaps I didn't make myself abundantly clear in my OP. The E46 M3 is a single car to have instead of the E30 Sport Evo and the E92 330D. Consequently it's practicality over a supercharged 2-seater Lotus is an issue, on account of it being necessary to transport four people around from time to time. An attribute of both my current cars...

Also the WHOLE POINT of my post was to explore the potential for gaining an improvement in braking performance WITHOUT spending thousands, something you clearly have failed to appreciate...

The clue is in the thread title....

Many thanks indeed to all the helpful PH 'ers wo have replied. I would now appear to have several options open to me....

Edited by NicoG on Monday 9th February 16:39

[Rawhide]

mikez328 said:

Rags said:

Tweaked the brakes pn my CSL as I cannot justify AP's

Standard Discs
Pf Pads
Goodridge hoses
Super Blue Fluid

Decent improvement over standard.

Good man, but why change to Goodridge hoses? What's wrong with the standard BMW fitment?

It's jolly funny to read the threads on this forum & see people spending thousands (if not tens of thousands!!) of pounds on a paltry BMW. If you want a giant killer for the track why not buy a lotus Elise/Exige for £20K & spend less than £5K on a supercharger & all the tyre mods (you aren't interested too much in super brakes unless you are a girl's blouse). - Use the gears to change down - its much cheaper & more fun than the "chicken" pedal.....

Brakes are only for F1 cars, hairpins & when the idiot in front of you f***s up.

If you want to spend thousands of pounds on a road car to put on a track, I would suggest that your priorities are horribly wrong. Spend your money on a nice road car & a 130mph kart or one of the lower formula's & really frighten yourself. You never know, if you are any good you could earn some big dosh........

I'm guessing you don't drive on track much Mike. If you use the engine to brake you will overrev or lock up the rear wheels. My mate did this at the ring recently in his Fiat Coupe having no track experience and his cam belt broke on the way home.

I sold my Elise turbo track day car and have bought an e46 M3 as I got fed up of running two cars and the Elise was not ideal for the commute to work.

I want to do ring trips in my M3 but I'm not keen on warping the disks meaning I have to replace with BMW OEM items which will do it again. M3 brakes are NOT up to the job and it's a false economy to have to replace with standard brakes and pads again.

Does that make me an idiot?

[Rags]

mikez328 said:

Rags said:

Tweaked the brakes pn my CSL as I cannot justify AP's

Standard Discs
Pf Pads
Goodridge hoses
Super Blue Fluid

Decent improvement over standard.

Good man, but why change to Goodridge hoses? What's wrong with the standard BMW fitment?

It's jolly funny to read the threads on this forum & see people spending thousands (if not tens of thousands!!) of pounds on a paltry BMW. If you want a giant killer for the track why not buy a lotus Elise/Exige for £20K & spend less than £5K on a supercharger & all the tyre mods (you aren't interested too much in super brakes unless you are a girl's blouse). - Use the gears to change down - its much cheaper & more fun than the "chicken" pedal.....

Brakes are only for F1 cars, hairpins & when the idiot in front of you f***s up.

If you want to spend thousands of pounds on a road car to put on a track, I would suggest that your priorities are horribly wrong. Spend your money on a nice road car & a 130mph kart or one of the lower formula's & really frighten yourself. You never know, if you are any good you could earn some big dosh........

Goodridge hoses based upon seeing the same setup as I quoted above on a mates car and the stopping power was good. 5 year old brake lines didnt really appeal to me and the Goodridge stainless steel hoses were not exactly expensive.

I do kind of agree with Mike on the daily / track car front as I fell into that trap of converting a road car into more of a track orientated beast. I had a Z3M Coupe and in standard form it was, how do I put it, slightly soggy suspension wise. So I just went full pelt at it - KWv3,s H&R anti roll cars, poly bushed, racelogic, upgraded brakes. But then the car became a pig to drive on anything but flat roads.

It actually made me want to sell it....

[Peter.js]

I think there is quite a difference between full on track mods and a sensible brake upgrade...The std M3 brakes are fine if you are prepared to drive within their limits, but push hard with a lot of high g stops or slows and you can thermally overload them (and no, only a complete fool uses the engine/gearbox in preference to brakes to slow a car). Removing the brake duct cooling blanking covers will give you a little more thermal "headroom" but if you want to track the car then a light brake upgrade may well be worthwhile.

Edited by Peter.js on Tuesday 10th February 11:06

[breezy]

NicoG said:

Sorry Mike, Perhaps I didn't make myself abundantly clear in my OP. The E46 M3 is a single car to have instead of the E30 Sport Evo and the E92 330D. Consequently it's practicality over a supercharged 2-seater Lotus is an issue, on account of it being necessary to transport four people around from time to time. An attribute of both my current cars...

Also the WHOLE POINT of my post was to explore the potential for gaining an improvement in braking performance WITHOUT spending thousands, something you clearly have failed to appreciate...

The clue is in the thread title....

Many thanks indeed to all the helpful PH 'ers wo have replied. I would now appear to have several options open to me....

Edited by NicoG on Monday 9th February 16:39

If you want to do track work, Pagid RS29s with a fluid upgrade are very good.

If you are more interested in on the road manners (e.g. without the squeal that the Pagids will attract), then Ferodo DS2500s are a good compromise.

[Rags]

breezy said:

NicoG said:

Sorry Mike, Perhaps I didn't make myself abundantly clear in my OP. The E46 M3 is a single car to have instead of the E30 Sport Evo and the E92 330D. Consequently it's practicality over a supercharged 2-seater Lotus is an issue, on account of it being necessary to transport four people around from time to time. An attribute of both my current cars...

Also the WHOLE POINT of my post was to explore the potential for gaining an improvement in braking performance WITHOUT spending thousands, something you clearly have failed to appreciate...

The clue is in the thread title....

Many thanks indeed to all the helpful PH 'ers wo have replied. I would now appear to have several options open to me....

Edited by NicoG on Monday 9th February 16:39

If you want to do track work, Pagid RS29s with a fluid upgrade are very good.

If you are more interested in on the road manners (e.g. without the squeal that the Pagids will attract), then Ferodo DS2500s are a good compromise.

I had these on my ZM and found them very hit and miss on the road.
From cold they were dire, and when warm they were much better but the squeal was embarrassing to say the least.....

[Windymiller]

Mmmmmmm....

[NicoG]

Windymiller said:

Mmmmmmm....

I saw those mentioned in a previous reply, the price was surprisingly low for a BMW accessory too! The BMW Performance range is due out soon. The Lightweight wheels look awesome as do THOSE SEATS!!!

The brakes seemed to be about half the price of APs. I cannot justify those...

Edited by NicoG on Tuesday 10th February 16:37

[Peter.js]

NicoG said:

The brakes seemed to be about half the price of APs. I cannot justify those...

£995 from Speed Religion seems like great value...hard to imagine there is a better value brake upgrade for the M3 at less than that.

[NicoG]

Peter.js said:

NicoG said:

The brakes seemed to be about half the price of APs. I cannot justify those...

£995 from Speed Religion seems like great value...hard to imagine there is a better value brake upgrade for the M3 at less than that.

I agree - If one finds ones self needing new disks and pads anyway, it would make a lot of sense to have these fitted.. Having had a sniff around SpeedReligion, I was however unpleasantly surprised at the price of some of the Pagid Pads...!!

Edited by NicoG on Tuesday 10th February 17:47

[shim]

mikez328 said:

Rags said:

mikez328 said:

Good man, but why change to Goodridge hoses? What's wrong with the standard BMW fitment?

It's jolly funny to read the threads on this forum & see people spending thousands (if not tens of thousands!!) of pounds on a paltry BMW. If you want a giant killer for the track why not buy a lotus Elise/Exige for £20K & spend less than £5K on a supercharger & all the tyre mods (you aren't interested too much in super brakes unless you are a girl's blouse). - Use the gears to change down - its much cheaper & more fun than the "chicken" pedal.....

Brakes are only for F1 cars, hairpins & when the idiot in front of you f***s up.

If you want to spend thousands of pounds on a road car to put on a track, I would suggest that your priorities are horribly wrong. Spend your money on a nice road car & a 130mph kart or one of the lower formula's & really frighten yourself. You never know, if you are any good you could earn some big dosh........

Goodridge hoses based upon seeing the same setup as I quoted above on a mates car and the stopping power was good. 5 year old brake lines didnt really appeal to me and the Goodridge stainless steel hoses were not exactly expensive.

I do kind of agree with Mike on the daily / track car front as I fell into that trap of converting a road car into more of a track orientated beast. I had a Z3M Coupe and in standard form it was, how do I put it, slightly soggy suspension wise. So I just went full pelt at it - KWv3,s H&R anti roll cars, poly bushed, racelogic, upgraded brakes. But then the car became a pig to drive on anything but flat roads.

It actually made me want to sell it....

Been there, done it & don't want the "T" Shirt. The standard "M" cars were designed by BMW using the "Ring" as a test track. You just don't mess with these motors - unless you have the money to put a V10 into the chassis - which I do but refuse to even try it. A good driver will take a Z4M Coupe or Roadster around the Ring in less than 9 minutes. To my knowledge this has never been done in a 6 cylinder "M" car.

Just don't mess with tyre/wheel sizes. Much better people than you or I decided on 225/45 18's front & 255/40 18's rear after millions of pounds track testing. 2 years ago I thought I knew better & put my 3.0 SE Z4 onto 235/35 & 265/30 rubber. What a disaster. The car tramlined all over the shop on cambered countryroads - to the point where I sold it. I now have a Z4M Roadster, which is 100% stable on both Motorway & Back roads. Properly egineered & much more comfortable than my previous AM V8 or Lotuse's.

Don't mess. It will end in tears.

Mike

Edited by mikez328 on Tuesday 10th February 11:58

Mike

you may think and indeed you may know a thing or two and have been there but you come across as someone who is ignorant of all the things one learns pretty quickly in a heavy road car prepped for track!

Firstly the braided hoses reduced expansion and hence improve pedal feel and stopping ability

Secondly the E46 brakes were not built for track use but the road with a but of Ring thrown in for good luck. On the Ring the hose, fluid, pad upgrade is essential if you are pushing on and on track uprated callipers and rotors to the front is also essentia; to avoid fade and to reduce stopping distances, ..........................if that is the thing you are trying to do on track rather than freewheeling around then engine braking!

Indeed whilst we are on the sucject who on earth told you to engine brake on track. It is a help to have engine braking to assist overall braking but the right foot is there to be either on the gas or on the brake and nothing else. You must be getting the track mixed up with the trip down to the newsagents to pick up your old holborn.

Finally you are talking bks about the tyres. whilst i am also of the opinin that tyres are chosen by the manufacturers after huge amounts of testing, most of this testing is based on road use and NOT track use. Indeed the CSl which was more Ring or track orientated has Cups at 235/265 widths as it suits the car better on track than 225/255. Most will report after trying othersizes the best rack set up is a wider 245 front to reduce understeer.

Hope the z4m is going well, bet the pads last forever!

[swtmerce]

mikez328 said:

A good driver will take a Z4M Coupe or Roadster around the Ring in less than 9 minutes. To my knowledge this has never been done in a 6 cylinder "M" car.

Can you clarify what you mean by the last sentence please? Are you implying the E36 M3 or E46 M3 can't do the Ring in under 9 minutes?

[darreni]

swtmerce said:

mikez328 said:

A good driver will take a Z4M Coupe or Roadster around the Ring in less than 9 minutes. To my knowledge this has never been done in a 6 cylinder "M" car.

Can you clarify what you mean by the last sentence please? Are you implying the E36 M3 or E46 M3 can't do the Ring in under 9 minutes?

Indeed, the last time i looked a Z4M coupe/roadster was a 6 cylinder car.

[shim]

mikez328 said:

Holy Schmolly!!.... Upset are we? Put 235's on the front & 265's rear & the car WILL tramline. I know because I did it (on 19" AC rims).

I'm sitting here in my cardigan & slippers with my pipe (Cutter's - not Old Holborn!). Perhaps you could also learn to spell! (opinin) is opinion!!!

Mike

tramlining aint gonna be caused by no 235 or 265 tyres but by the geometry set up, indeed as i pointed out BMW supplied the CSL with 235 and 265 tyres and no tramlining, surprisingly.

and yes i am crap at spelling...........but that's better than being a pruck.