Pics of my E93 M3 post KDS wet sand and paint refurbishment

[Mr Whippy]

I was at the BMW garage yesterday, and there were some black BMW's kicking around in the showroom.

Generally the orange peel is quite uniform, but I did see a fair number of almost what I would call 'soft craters' in the paint too. They almost look like water dropped on the finish when it was half dry, then evaporated... just a bit naff to be honest.

Nice engineering, nice drive, in my experience, shame they have let the paint side down a great deal. Oh, and ALL the cars in their bloody showroom were mainly 4 pot diesels... GAH!

[rsstman]

J-P said:

rsstman said:

where could i get a bodyshop for some paintwork that would pay thyat much attention to detail?

Why get respray? Why not ask Kelly to take a look at your car and ask his expert opinion on whether his wet sand and paint refurb process would work on your car? If you absolutely need a respray, Kelly knows somebody who'll do that work for you, then give the car to Kelly to give it the ultimate finish!

Money no object, that's what I'd do with my car!!!

because a panel has been repaired and it has a slight ripple effect down it which i am pretty sure will need re-prepping to get smooth and repainting. some bodyshops just arent up to the job so would love to know of a really good one.

Edited by rsstman on Thursday 14th May 20:40

[N-N]

J-P said:

N-N said:

wtf is orange peel..? i dont want this new M3 now..

If you look at ANY new car closely (apart from an Aston), you'll notice that the paint has a dimpled effect that looks a bit like orange peel - there are some photos of this effect on this post.

Pretty much all new cars have it even Audis, Mercs etc, the difference with the BMW cars is that this effect is pretty pronounced i.e worse than most other manufacturers. To be honest it's the sort of thing that most people don't notice but if you're fussy (like me) then once you have noticed, it just gets on your nerves for all time!

I paid Kelly from KDS to reduce the effect of the orange peel and I'm now over-the-moon with the paint finish on my car but it's not a cheap process. I understand that on a new car BMW will contribute towards having the work done, the problem for you is that you're in Scotland and will have to find somebody who can do this work up there. There are very few people in the country with the necessary skill and dilligence to do this sort of work, so I'd consider leaving your car with Kelly for a couple of weeks down south anyway, if you decide that a) you still want an M3 and b) the orange peel bugs you. If you're not bothered by the paint finish, then just enjoy the car as it is.

I think that my M3 is one of the best cars on the road, subtle, fast, awesome handling. Not as flash as a supercar but able to give most supercars a fright! I totally love it and now that the paint looks right, I think it's the best thing since sliced bread.

Don't let the paintwork put you off the car; the way it looks is important (to me anyway) but the way it drives is far more important and in this respect it's second to none IMHO.

orange peel.. sounds like a dodgy fake tan or cellulite or something! now that i KNOW it will for usre bug me.. as a girl the way the car looks is important to me, i dont want a car with orange peel, sounds awfuL! LOL.

[N-N]

just looked at the photos REALLY hard.. i get it now!

[Webber3]

Mr Whippy said:

Eeek, some terrifying stuff there for new £50,000 cars!

You could spend £80k and still get a car with this terrible paint finish, this is a constant across the range now. I had a grey 330i and have a black 650i cab and both cars have terrible orange peal. It is much more obvious on the 6 series, but it is a black car.

If I ever ordered a new BMW again I'd want it in writing that the car would not have this poor paint finish. Trying to get anything out of the dealer after delivery is futile IMO. I doubt any BMW dealer would or could write that letter, just look at the new cars in the showrooms, the paintwork is shocking.

Edited by Webber3 on Thursday 14th May 21:18

[J-P]

N-N said:

just looked at the photos REALLY hard.. i get it now!

Told you most people wouldn't notice! Once you have though, trust me it'll get on your nerves like nothing else! I seem to spend all my time checking out cars with the orange peel effect and yes it is rather like cellulite for your motor (to me anyway).

[dubbs]

A some of you know, until recently I had an M6 - this car, 87k+ when new (I bought 2nd hand), had awful finish in my opinion.. definitely not what I would have expected but it was similar across any of the M6's I looked at - all had dimpled/ornage peel paint work.

Now the M6 has gone to a new "owner" (courtesy of a trip in a container to the coast of Africa most likely) I have purchased an extremely well looked after E39 540i Sport as a medium term replacemement (going to do other things with the cash then get something more interesting in 2010).

The paint finish on the 540i (year 2000 vintage) is still hardly "peely" at all, certainly nowhere near as bad as the M6... this tells me that the BMW paint finishes have obviously got worse over the last few years rather than it being a long term issue.

[SJobson]

I'm impressed that a Delta HF Turbo could be polished into an Integrale - could you polish my 540i into an M5 please?

[kds keltec]

SJobson said:

I'm impressed that a Delta HF Turbo could be polished into an Integrale - could you polish my 540i into an M5 please?

Quality


I should of explained that i rebuilt the HF into a Integrale look a like ,

My friend bought it of me many years ago and still has it tucked away in his garage .


Here taken from a hard back book in 1996

Edited by kds keltec on Friday 15th May 15:22

[SJobson]

It's probably in better nick than most Integrales these days

I'd love to know what you could do to my 149k mile 540i's paint - all original and not particularly orange-peely compared to new BMWs, but probably a bit too scuffed and stone chipped

[Phantom56]

This is not rocket science. This is what "Professional" detailers do to your car:

They will "wet sand" your car with 1200 grit paper. That removes the laquer & "Orange Peel". Then they will use an Orbital Sander to polish the car. They will then apply some disgusting cheap & nasty Cellulose polish by hand (Eastern European in my experience).

You will have no laquer left & a s**t car to sell on.

Has nobody noticed the sudden wealth of "Hand Car Washes" this year? All owned by Eastern Europeann gents.... Albanians - whilst they send their "wives" & children out to pick-pocket.....

[Westy Pre-Lit]

Unusual for you to be a prick mike and to think your usual posts are full of helpful information and constructive criticism, where you are happy share your wealth of worldly knowledge.

Edited by Westy Pre-Lit on Saturday 16th May 20:38

[PJ S]

Phantom56 said:

This is not rocket science. This is what "Professional" detailers do to your car:

They will "wet sand" your car with 1200 grit paper. That removes the laquer & "Orange Peel". Then they will use an Orbital Sander to polish the car. They will then apply some disgusting cheap & nasty Cellulose polish by hand (Eastern European in my experience).

You will have no laquer left & a s**t car to sell on.

Has nobody noticed the sudden wealth of "Hand Car Washes" this year? All owned by Eastern Europeann gents.... Albanians - whilst they send their "wives" & children out to pick-pocket.....

<zoo tour guide>

Ladies and gentlemen, here we have what is commonly referred to as an abomination, usually as a result of in-breeding or one of Mother Nature's random mistakes.
As you can see, it postulates on subject matter that it lacks the capacity to fully absorb, and......mind your step there son, that's something it threw up last time....

Moving on folks........in this one we can see the lesser spotted crested troll. As you can see there's some similarities, but the previous exhibit is worse in a number of ways.

<zoo tour guide>

[gizlaroc]

Phantom56 said:

This is not rocket science. This is what "Professional" detailers do to your car:

They will "wet sand" your car with 1200 grit paper. That removes the laquer & "Orange Peel". Then they will use an Orbital Sander to polish the car. They will then apply some disgusting cheap & nasty Cellulose polish by hand (Eastern European in my experience).

You will have no laquer left & a s**t car to sell on.

Has nobody noticed the sudden wealth of "Hand Car Washes" this year? All owned by Eastern Europeann gents.... Albanians - whilst they send their "wives" & children out to pick-pocket.....

How did you wife do out on the streets this week Mike??

[Mr Whippy]

Phantom56 said:

This is not rocket science. This is what "Professional" detailers do to your car:

They will "wet sand" your car with 1200 grit paper. That removes the laquer & "Orange Peel". Then they will use an Orbital Sander to polish the car. They will then apply some disgusting cheap & nasty Cellulose polish by hand (Eastern European in my experience).

You will have no laquer left & a s**t car to sell on.

Has nobody noticed the sudden wealth of "Hand Car Washes" this year? All owned by Eastern Europeann gents.... Albanians - whilst they send their "wives" & children out to pick-pocket.....

Clearly they are not "professional" detailers then!?

Honestly, are you mad?

[kds keltec]

Phantom56 said:

They will "wet sand" your car with 1200 grit paper. That removes the laquer & "Orange Peel". Then they will use an Orbital Sander to polish the car.
They will then apply some disgusting cheap & nasty Cellulose polish by hand

Hi mikey where have you been ?

1000 , 1200 grit on the very odd occassion , normally 1500 , 2000 ,2500 and 3000 grit by hand or 1500 , 2000 by hand then 2000 , 4000 by machine (daul action sander) , Mirka abralon sanding pads which hold water , as they are made with an absorbant sponge backing to aid with keeping the cut clean and even !

The paint is then machined polished with the use of a rotory machine not orbital sander using cutting compounds of varing grades to suit hardness of paint and cut needed , (cutting compounds are sometimes termed as a polish) , usually aggressive cut is called compound and fine cut called polish .

Then you apply a Last step projection (LSP), Lsp is split into 2 sections natural wax (called wax) or man made wax generally liquid type called sealent

Just for you mike

Natural wax has a lower durability , but give the best water beeding effect ,
where as sealents are longer lasting but dont give the same water beeding effect more of a slow sheeting effect


Here is a bonnet with the complete process done to just half using natural wax (dodo super natural) 3 layers over 24 hour period

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhmtNq6HdtI

Now if you want to by some of this "They will then apply some disgusting cheap & nasty Cellulose polish"

on sale in all good detailing shops mikey, but hurry






See mikey had some fun with you and also put in a little bit of helpfull information for the normall members on here !

[Westy Pre-Lit]

kds keltec said:

Phantom56 said:

They will "wet sand" your car with 1200 grit paper. That removes the laquer & "Orange Peel". Then they will use an Orbital Sander to polish the car.
They will then apply some disgusting cheap & nasty Cellulose polish by hand

Hi mikey where have you been ?

1000 , 1200 grit on the very odd occassion , normally 1500 , 2000 ,2500 and 3000 grit by hand or 1500 , 2000 by hand then 2000 , 4000 by machine (daul action sander) , Mirka abralon sanding pads which hold water , as they are made with an absorbant sponge backing to aid with keeping the cut clean and even !

The paint is then machined polished with the use of a rotory machine not orbital sander using cutting compounds of varing grades to suit hardness of paint and cut needed , (cutting compounds are sometimes termed as a polish) , usually aggressive cut is called compound and fine cut called polish .

Then you apply a Last step projection (LSP), Lsp is split into 2 sections natural wax (called wax) or man made wax generally liquid type called sealent

Just for you mike

Natural wax has a lower durability , but give the best water beeding effect ,
where as sealents are longer lasting but dont give the same water beeding effect more of a slow sheeting effect


Here is a bonnet with the complete process done to just half using natural wax (dodo super natural) 3 layers over 24 hour period

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhmtNq6HdtI

Now if you want to by some of this "They will then apply some disgusting cheap & nasty Cellulose polish"

on sale in all good detailing shops mikey, but hurry






See mikey had some fun with you and also put in a little bit of helpfull information for the normall members on here !

Booooooooommmtish.

[kds keltec]

Just adding an update on the thread regarding the BMW paint finish problems (orange peel)

Had alot more BMW'S in as you could guess for the same process as JP's E92 M3 , while jp's car had a very healthy amount of clear coat (lacquer) which was also rock hard , the latest bmw's to come through my workshop for the same process have had less clear coat depth with would you believe even worst finish aswell as being far more softer to .

My findings have leaned towards the older E92's have more paint depth from the factory and harder paint which could be due to being outside in the UV light for a few years which will harden up some types of clear coat in time ,
i detailed a 2 day old E93 which was like this on collection from the dealership .







here is a picture of the orange peel finish which is not the worst i seen and the owner decided to not go for the wet sand process



here is a link to the finished item

http://kdskeltec.co.uk/bmw_e93_m3.phtml

Now this car had super soft paint which marked so easy and average paint depth 120 microns total comparied jp's up around 150 microns

Then i had a X5 in for wet sand which had a paint depth rangeing from 100 microns to 160 microns around panels which is crap TBH , this paint was medium hardness and was 6 months old .

here are some photos of before orange peel ,





during starting wet flatting paper was 1500 , 2000 then 3000 grit









after








Last week i had to wet sand a New E93 M3 and by far the worst orange peel to date







This again was very soft and with depth reading far lower than jp's M3 in fact the readings were lower than post wet sand of jp's car before any work was carried out to the paint . the flatting paper started at 2000 then straight to 3000 grit due to how soft the paint was and the fact there was less top coat to play with .

during

new booth for washing away from wind and direct sun light





during wet sanding stage with 2 donor wheels while refurbing the original wheels





Now this car had the softest and lowest paint depth readings of any bmw i have done and its the newest bmw so far , i hope this is not the current trend for all new bmw's .

you maybe able to see in the after photos that not all the orange peel could be removed safely without the removal of too much top coat which is needed to protect the colour coat from premature failure .

After the images in the reflection are not pin sharp due to slight orange peel left












and some from a distance


















I have had many emails over the bmw bad paint finish this year and of course asking how much and how long will it take ?

This very such process is not your everyday detail work and could be comparied to have surgery (which is permanent) for your cars paint work , inturn the ONLY way to properly price and time scale such a process is seeing the vehicle in question all the time bmw have such a varying finish, hardness and paint depth .

HTH Kelly

[mat205125]

Another great set of pictures.

Hypothetical question for all. If you were to arrive to collect your new M3 and it had a hammerite paint finish as bad as that M3 before it was sanded, would you a.) Want to reject the car until it was properly corrected at BMWs expense, & b.) Have any legal rights to be able to reject a poor quality paint finish .... "They're all like that" would no doubt be the dealers reply, however have any precedents been set by cases in the past where people have successfully rejected cars, or been able to charge BMW to have a wet sand correction done like this. I'd be a little concerned in case there were any come back effecting the corrosion warranty, for example.

[Mr Whippy]

Wow, that looks fantastic!

Just looks so slick and wet...