Pics of my E93 M3 post KDS wet sand and paint refurbishment

[ian in lancs]

Can anyone do this in Lancashire?

[kds keltec]

ian in lancs said:

Can anyone do this in Lancashire?

As far as i know i am the only person to do such a process !

Some detailers will wet sand small areas , but not sure about the whole car

I think you will find more old school bodyshop tech guys that would wet sand then standard detailers IMHO

Some bodyshops will still carry out such a process when repainting show cars etc !

The problem with some cars is there is not enough paint scope to do such a process without measuring and assessing the paint depth first , and the fact its a really time consuming process that can only be done indoors in a controlled environment !


This is what can be done on a black


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OJnY_kiJT4

Edited by kds keltec on Friday 29th May 19:06

[ian in lancs]

kds keltec said:

ian in lancs said:

Can anyone do this in Lancashire?

As far as i know i am the only person to do such a process !

Some detailers will wet sand small areas , but not sure about the whole car

I think you will find more old school bodyshop tech guys that would wet sand then standard detailers IMHO

Some bodyshops will still carry out such a process when repainting show cars etc !

The problem with some cars is there is not enough paint scope to do such a process without measuring and assessing the paint depth first , and the fact its a really time consuming process that can only be done indoors in a controlled environment !

I have an '07 Z4M that's got orange peel from the factory and swirling. I'd ask you to do it but you're over 300mls away and to leave it with you is 600mls round trip, no way of getting home or back, plus a couple of days off work to drive down and up. Shame I'm always impressed with your work! Fancy a holiday on the Lancashire coast!!!

[Jason2002]

ian in lancs said:

Can anyone do this in Lancashire?

Kelly has done a couple of my cars for me in the past, I chose the full wetsand option as I am a bit of a car cleaning freak. I am always looking on detailing world at other peoples cars, and I can honestly say I have never seen another company who wetsands vehicles to the extent that Kelly does. I saw one company a while a go on detailing world who lightly sanded a car but not a full wetsand (to remove orange peel). I have added a couple of pictures to show you more of Kelly's wet sanding skills. That picture of the Nissan Nivara is amazing. As the title of this thread says, this is not just a detail it is a total paint refurbishment/rectificaion process taking upto 2 weeks (like for the Audi I had done).

Audi





BMW

Edited by Jason2002 on Thursday 30th April 22:28

[Deniz.S]

That e92 is beautiful, if alpine white wasn't at the forefront of my mind I'd go for it. The man hours/ level of pictures/ info captured blows me away

In regards to your earler point about how easy it is to maintain the car once detailed, it's very easy. It's also an excuse to buy some toys eg pressure washer / foam lance and the cloths / towels too! A 45 minute wash has my car looking as good as the day I drove it back from KDS. Takes very little to maintain and gets you in the habit of washing a car the right way.

P.s. How many more images and prices does Kelly have to pos before mike/banus crawls out?

[yosamite sam]

how much would something like that cost?

[KENZ]

KDS. Your work is amazing. You obviously take imense pride in your work. I never realised you could remove orange peel like that and you obviously have a good eye for detail..

I viewed a number of cars with some good discounts..However I was put off them by the poor paint jobs. Not any more if it can be rectified like that.

[J-P]

yosamite sam said:

how much would something like that cost?

It's not about the cost, it's about the shine!!!

[fastcarl]

stunnig results,

[flimper]

I suppose if you have to ask how much it costs then you can't afford it! Rules me out then

[rev-erend]

yosamite sam said:

how much would something like that cost?

Prices are on his website :

http://www.kdskeltec.co.uk/price_menu.phtml

[J-P]

rev-erend said:

yosamite sam said:

how much would something like that cost?

Prices are on his website :

http://www.kdskeltec.co.uk/price_menu.phtml

Hmmm...I think Kelly's website might be a bit out of date! I paid a lot more that £500 but as it took around 80 hours, I'm not complaining, should have been about £3k really, but I paid nothing like that!

[David111]

Completely stunning.

I have a Z4M that that looks like an orange and I dread to think how good it would look after KDS treated it.....

[Mr Whippy]

So BMW forgot to use cutting compound on the lacquer of this guys BMW after the machines had finished with it

I honestly can't believe BMW let their cars go out without a decent cut back if the machines spary lacquer on like that. Especially as they have all that lacquer on, it'd make sense it was ripe for a good cut back...

Hmmmm, something fishy imho, or BMW are just absolutely and completely lame, which I can't agree with!

Orange peel on bases, fine, I guess, but on lacquer!?

Dave

[J-P]

Mr Whippy said:

So BMW forgot to use cutting compound on the lacquer of this guys BMW after the machines had finished with it

I honestly can't believe BMW let their cars go out without a decent cut back if the machines spary lacquer on like that. Especially as they have all that lacquer on, it'd make sense it was ripe for a good cut back...

Hmmmm, something fishy imho, or BMW are just absolutely and completely lame, which I can't agree with!

Orange peel on bases, fine, I guess, but on lacquer!?

Dave

As far as I can tell all new BMWs look like this - my mate's 335i touring is black and has terrible orange peel! At least as bad as mine was. Went to a BMW showroom about 5 weeks ago and they all had the same problem, shocking really!

[rev-erend]

J-P said:

Mr Whippy said:

So BMW forgot to use cutting compound on the lacquer of this guys BMW after the machines had finished with it

I honestly can't believe BMW let their cars go out without a decent cut back if the machines spary lacquer on like that. Especially as they have all that lacquer on, it'd make sense it was ripe for a good cut back...

Hmmmm, something fishy imho, or BMW are just absolutely and completely lame, which I can't agree with!

Orange peel on bases, fine, I guess, but on lacquer!?

Dave

As far as I can tell all new BMWs look like this - my mate's 335i touring is black and has terrible orange peel! At least as bad as mine was. Went to a BMW showroom about 5 weeks ago and they all had the same problem, shocking really!

Was the same in a Ford show room .. but I do notice that the problem is usually on the verticle panels ... so boots and bonnets which are the most visible are usually not as bad.

I think the issue is that water based paints do not dry as quickly and perhaps the outer layer (lacqueer) is the one that eventually has the orange peel as it takes the moisture from the panels below..

[rev-erend]

J-P said:

rev-erend said:

yosamite sam said:

how much would something like that cost?

Prices are on his website :

http://www.kdskeltec.co.uk/price_menu.phtml

Hmmm...I think Kelly's website might be a bit out of date! I paid a lot more that £500 but as it took around 80 hours, I'm not complaining, should have been about £3k really, but I paid nothing like that!

It does say from ..

[Mr Whippy]

rev-erend said:

J-P said:

Mr Whippy said:

So BMW forgot to use cutting compound on the lacquer of this guys BMW after the machines had finished with it

I honestly can't believe BMW let their cars go out without a decent cut back if the machines spary lacquer on like that. Especially as they have all that lacquer on, it'd make sense it was ripe for a good cut back...

Hmmmm, something fishy imho, or BMW are just absolutely and completely lame, which I can't agree with!

Orange peel on bases, fine, I guess, but on lacquer!?

Dave

As far as I can tell all new BMWs look like this - my mate's 335i touring is black and has terrible orange peel! At least as bad as mine was. Went to a BMW showroom about 5 weeks ago and they all had the same problem, shocking really!

Was the same in a Ford show room .. but I do notice that the problem is usually on the verticle panels ... so boots and bonnets which are the most visible are usually not as bad.

I think the issue is that water based paints do not dry as quickly and perhaps the outer layer (lacqueer) is the one that eventually has the orange peel as it takes the moisture from the panels below..

But still, what is going over with a cutting compound. The work here was ultimately alot of checking/prepping by the person doing the work, BMW could easily add a 30min process to the line for about £100 and have the cars coming out like this...!

That is why I think there is something a bit wrong here... OR, people are seriously mad to be buying cars that are half-finished and look so completely and utterly ste from NEW! Especially £50,000 ones!

Dave

[J-P]

Mr Whippy said:

rev-erend said:

J-P said:

Mr Whippy said:

So BMW forgot to use cutting compound on the lacquer of this guys BMW after the machines had finished with it

I honestly can't believe BMW let their cars go out without a decent cut back if the machines spary lacquer on like that. Especially as they have all that lacquer on, it'd make sense it was ripe for a good cut back...

Hmmmm, something fishy imho, or BMW are just absolutely and completely lame, which I can't agree with!

Orange peel on bases, fine, I guess, but on lacquer!?

Dave

As far as I can tell all new BMWs look like this - my mate's 335i touring is black and has terrible orange peel! At least as bad as mine was. Went to a BMW showroom about 5 weeks ago and they all had the same problem, shocking really!

Was the same in a Ford show room .. but I do notice that the problem is usually on the verticle panels ... so boots and bonnets which are the most visible are usually not as bad.

I think the issue is that water based paints do not dry as quickly and perhaps the outer layer (lacqueer) is the one that eventually has the orange peel as it takes the moisture from the panels below..

But still, what is going over with a cutting compound. The work here was ultimately alot of checking/prepping by the person doing the work, BMW could easily add a 30min process to the line for about £100 and have the cars coming out like this...!

That is why I think there is something a bit wrong here... OR, people are seriously mad to be buying cars that are half-finished and look so completely and utterly ste from NEW! Especially £50,000 ones!

Dave

I've sent a note to BMW (UK) - I'll let you know what they say - if they come back!

[kds keltec]

Mr Whippy said:

So BMW forgot to use cutting compound on the lacquer of this guys BMW after the machines had finished with it

I honestly can't believe BMW let their cars go out without a decent cut back if the machines spary lacquer on like that. Especially as they have all that lacquer on, it'd make sense it was ripe for a good cut back...

Hmmmm, something fishy imho, or BMW are just absolutely and completely lame, which I can't agree with!

Orange peel on bases, fine, I guess, but on lacquer!?

Dave

Not sure what you are going on about , and think you might of got lost somewhere along the paint industry/refinishing process ???

The only car companys that hand work/finish their paint are Aston , Bentley , Rolls etc ! This is why the paint depth on such cars a lower than a new Audi's , Bmw's and others !

The cost would be too great for mass produced cars to all be hand finished like this !

This thou does not mean that BMW should leave there cars like this as all other makes of cars have a better finish straight from the factory using water based / water bourne paints with no hand working needed !

I would say that 80 percent of my bookings are Bmw's for 2 reasons orange peel paint/wet sand on the latest cars and full detail/machine polish of older bmw's due to swirls , scratches and scuffs which are extremely hard to remove by hand or with a dual action buffer that so many hobbie guy's are buying and trying to do themselves!

The fact that bmw's paint of late is so hard is a good thing for ware and tare but a nightmare to be able to really cut back the paint correctly without using a high torque rotary machine !

http://kdskeltec.co.uk/paint_correction.phtml


I do know of customers that have gone and got themselves a Dual Action machine and some samples of polishing heads and cutting compounds , and have managed to remove some damage but not all !

The only way to remove real damage in hard paint like bmw's is to use a very aggressive cutting compound (deminishing type) which will start by cutting aggressive then with working time , friction and heat will break down into a finer and finer cut to remove the swirls as such that you are introducing into the paint from using such product ! This can lead to burn through etc in the wrong hands thou !

Now product like G3 which most bodyshops can be fine in the right hands , but does not break down like 3M and Menzerna so can and will cut and remove more material then 3M products as well as leaving buffer lines etc

To get compound to break down into progressively finer cut you need the correct compound head (foam) matched to the correct compound then will need the correct speed of rotary speed along with correct pressure applied with the correct travel time over the paint area , This is what comes from machine polishing for years and a day to day basis on all types of cars paint .

A jap car's soft paint will be easy to polish back by hand and even easier by machine , but will remove material very fast with the use of a machine combination ,
where as bmw's hard paint will take days to polish back by hand , and really the machine way is the only way for perfect results .

Shown what can be done in the wrong hands using G3



After


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQhhzf5srT4



The latest compounds out now cater for all types of paint from Soft to hard paint , self healing paint(sort of) , ceramic coated laquers , water based and solvent based .


Orange peel is always in the laquer and not the base coat , unless someone has painted over badly not correctly wet flatted paint , so then the base coat (colour coat) is now sitting on top of orange peel !

I keep reading and get told that orange peel is under the paint , in all the layers including an email from the Most expensive and well known detailer in the world saying just that ????


so why have i been wet sanding for over 17 years and managed to remove the orange peel on every car i have wet sanded ?

the orange peel is on the skin/surface in a similar way to the waves on the sea are on the surface and not half way down where its calm and flat !
Does that make some sense ????


Orange peel comes from many varing factors listed below are some

These are just general and not to types of paint


type of paint
quality of paint(cost)
air pressure at gun
distance from panel to spray gun
how heavy paint is being applied
how fast
air temp
panel temp
how thinned the paint is
drying times between coats
baked straight after paint or left to sit for a while before baking

all of the above can be adjusted by the operator/sprayer to get the best possible finish if they wish to do so !




A reply from a well known car company about the poor paint finish

In 2007, the European Union amended the paint and products directive (PPD) to prevent the use of solvents in the paint used on motor vehicles. This means from that point, manufacturers cannot use solvents in their paints and that paints should be water-based. This legislation affects all motor car manufacturers and whilst we are aware of the effect that you are referring to, it is only noticeable under close inspection.
>
> Despite this directive, *** does ensure that all paints are finished to the highest possible quality and while the switch from solvent based paint to water based paints has had an effect on the appearance of our vehicle's this is the standard factory finish.





The hand finishing of show cars all around the world still takes place and can be seen on programs all the time in the USA when building one of muscle/hot rod cars .
They paint extra coats of laquer too make sure there is enough paint for them to remove the orange peel after wards .


Oh and Bmw are lame as you said its not on ! type in google bmw orange peel paint or something like that , you will find alot of forums talking about how bad the paint is on bmw's and they do know and realise, but what can the dealership or saleman really do about it .

Edited by kds keltec on Friday 29th May 19:11