Pics of my E93 M3 post KDS wet sand and paint refurbishment

[kds keltec]

Mr Whippy said:

So BMW forgot to use cutting compound on the lacquer of this guys BMW after the machines had finished with it

I honestly can't believe BMW let their cars go out without a decent cut back if the machines spary lacquer on like that. Especially as they have all that lacquer on, it'd make sense it was ripe for a good cut back...

Hmmmm, something fishy imho, or BMW are just absolutely and completely lame, which I can't agree with!

Orange peel on bases, fine, I guess, but on lacquer!?

Dave

Not sure what you are going on about , and think you might of got lost somewhere along the paint industry/refinishing process ???

The only car companys that hand work/finish their paint are Aston , Bentley , Rolls etc ! This is why the paint depth on such cars a lower than a new Audi's , Bmw's and others !

The cost would be too great for mass produced cars to all be hand finished like this !

This thou does not mean that BMW should leave there cars like this as all other makes of cars have a better finish straight from the factory using water based / water bourne paints with no hand working needed !

I would say that 80 percent of my bookings are Bmw's for 2 reasons orange peel paint/wet sand on the latest cars and full detail/machine polish of older bmw's due to swirls , scratches and scuffs which are extremely hard to remove by hand or with a dual action buffer that so many hobbie guy's are buying and trying to do themselves!

The fact that bmw's paint of late is so hard is a good thing for ware and tare but a nightmare to be able to really cut back the paint correctly without using a high torque rotary machine !

http://kdskeltec.co.uk/paint_correction.phtml


I do know of customers that have gone and got themselves a Dual Action machine and some samples of polishing heads and cutting compounds , and have managed to remove some damage but not all !

The only way to remove real damage in hard paint like bmw's is to use a very aggressive cutting compound (deminishing type) which will start by cutting aggressive then with working time , friction and heat will break down into a finer and finer cut to remove the swirls as such that you are introducing into the paint from using such product ! This can lead to burn through etc in the wrong hands thou !

Now product like G3 which most bodyshops can be fine in the right hands , but does not break down like 3M and Menzerna so can and will cut and remove more material then 3M products as well as leaving buffer lines etc

To get compound to break down into progressively finer cut you need the correct compound head (foam) matched to the correct compound then will need the correct speed of rotary speed along with correct pressure applied with the correct travel time over the paint area , This is what comes from machine polishing for years and a day to day basis on all types of cars paint .

A jap car's soft paint will be easy to polish back by hand and even easier by machine , but will remove material very fast with the use of a machine combination ,
where as bmw's hard paint will take days to polish back by hand , and really the machine way is the only way for perfect results .

Shown what can be done in the wrong hands using G3



After


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQhhzf5srT4



The latest compounds out now cater for all types of paint from Soft to hard paint , self healing paint(sort of) , ceramic coated laquers , water based and solvent based .


Orange peel is always in the laquer and not the base coat , unless someone has painted over badly not correctly wet flatted paint , so then the base coat (colour coat) is now sitting on top of orange peel !

I keep reading and get told that orange peel is under the paint , in all the layers including an email from the Most expensive and well known detailer in the world saying just that ????


so why have i been wet sanding for over 17 years and managed to remove the orange peel on every car i have wet sanded ?

the orange peel is on the skin/surface in a similar way to the waves on the sea are on the surface and not half way down where its calm and flat !
Does that make some sense ????


Orange peel comes from many varing factors listed below are some

These are just general and not to types of paint


type of paint
quality of paint(cost)
air pressure at gun
distance from panel to spray gun
how heavy paint is being applied
how fast
air temp
panel temp
how thinned the paint is
drying times between coats
baked straight after paint or left to sit for a while before baking

all of the above can be adjusted by the operator/sprayer to get the best possible finish if they wish to do so !




A reply from a well known car company about the poor paint finish

In 2007, the European Union amended the paint and products directive (PPD) to prevent the use of solvents in the paint used on motor vehicles. This means from that point, manufacturers cannot use solvents in their paints and that paints should be water-based. This legislation affects all motor car manufacturers and whilst we are aware of the effect that you are referring to, it is only noticeable under close inspection.
>
> Despite this directive, *** does ensure that all paints are finished to the highest possible quality and while the switch from solvent based paint to water based paints has had an effect on the appearance of our vehicle's this is the standard factory finish.





The hand finishing of show cars all around the world still takes place and can be seen on programs all the time in the USA when building one of muscle/hot rod cars .
They paint extra coats of laquer too make sure there is enough paint for them to remove the orange peel after wards .


Oh and Bmw are lame as you said its not on ! type in google bmw orange peel paint or something like that , you will find alot of forums talking about how bad the paint is on bmw's and they do know and realise, but what can the dealership or saleman really do about it .

Edited by kds keltec on Friday 29th May 19:11

[kds keltec]

Mr Whippy said:

So BMW forgot to use cutting compound on the lacquer of this guys BMW after the machines had finished with it

I honestly can't believe BMW let their cars go out without a decent cut back if the machines spary lacquer on like that. Especially as they have all that lacquer on, it'd make sense it was ripe for a good cut back...

Hmmmm, something fishy imho, or BMW are just absolutely and completely lame, which I can't agree with!

Orange peel on bases, fine, I guess, but on lacquer!?

Dave

Not sure what you are going on about , and think you might of got lost somewhere along the paint industry/refinishing process ???

The only car companys that hand work/finish their paint are Aston , Bentley , Rolls etc ! This is why the paint depth on such cars a lower than a new Audi's , Bmw's and others !

The cost would be too great for mass produced cars to all be hand finished like this !

This thou does not mean that BMW should leave there cars like this as all other makes of cars have a better finish straight from the factory using water based / water bourne paints with no hand working needed !

I would say that 80 percent of my bookings are Bmw's for 2 reasons orange peel paint/wet sand on the latest cars and full detail/machine polish of older bmw's due to swirls , scratches and scuffs which are extremely hard to remove by hand or with a dual action buffer that so many hobbie guy's are buying and trying to do themselves!

The fact that bmw's paint of late is so hard is a good thing for ware and tare but a nightmare to be able to really cut back the paint correctly without using a high torque rotary machine !

http://kdskeltec.co.uk/paint_correction.phtml


I do know of customers that have gone and got themselves a Dual Action machine and some samples of polishing heads and cutting compounds , and have managed to remove some damage but not all !

The only way to remove real damage in hard paint like bmw's is to use a very aggressive cutting compound (deminishing type) which will start by cutting aggressive then with working time , friction and heat will break down into a finer and finer cut to remove the swirls as such that you are introducing into the paint from using such product ! This can lead to burn through etc in the wrong hands thou !

Now product like G3 which most bodyshops can be fine in the right hands , but does not break down like 3M and Menzerna so can and will cut and remove more material then 3M products as well as leaving buffer lines etc

To get compound to break down into progressively finer cut you need the correct compound head (foam) matched to the correct compound then will need the correct speed of rotary speed along with correct pressure applied with the correct travel time over the paint area , This is what comes from machine polishing for years and a day to day basis on all types of cars paint .

A jap car's soft paint will be easy to polish back by hand and even easier by machine , but will remove material very fast with the use of a machine combination ,
where as bmw's hard paint will take days to polish back by hand , and really the machine way is the only way for perfect results .

Shown what can be done in the wrong hands using G3



After

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQhhzf5srT4




The latest compounds out now cater for all types of paint from Soft to hard paint , self healing paint(sort of) , ceramic coated laquers , water based and solvent based .


Orange peel is always in the laquer and not the base coat , unless someone has painted over badly not correctly wet flatted paint , so then the base coat (colour coat) is now sitting on top of orange peel !

I keep reading and get told that orange peel is under the paint , in all the layers including an email from the Most expensive and well known detailer in the world saying just that ????


so why have i been wet sanding for over 17 years and managed to remove the orange peel on every car i have wet sanded ?

the orange peel is on the skin/surface in a similar way to the waves on the sea are on the surface and not half way down where its calm and flat !
Does that make some sense ????


Orange peel comes from many varing factors listed below are some

These are just general and not to types of paint


type of paint
quality of paint(cost)
air pressure at gun
distance from panel to spray gun
how heavy paint is being applied
how fast
air temp
panel temp
how thinned the paint is
drying times between coats
baked straight after paint or left to sit for a while before baking

all of the above can be adjusted by the operator/sprayer to get the best possible finish if they wish to do so !




A reply from a well known car company about the poor paint finish

In 2007, the European Union amended the paint and products directive (PPD) to prevent the use of solvents in the paint used on motor vehicles. This means from that point, manufacturers cannot use solvents in their paints and that paints should be water-based. This legislation affects all motor car manufacturers and whilst we are aware of the effect that you are referring to, it is only noticeable under close inspection.
>
> Despite this directive, *** does ensure that all paints are finished to the highest possible quality and while the switch from solvent based paint to water based paints has had an effect on the appearance of our vehicle's this is the standard factory finish.





The hand finishing of show cars all around the world still takes place and can be seen on programs all the time in the USA when building one of muscle/hot rod cars .
They paint extra coats of laquer too make sure there is enough paint for them to remove the orange peel after wards .


Oh and Bmw are lame as you said its not on ! type in google bmw orange peel paint or something like that , you will find alot of forums talking about how bad the paint is on bmw's and they do know and realise, but what can the dealership or saleman really do about it .

Edited by kds keltec on Friday 29th May 19:11

[kds keltec]

Mr Whippy said:

But still, what is going over with a cutting compound. The work here was ultimately alot of checking/prepping by the person doing the work, BMW could easily add a 30min process to the line for about £100 and have the cars coming out like this...!

That is why I think there is something a bit wrong here... OR, people are seriously mad to be buying cars that are half-finished and look so completely and utterly ste from NEW! Especially £50,000 ones!

Dave

Right for anyone that has followed my posts over the last year would agree with me and saying that i am very patientce and pollite even to Mikez328 oh sorry Banus333

But comments like that make my blood boil , you best come and work for me then if it takes 30 minutes process and £100

you must be so sort of Cck to think that and shows you really have no idea of time scale , skill , risk factor and the fact that you can't even read the thread properly to see that it is wet sanding the paint that removes the orange peel then machine polishing , and not running some cutting compound over the paint to remove the orange peel !


If it takes 60 hours of wet sanding using hand and machine method starting with 1200 grit paper progressing to 4000 grit, how is compound going the touch the orange on its own !



Had this car in a few weeks back for an inspection its only 2 days old and stright from the dealership !

This is what 30 minutes quick buff gives you








Now this car will be having a detail process only ((not wet sand) to remove the damage inflicted by the dealership , but this will still take between 8-12 hours to fully remove the damage with the bare minimum material removed at the same time .

[Mr Whippy]

kds keltec said:

Mr Whippy said:

So BMW forgot to use cutting compound on the lacquer of this guys BMW after the machines had finished with it

I honestly can't believe BMW let their cars go out without a decent cut back if the machines spary lacquer on like that. Especially as they have all that lacquer on, it'd make sense it was ripe for a good cut back...

Hmmmm, something fishy imho, or BMW are just absolutely and completely lame, which I can't agree with!

Orange peel on bases, fine, I guess, but on lacquer!?

Dave

Not sure what you are going on about , and think you might of got lost somewhere along the paint industry/refinishing process ???

The only car companys that hand work/finish their paint are Aston , Bentley , Rolls etc ! This is why the paint depth on such cars a lower than a new Audi's , Bmw's and others !

The cost would be too great for mass produced cars to all be hand finished like this !

This thou does not mean that BMW should leave there cars like this as all other makes of cars have a better finish straight from the factory using water based / water bourne paints with no hand working needed !

I would say that 80 percent of my bookings are Bmw's for 2 reasons orange peel paint/wet sand on the latest cars and full detail/machine polish of older bmw's due to swirls , scratches and scuffs which are extremely hard to remove by hand or with a dual action buffer that so many hobbie guy's are buying and trying to do themselves!

The fact that bmw's paint of late is so hard is a good thing for ware and tare but a nightmare to be able to really cut back the paint correctly without using a high torque rotary machine !

http://kdskeltec.co.uk/paint_correction.phtml


I do know of customers that have gone and got themselves a Dual Action machine and some samples of polishing heads and cutting compounds , and have managed to remove some damage but not all !

The only way to remove real damage in hard paint like bmw's is to use a very aggressive cutting compound (deminishing type) which will start by cutting aggressive then with working time , friction and heat will break down into a finer and finer cut to remove the swirls as such that you are introducing into the paint from using such product ! This can lead to burn through etc in the wrong hands thou !

Now product like G3 which most bodyshops can be fine in the right hands , but does not break down like 3M and Menzerna so can and will cut and remove more material then 3M products as well as leaving buffer lines etc

To get compound to break down into progressively finer cut you need the correct compound head (foam) matched to the correct compound then will need the correct speed of rotary speed along with correct pressure applied with the correct travel time over the paint area , This is what comes from machine polishing for years and a day to day basis on all types of cars paint .

A jap car's soft paint will be easy to polish back by hand and even easier by machine , but will remove material very fast with the use of a machine combination ,
where as bmw's hard paint will take days to polish back by hand , and really the machine way is the only way for perfect results .

Shown what can be done in the wrong hands using G3




The latest compounds out now cater for all types of paint from Soft to hard paint , self healing paint(sort of) , ceramic coated laquers , water based and solvent based .


Orange peel is always in the laquer and not the base coat , unless someone has painted over badly not correctly wet flatted paint , so then the base coat (colour coat) is now sitting on top of orange peel !

I keep reading and get told that orange peel is under the paint , in all the layers including an email from the Most expensive and well known detailer in the world saying just that ????


so why have i been wet sanding for over 17 years and managed to remove the orange peel on every car i have wet sanded ?

the orange peel is on the skin/surface in a similar way to the waves on the sea are on the surface and not half way down where its calm and flat !
Does that make some sense ????


Orange peel comes from many varing factors listed below are some

These are just general and not to types of paint


type of paint
quality of paint(cost)
air pressure at gun
distance from panel to spray gun
how heavy paint is being applied
how fast
air temp
panel temp
how thinned the paint is
drying times between coats
baked straight after paint or left to sit for a while before baking

all of the above can be adjusted by the operator/sprayer to get the best possible finish if they wish to do so !




A reply from a well known car company about the poor paint finish

In 2007, the European Union amended the paint and products directive (PPD) to prevent the use of solvents in the paint used on motor vehicles. This means from that point, manufacturers cannot use solvents in their paints and that paints should be water-based. This legislation affects all motor car manufacturers and whilst we are aware of the effect that you are referring to, it is only noticeable under close inspection.
>
> Despite this directive, *** does ensure that all paints are finished to the highest possible quality and while the switch from solvent based paint to water based paints has had an effect on the appearance of our vehicle's this is the standard factory finish.





The hand finishing of show cars all around the world still takes place and can be seen on programs all the time in the USA when building one of muscle/hot rod cars .
They paint extra coats of laquer too make sure there is enough paint for them to remove the orange peel after wards .


Oh and Bmw are lame as you said its not on ! type in google bmw orange peel paint or something like that , you will find alot of forums talking about how bad the paint is on bmw's and they do know and realise, but what can the dealership or saleman really do about it .

It is pretty poor.

I've been getting into wet painting, and imho, rubbing down by hand after the clear is an essential step.

Forget Aston/Bentley etc only doing this, it's cheap, quick and easy to do on a car that is stripped down/just painted (as these cars are on the production line after leaving the oven!)...
Remember, you spent a long time because you have to measure the paint to be 100% safe, and every car is an unknown quantity, you have large overheads etc, so the cost is high.

ANY paintshop out there (decent) will cut back the laquer by hand or machine after doing the work to really get it smooth, and it's a tiny 'last stage' part of their work... on a production line it would add as I said, maybe £100 tops to the cost of a car, and go from looking terrible to fantastic!


So yes, BMW are completely lame for this, but I do question buyers who sign these cars over to themselves when they look like that, and I do question how hard it actually is. Your work, yes, very tough, but on a production line with a prepped process on known quantity cars, no masking, 100% clean from the oven... a very easy last step!

After looking closely at 2001 E39 M5 in black metallic, the laquer was like glass, and the base was pretty damn smooth, my 2004 Z4 looks nice, a bit more bobbly base, but the laquer is like glass. Even 2007 E60 5 series looked nice on the laquer, just the base was quite badly bobbly... but THIS M3, if the laquer is really like that, I'd honestly not accept it from BMW.

I'd like to see some fixed camera/conditions before/after shots (not that I don't believe it), but I simply cannot believe laquer looks like that from new. Arghhh, I just can't believe it
The owner must also be pretty bonkers to drive it away from BMW looking so st!

Dave

[J-P]

[/quote]

laquer looks like that from new. Arghhh, I just can't believe it
The owner must also be pretty bonkers to drive it away from BMW looking so st!

Dave
[/quote]

Picked it up in the dark - bought it for the way it drives not it's paint. It was only after seeing it in the sun a few weeks after I bought it that I noticed how utterly rubbish the finish was - I've moaned to BMW though, still waiting to see what happens!

[Mr Whippy]

kds keltec said:

But comments like that make my blood boil , you best come and work for me then if it takes 30 minutes process and £100

you must be so sort of Cck to think that and shows you really have no idea of time scale , skill , risk factor and the fact that you can't even read the thread properly to see that it is wet sanding the paint that removes the orange peel then machine polishing , and not running some cutting compound over the paint to remove the orange peel !

Had you read my post, you'd realise I make concessions for your process.

If you had 100 cars a day coming through a machine with the same laquer levels on it, totally clean, not needing masking, measuring, paint depth checking, parts removing etc, on EVERY single model, + your overheads etc, then the process is actually really easy to replicate.

There is a HUGE difference between getting this right on the paint line, and correcting it on a finished car that has been exposed to the elements already.

PS, Glynwaxmaster does wet sanding doesn't he, where needed?

PSPS, don't mean to cause offence to anyone here, just so bloody amazed at how ste that is. I'd have taken it to BMW before paying to have it corrected. Maybe then they'd put a bit more effort into their £50,000+ cars!

Dave

Edited by Mr Whippy on Friday 1st May 16:25

[kds keltec]

Mr Whippy said:

It is pretty poor.

I've been getting into wet painting, and imho, rubbing down by hand after the clear is an essential step.

Forget Aston/Bentley etc only doing this, it's cheap, quick and easy to do on a car that is stripped down/just painted (as these cars are on the production line after leaving the oven!)...
Remember, you spent a long time because you have to measure the paint to be 100% safe, and every car is an unknown quantity, you have large overheads etc, so the cost is high.

ANY paintshop out there (decent) will cut back the laquer by hand or machine after doing the work to really get it smooth, and it's a tiny 'last stage' part of their work... on a production line it would add as I said, maybe £100 tops to the cost of a car, and go from looking terrible to fantastic!


So yes, BMW are completely lame for this, but I do question buyers who sign these cars over to themselves when they look like that, and I do question how hard it actually is. Your work, yes, very tough, but on a production line with a prepped process on known quantity cars, no masking, 100% clean from the oven... a very easy last step!

After looking closely at 2001 E39 M5 in black metallic, the laquer was like glass, and the base was pretty damn smooth, my 2004 Z4 looks nice, a bit more bobbly base, but the laquer is like glass. Even 2007 E60 5 series looked nice on the laquer, just the base was quite badly bobbly... but THIS M3, if the laquer is really like that, I'd honestly not accept it from BMW.

I'd like to see some fixed camera/conditions before/after shots (not that I don't believe it), but I simply cannot believe laquer looks like that from new. Arghhh, I just can't believe it
The owner must also be pretty bonkers to drive it away from BMW looking so st!

Dave

You clearly still dont have a clue, best thing is to come to the workshop for yourself and get some free training then ! oh train me

I have nothing to prove to you at all

Here's a ford truck

before



after

[kds keltec]

As you said about E39

here are some after pics

passenger side



Zoomed in



drivers side





zoomed in

[Mr Whippy]

kds keltec said:

Mr Whippy said:

It is pretty poor.

I've been getting into wet painting, and imho, rubbing down by hand after the clear is an essential step.

Forget Aston/Bentley etc only doing this, it's cheap, quick and easy to do on a car that is stripped down/just painted (as these cars are on the production line after leaving the oven!)...
Remember, you spent a long time because you have to measure the paint to be 100% safe, and every car is an unknown quantity, you have large overheads etc, so the cost is high.

ANY paintshop out there (decent) will cut back the laquer by hand or machine after doing the work to really get it smooth, and it's a tiny 'last stage' part of their work... on a production line it would add as I said, maybe £100 tops to the cost of a car, and go from looking terrible to fantastic!


So yes, BMW are completely lame for this, but I do question buyers who sign these cars over to themselves when they look like that, and I do question how hard it actually is. Your work, yes, very tough, but on a production line with a prepped process on known quantity cars, no masking, 100% clean from the oven... a very easy last step!

After looking closely at 2001 E39 M5 in black metallic, the laquer was like glass, and the base was pretty damn smooth, my 2004 Z4 looks nice, a bit more bobbly base, but the laquer is like glass. Even 2007 E60 5 series looked nice on the laquer, just the base was quite badly bobbly... but THIS M3, if the laquer is really like that, I'd honestly not accept it from BMW.

I'd like to see some fixed camera/conditions before/after shots (not that I don't believe it), but I simply cannot believe laquer looks like that from new. Arghhh, I just can't believe it
The owner must also be pretty bonkers to drive it away from BMW looking so st!

Dave

You clearly still dont have a clue, best thing is to come to the workshop for yourself and get some free training then ! oh train me

I have nothing to prove to you at all

Here's a ford truck

before



after

So you flattened the lacquer

I'd have to look in person to see what I thought. All these pictures are at nice deep angles showing amazing reflections. What is it like straight on with a perpendicular point light in a dark garage? I'm sure there will be some orange peel in the base still... if it matters or not is another thing I suppose.
I don't doubt you can improve the laquer where it's bad.


I'm surprised you have such a problem with the manufacturers process if they are otherwise getting EVERYTHING else perfect (ie, flat), without any manual interference during the work (not so sure), except the last stage which they get lumpy, so you can correct it for people as a business model

I'm quite certain that the primer/base are not flattened during the painting process, and as such WILL have some degree of 'orange peel' that you can't correct, again, if this matters or not is another thing. Most body repairers will flatten their base before the final coat/flash off, so it's flat but textured.


Not dissing flattening lacquer then, but a, I don't think that should be there to start with to need correcting, but a noble effort to resolve it for people
though, b, I think you believe too much in all defects being lacquer borne. If the base was put on crap, no amount of lacquer correction will resolve it
This car clearly needed your attention (new M3), but I've seen cars where the base is clearly the problem, and the laquer has a sharp edge to it (ie, a horizon line at sunset tracks nice and straight in the laquer at a deep angle (good way to spot dinks), but as you get to look more straight on and see the nasty lumpy base, it's less nice )

It seems modern car finishes have reversed (since going waterbourne). Bases seem to be getting better and better, but the laquers seem to be getting worse. Good because they can be corrected, but bad because it SHOULD be being done for you from new!

Dave

Edited by Mr Whippy on Friday 1st May 16:51

[f13ldy]

Having my own Dual Action Polisher and as a novice at detailing.

I can confirm that 30 minutes might be just enough to finish masking a car.

My own car took around 16 hours of my time and it still isn't perfect and didn't include wet sanding. The best pictures I got were:




Nothing close to what you get from KDS.

I can also confirm that I would happily pay for someone to get the paint perfect. I wouldn't want to do it myself based on time consumption and the possibility of it going spectacularly wrong.

[Westy Pre-Lit]

Mr Whippy said:

I've been getting into wet painting

KDS said:

i been wet sanding for over 17 years

[Mr Whippy]

Westy Pre-Lit said:

Mr Whippy said:

I've been getting into wet painting

KDS said:

i been wet sanding for over 17 years

Oh go on then, I've been wet sanding for 17 years...

I wet sanded my Tornado IDS to get rid of the brush lines on the 1:72 scale model I did

Go look at cars pre-laquer, you had to flatten the paint on them, because of defects. Orange peel is a description of topography, and is evident from bad 'dodgy mcDodgy assured repairers' base coats, to factory finished clearcoats...
It's what happens when you spray paints, from powder coated alloy wheels and blotchy bases (yes, seen it ON the base, before the clear goes on), to wet paints!

Dave

[kds keltec]

I will say this

The time scale to wet flat a panel or car will depend on lots of factors !

Size of car
how heavy the orange peel is
and the worst one is how hard the laquer is
shape of car , crease lines , moulding etc

I wet flatted and machined polished a freshly painted rear bumper on a black RS4 3 weeks ago and took 70 minutes start to finish !

The reason for this quick time was

Bumper still of car , painted 2 days before so fresh very soft paint compared to bmw's latest hard paint , and the main thing extra top coat or laquer was applied give me the convidence to wet flat knowning there will be no problems with such a process !


The Bmw in the thread was rock hard on the top surfaces , slightly softer on the sides , and the plastics being more of a medium hardness !


The bonnet took 8 hours alone to fully wet sand in all grades where it was so hard ! I ended up using more flatting material for the bonnet than i would for a whole freshly painted car !

I had a paint rep , owner of lepsons alloy wheel company (who paints , make paint through his company and supplies paint ) and a local bodyshop (who i finish his work for him) watch at different times to show how 1500 grit wet and dry did not even touch the paint surface because of the hardness , and than even 1000 grit on a mirka sanding could only cut the size of your hand and then was blunt !

The cheaper end of paint materials for bodyshops and smart repair guys are normally very soft and designed to be easy to work with and polish up very quickly as time is money .

Years ago i was using spies hecker , ici , glasurit and sometime Maxmayer and lechler !

Now a £400 5 litre tin of top coat from the range spies hecker paint range behaved completely different to a cheap tin of maxmayer paint .

The cheap paint would flat and polish in much quicker and easier than the expensive high solid spies hecker paint , but the spies hecker paint was much nicer to use with a better finish straight from the gun .

wet flatting a small area to remove a scratch is completely different ball game to removing the orange peel on an entire car , the time scale alone will double between very soft to very hard paint !

Polish brass , copper and takes minutes as its soft , polish stainless steel and will take hours because its so hard !

so to price and give a time scale of wet sanding is near on impossible unless the car is completely repaint free (unlikely for most cars after a few years old) and that you have done the exact same car and age !

The only way is to view the car and do i some tests areas , so many people think wet sanding / detailing can and will remove stonechips , dents and rust , the amount of cars i see that need painting not detailing is silly

The 320 m sport diesel on this thread same year build date and was miles softer than the M3 of the same age but a year apart , 320 3 days old M3 15 months old , the m3 had around 30 microns of laquer more than the 320 aswell as the orange peel being much heavier .

This could be harder due to different paint or the fact the M3 has hardened up over the 15 months it has had time to fully cure , or a combination of both !

I would say that every detail i have done on a bmw the repainted area (normally front for stone chips) is always far softer than the original paint .

[Mr Whippy]

I think your work is amazing (considering how the BMW started), and more so because you are doing it post-paintshop basically.

I think as BMW can clearly see their cars are rocking off the line so bad looking, they could easily solve this with a last process on their clear.

If you didn't have premises to pay for, materials to pay for, and no prep work, just get straight onto known thick laquer on cars, I bet you could do them pretty cheaply as man-hour costs are concerned.

That is my point, even if BMW did 50% of what you are doing, it'd be a relatively cheap and easy process on their line, and look as good as most people would probably want.

Not dissing your work as a post-delivery technique it is the only way to do it, but during manufacture it would be tons easier/cheaper to do and make such a huge difference! My conclusion, BMW are gmad!

Dave

[kds keltec]

Mr Whippy said:

Westy Pre-Lit said:

Mr Whippy said:

I've been getting into wet painting

KDS said:

i been wet sanding for over 17 years

Oh go on then, I've been wet sanding for 17 years...

I wet sanded my Tornado IDS to get rid of the brush lines on the 1:72 scale model I did

Go look at cars pre-laquer, you had to flatten the paint on them, because of defects. Orange peel is a description of topography, and is evident from bad 'dodgy mcDodgy assured repairers' base coats, to factory finished clearcoats...
It's what happens when you spray paints, from powder coated alloy wheels and blotchy bases (yes, seen it ON the base, before the clear goes on), to wet paints!

Dave

per-laquer cars are single stage paint process and the top coat is the colour coat in many layers (which can be flatted down between coats and on the final coat) this is the process that Rolls Royce did when painting in muliple layers to get the best possible finish when using single stage solid colours no laquer correct, so there is no base colour coat only primers , as i said the orange peel is on the top of the paint even if its single stage paint !

Thats no different to painting your bldy front door in a wood gloss paint and flatting the coats down to remove the brush marks and get a better flat finish , that is still not base coat as car paint , you could put 1 coat on or 10 they are all still top coats as you could stop at any number of coats and the finish would be shiney and not purous

Base coats dry matt and are porous ready for the next coat (top coat) to key to the base coat

powder coats again are not base coats but top coats pretty much anything that is sprayed and dries with a shine is top coat and that is where the orange peel will be !

How comes i see hundreds of wheels being painted every week in BASE coat powder primer that flows completely flat and fills in the casting marks , then painted in all different colours water based and solvent before the top coat of laquer and they all lay flat and smooth its only the laquer in its design that has the orange peel in the skin ????

[Westy Pre-Lit]

Mr Whippy said:

If you didn't have premises to pay for, materials to pay for, and no prep work, just get straight onto known thick laquer on cars, I bet you could do them pretty cheaply as man-hour costs are concerned.

I'd suggest that goes for any company. If i didn't have a ton of overheads to pay for i'd be able to fit alarms for £200.

If you actually read the thread then you will also notice you need to be in a clean as possible environment to carry out this type of work.

[Mr Whippy]

Westy Pre-Lit said:

Mr Whippy said:

If you didn't have premises to pay for, materials to pay for, and no prep work, just get straight onto known thick laquer on cars, I bet you could do them pretty cheaply as man-hour costs are concerned.

I'd suggest that goes for any company. If i didn't have a ton of overheads to pay for i'd be able to fit alarms for £200.

If you actually read the thread then you will also notice you need to be in a clean as possible environment to carry out this type of work.

Do you really think BMW would finish the cars, roll them off the line, drive them for 500 miles, then drive them back in to tidy up the laquer like you do?

If you had three hours with a car as it came out of BMW's paint oven, had no costs, just charged yourself out at £35 an hour for £100, do you think the car you had to correct, could have had enough work on it done to make a decent difference to the point most owners would be happy?
Remember here that you need no insurances, no liability, no paint measuring phase, no masking, no cleaning, no nothing, except your time.

I believe a decent difference could be made in 3hrs. A process COULD be added to improve the finish no end from what your pictures of the M3 showed in my opinion.

Maybe I misled you in saying they should match your finish, which I didn't mean, but BMW could quite easily add a process to vastly improve their finished product for very little outlay!

[Mr Whippy]

kds keltec said:

per-laquer cars are single stage paint process and the top coat is the colour coat in many layers (which can be flatted down between coats and on the final coat) this is the process that Rolls Royce did when painting in muliple layers to get the best possible finish when using single stage solid colours no laquer correct, so there is no base colour coat only primers , as i said the orange peel is on the top of the paint even if its single stage paint !

Thats no different to painting your bldy front door in a wood gloss paint and flatting the coats down to remove the brush marks and get a better flat finish , that is still not base coat as car paint , you could put 1 coat on or 10 they are all still top coats as you could stop at any number of coats and the finish would be shiney and not purous

Base coats dry matt and are porous ready for the next coat (top coat) to key to the base coat

powder coats again are not base coats but top coats pretty much anything that is sprayed and dries with a shine is top coat and that is where the orange peel will be !

How comes i see hundreds of wheels being painted every week in BASE coat powder primer that flows completely flat and fills in the casting marks , then painted in all different colours water based and solvent before the top coat of laquer and they all lay flat and smooth its only the laquer in its design that has the orange peel in the skin ????

I think you misunderstood my point on pre-lacquer car finishes. The orange peel will be on the top coat, but it shares it's topography with every other coat it will go on top of. Fine, if you flat the top one, it won't matter here, as it's opaque. It is still sensible to keep all layers as flat as possible though. If your primer has a run you don't just stick your paint over it in 10 layers then cut it out for example.

As for modern lacquer finishes, the problem is the coats UNDER the lacquer are visible, so they have to be flat, so if orange peel resides there, AND is transmitted to the top-coat (clear) because of it's lumpyness, then you can correct the lacquer, but not the paint underneath it.

I'm surprised you see powdercoat go on smoothly every day, because every wheel I have seen that is powdercoated has lumpy reflections, borne from the lumpy base and primer underneath it. I've never seen a powdercoated wheel with flat reflections, and the nature of the primers and bases is that they DO go lumpy, by design, mainly from reconditioners, because they use the thick base to cover the imperfections, and it goes lumpy (as any paint over-applied)...

As for the last point, lacquer goes orange peely by design!?!? Do you mean it is designed to be lumpy in finish?
It's odd because this BMW, and powdercoated wheels do, but from my experience well applied lacquer should flat out (and does on a smooth base)
I also question why OEM's like BBS and Speedline will wet paint their wheels, while cheaper aftermarkets powdercoat them and they look like crap with orange peeled laquer... yuck. Powdercoated laquer is usually lumpy because the base is lumpy as well. I've never used it, but I've seen enough (including my own), to know it's the base that is rough as crap to make the laquer rough. Flat it off, and the reflections go sharp, but the base is still rough!

Odd that powdercoaters and BMW are using these special 'lumpy' lacquers that make lovely smooth base coats have that that special "st" look lacquer finish


Again, not dissing what you do, it looks fantastic, but I do question your idea that ALL paints are perfect until the clearcoat, when all of a sudden everyone makes them lumpy as crap, and only you can save them

Edited by Mr Whippy on Friday 1st May 21:17

[Transmitter Man]

Tonibell,

Wheels are not powder coated but wet sprayed - at the factory.

Phil

[M3CD]

Thanks for the write up and great pics.

If I'm honest I'd say its a bit OTT with the depth measuring work on a new car (you won't be taking that much off) but hey if the customer pays by the hour why not (particularly like the excel showboating - lol)

Re the sideline conversation - if BMW actually WANTED to rectify the orange peel issue they could at source - it wouldn't add 80 hours per car to the production line - anyone who suggests that need shooting.

Someone spent 10 minutes pointing out the orange peel on my previous M3 and on the X5. Personally it didn't bother me one bit - just looks like normal paint to me. But horses for courses I guess - some are more OCD about things than others and its their money - if it makes you happy go knock yourselves out.

To be clear I'm not "dissing" anyone or anything - just sharing an opinion on the general matter of production time and orange peel.