Pics of my E93 M3 post KDS wet sand and paint refurbishment
Discussion
Mr Whippy said:
kds keltec said:
But comments like that make my blood boil , you best come and work for me then if it takes 30 minutes process and £100
you must be so sort of C
ck to think that and shows you really have no idea of time scale , skill , risk factor and the fact that you can't even read the thread properly to see that it is wet sanding the paint that removes the orange peel then machine polishing , and not running some cutting compound over the paint to remove the orange peel !
Had you read my post, you'd realise I make concessions for your process.you must be so sort of C
ck to think that and shows you really have no idea of time scale , skill , risk factor and the fact that you can't even read the thread properly to see that it is wet sanding the paint that removes the orange peel then machine polishing , and not running some cutting compound over the paint to remove the orange peel !If you had 100 cars a day coming through a machine with the same laquer levels on it, totally clean, not needing masking, measuring, paint depth checking, parts removing etc, on EVERY single model, + your overheads etc, then the process is actually really easy to replicate.
There is a HUGE difference between getting this right on the paint line, and correcting it on a finished car that has been exposed to the elements already.
PS, Glynwaxmaster does wet sanding doesn't he, where needed?
PSPS, don't mean to cause offence to anyone here, just so bloody amazed at how s
te that is. I'd have taken it to BMW before paying to have it corrected. Maybe then they'd put a bit more effort into their £50,000+ cars!Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Friday 1st May 16:25
whoami said:
Mr Whippy said:
kds keltec said:
But comments like that make my blood boil , you best come and work for me then if it takes 30 minutes process and £100
you must be so sort of Cck to think that and shows you really have no idea of time scale , skill , risk factor and the fact that you can't even read the thread properly to see that it is wet sanding the paint that removes the orange peel then machine polishing , and not running some cutting compound over the paint to remove the orange peel !
Had you read my post, you'd realise I make concessions for your process.you must be so sort of C
ck to think that and shows you really have no idea of time scale , skill , risk factor and the fact that you can't even read the thread properly to see that it is wet sanding the paint that removes the orange peel then machine polishing , and not running some cutting compound over the paint to remove the orange peel !If you had 100 cars a day coming through a machine with the same laquer levels on it, totally clean, not needing masking, measuring, paint depth checking, parts removing etc, on EVERY single model, + your overheads etc, then the process is actually really easy to replicate.
There is a HUGE difference between getting this right on the paint line, and correcting it on a finished car that has been exposed to the elements already.
PS, Glynwaxmaster does wet sanding doesn't he, where needed?
PSPS, don't mean to cause offence to anyone here, just so bloody amazed at how s
te that is. I'd have taken it to BMW before paying to have it corrected. Maybe then they'd put a bit more effort into their £50,000+ cars!Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Friday 1st May 16:25
I gently spoke in a hush voice so not to startle him but got no reply. However i could just about make out utterings from his mouth which sounded like
s, s, s but don't hold me to that, could have been 'stunts',who knows, it was a bit nonsensical tbh . I quietly picked up the bits I wanted and left the money on the desk not wanting to disturb a tired and broken man.
Being a caring person I did text him a while back but got no reply, so hope he's ok!!!
I'll go see him in the morning and report back my findings if he hasn't replied by high noon on Sunday.
Edited by Westy Pre-Lit on Sunday 3rd May 01:04
Mr Whippy said:
So BMW forgot to use cutting compound on the lacquer of this guys BMW after the machines had finished with it 
I honestly can't believe BMW let their cars go out without a decent cut back if the machines spary lacquer on like that. Especially as they have all that lacquer on, it'd make sense it was ripe for a good cut back...
Hmmmm, something fishy imho, or BMW are just absolutely and completely lame, which I can't agree with!
Orange peel on bases, fine, I guess, but on lacquer!?
Dave
You do realise OP is mostly in the clearcoat layer, since it is often as a result of putting it on too thickly.I honestly can't believe BMW let their cars go out without a decent cut back if the machines spary lacquer on like that. Especially as they have all that lacquer on, it'd make sense it was ripe for a good cut back...
Hmmmm, something fishy imho, or BMW are just absolutely and completely lame, which I can't agree with!
Orange peel on bases, fine, I guess, but on lacquer!?
Dave
It's cheaper to do that, than multiple passes of thinner layers, which as you can appreciate on a production line, is never going to happen.
Final machine polish as well - nope, that's also another expense that can be removed.
Mr Whippy said:
But still, what is going over with a cutting compound. The work here was ultimately alot of checking/prepping by the person doing the work, BMW could easily add a 30min process to the line for about £100 and have the cars coming out like this...!
That is why I think there is something a bit wrong here... OR, people are seriously mad to be buying cars that are half-finished and look so completely and utterly ste from NEW! Especially £50,000 ones!
Dave
Can't say I know for sure, but I suspect 2 things wrong with your comment:That is why I think there is something a bit wrong here... OR, people are seriously mad to be buying cars that are half-finished and look so completely and utterly s
te from NEW! Especially £50,000 ones!Dave
1) £100 wouldn't even begin to cover the additional cost of doing so, if your half hour appraisal was accurate
2) which if it were, that'd mean about 16 cars getting checked per man, per day. How many cars per day do you thing BMW churn out? Somehow, I think it's more than 160, which is ten employees solely for that one task. That's ten employees needing trained, ten sets of polishers, ten sets of pads, ten sets of compounds, ten sets of etc, etc, and etc,
3) which leads me to......just how much rectification do you thing you can achieve in 30 mins?
4) and also raises a question over how 16 cars would be done in a shift (assuming 8 hours max) when there's the worker's legal entitlement to lunch and tea breaks - so we're down to 13 now.
Sadly, you clearly didn't stop to think through your "argument" there, otherwise you may have been on to something.....which you were when mentioning people paying £50K for sh!te paint. Yes, it would seem indeed they do, and are more than happy to do so - think BMW may have come to the same conclusion, which is bolstering their profits.
So, 10 employees, trained as skilled operators, or hired in already as skilled, has to be worth £200K per annum minimum, plus all the other perks/benefits/NIC/provision of tools, lighting, floor space, etc.
Probably closer to £350K, which if they were to do for every car off the line, would result in millions being spent on something the vast majority of buyers are completely ignorant of or couldn't give two hoots about.
Westy Pre-Lit said:
I'll go see him in the morning and report back my findings if he hasn't replied by high noon on Sunday.
Stand by your beds I have an updatehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCxjwZe83Xk
I'm happy to report at precisely 10.36am GMT, i received a text saying all is well with the world. Apparently he has a nasty bump on his head but nothing that won't heel.
Computer however is not in great shape but with a bit of spit and polish can be fixed.
Doctor Westy has diagnosed a mild case of PTS.....'PH Tension Syndrome' and recommended a week off from frequenting the forum.
Edited by Westy Pre-Lit on Sunday 3rd May 12:59
Good thread.. and well done to KDS for taking the time to run a very well put together and informative post on the process and how to do it properly... anyone who thinks they can do this for a fiver and 30 minutes with a soft cloth is dreaming.. this kind of work is incedibly labour intensive, and there is a knack and a science to getting the process right..
I spent a day machine polishing my car recently and polishing it after and yes it looks bloody great now.. but i have access to all the proper gear, and a pretty good idea of what im doing, and had some nice flat laquer to start with..
What gets out of quality control on the modern stuff E92's is IMHO a bloody discrace, if Stevie Wonder was doing the final sign off on what is acceptable he would do a better job..
The quality of the factory laquer finish on KDS pre-correction on the E92 is truly aweful, and i would be billing the dealership for the correction work..
It does take days, up to a week to do the preparation to mask it all off and flat the laquer back to a point where its worth polishing up... and this aint going to be cheap.. but the results are stunning.. good luck to you KDS.. i will come find you if ever i need your services..
I spent a day machine polishing my car recently and polishing it after and yes it looks bloody great now.. but i have access to all the proper gear, and a pretty good idea of what im doing, and had some nice flat laquer to start with..
What gets out of quality control on the modern stuff E92's is IMHO a bloody discrace, if Stevie Wonder was doing the final sign off on what is acceptable he would do a better job..
The quality of the factory laquer finish on KDS pre-correction on the E92 is truly aweful, and i would be billing the dealership for the correction work..
It does take days, up to a week to do the preparation to mask it all off and flat the laquer back to a point where its worth polishing up... and this aint going to be cheap.. but the results are stunning.. good luck to you KDS.. i will come find you if ever i need your services..
PJ S said:
Mr Whippy said:
But still, what is going over with a cutting compound. The work here was ultimately alot of checking/prepping by the person doing the work, BMW could easily add a 30min process to the line for about £100 and have the cars coming out like this...!
That is why I think there is something a bit wrong here... OR, people are seriously mad to be buying cars that are half-finished and look so completely and utterly ste from NEW! Especially £50,000 ones!
Dave
Can't say I know for sure, but I suspect 2 things wrong with your comment:That is why I think there is something a bit wrong here... OR, people are seriously mad to be buying cars that are half-finished and look so completely and utterly s
te from NEW! Especially £50,000 ones!Dave
1) £100 wouldn't even begin to cover the additional cost of doing so, if your half hour appraisal was accurate
2) which if it were, that'd mean about 16 cars getting checked per man, per day. How many cars per day do you thing BMW churn out? Somehow, I think it's more than 160, which is ten employees solely for that one task. That's ten employees needing trained, ten sets of polishers, ten sets of pads, ten sets of compounds, ten sets of etc, etc, and etc,
3) which leads me to......just how much rectification do you thing you can achieve in 30 mins?
4) and also raises a question over how 16 cars would be done in a shift (assuming 8 hours max) when there's the worker's legal entitlement to lunch and tea breaks - so we're down to 13 now.
Sadly, you clearly didn't stop to think through your "argument" there, otherwise you may have been on to something.....which you were when mentioning people paying £50K for sh!te paint. Yes, it would seem indeed they do, and are more than happy to do so - think BMW may have come to the same conclusion, which is bolstering their profits.
So, 10 employees, trained as skilled operators, or hired in already as skilled, has to be worth £200K per annum minimum, plus all the other perks/benefits/NIC/provision of tools, lighting, floor space, etc.
Probably closer to £350K, which if they were to do for every car off the line, would result in millions being spent on something the vast majority of buyers are completely ignorant of or couldn't give two hoots about.
The fact they let it out looking like some kid did it with a tin of 1k lacquer from Halfrauds doesn't fill you with that warm fuzzy feeling, even on a £25k 3 series I'd be pretty gutted with that finish to be honest!
Dave
I see what you've saying Dave, but remember the cars come from the factory like that, and the dealer's valters ultimately either botch up the prep'ing of the car prior to collection by trying to do the task in one step using G3, most likely.
There's a reason it's referred to as liquid sandpaper, and most users in the dealership side of things, don't refine their work with G10 to remove the buffer trails and holograms generated from the wrong technique and product used from the outset.
I wouldn't put myself up at Kelly's level, but I will flatten the paint on occasion to make life a bit easier when removing deepish RiDS (random deep scratches), but there's no point doing the job on the line, since even without the need to mask off (edges will need to be steered well clear off, as the paint is ALWAYS thinner there) and so forth, the shell would need to be halted for the work to be done.
The point then becomes that it's only worth BMW's effort/expense to do this at the factory stage if they were to remove the orange peel completely - otherwise the finish is glossy and defect-free (nibs, etc).
So, I suspect they have foisted this upon the dealer to sort, if they should get a customer who's less than happy with the look of the paint. This saves BMW money being spent on every car being done, and either an allowance given to the dealer to spend on his valeters to make right, whom are paid about £35-50 in total to "buff" the car - hence why they use G3, and the buyer generally winds up with something looking like it's been dragged through a hedge backwards, or it comes out of their profit, hence why they want cars done as cheaply as they are.
Been there done that to a degree - they're not interested in paying £300 for a proper corrective detail, when they can get away with typically spending £50 max.
And that's before any repairs are factored in prior to receipt at the dealership, or whilst being prep'd for customer collection/delivery.
As you should be able to see now, until every customer complains about the state of the paintwork upon collection, and preparing to seriously reject it, manufacturers have no incentive to offer the best paintwork they possibly can direct from the factory.
There's further EU directives in the pipeline, iirc, which is likely to make the matter worse, or no better at the least.
Now with the cost and "situation" regarding electricity costs, paint manufacturers are focussing on UV cured paints, rather than current warm oven type.
There's a reason it's referred to as liquid sandpaper, and most users in the dealership side of things, don't refine their work with G10 to remove the buffer trails and holograms generated from the wrong technique and product used from the outset.
I wouldn't put myself up at Kelly's level, but I will flatten the paint on occasion to make life a bit easier when removing deepish RiDS (random deep scratches), but there's no point doing the job on the line, since even without the need to mask off (edges will need to be steered well clear off, as the paint is ALWAYS thinner there) and so forth, the shell would need to be halted for the work to be done.
The point then becomes that it's only worth BMW's effort/expense to do this at the factory stage if they were to remove the orange peel completely - otherwise the finish is glossy and defect-free (nibs, etc).
So, I suspect they have foisted this upon the dealer to sort, if they should get a customer who's less than happy with the look of the paint. This saves BMW money being spent on every car being done, and either an allowance given to the dealer to spend on his valeters to make right, whom are paid about £35-50 in total to "buff" the car - hence why they use G3, and the buyer generally winds up with something looking like it's been dragged through a hedge backwards, or it comes out of their profit, hence why they want cars done as cheaply as they are.
Been there done that to a degree - they're not interested in paying £300 for a proper corrective detail, when they can get away with typically spending £50 max.
And that's before any repairs are factored in prior to receipt at the dealership, or whilst being prep'd for customer collection/delivery.
As you should be able to see now, until every customer complains about the state of the paintwork upon collection, and preparing to seriously reject it, manufacturers have no incentive to offer the best paintwork they possibly can direct from the factory.
There's further EU directives in the pipeline, iirc, which is likely to make the matter worse, or no better at the least.
Now with the cost and "situation" regarding electricity costs, paint manufacturers are focussing on UV cured paints, rather than current warm oven type.
2 words........."Simply stunning".........and the best thing your about 5 minutes from my door.....I especially like one picture showing an outside reflection shot of some shrubbery makes it difficult to see the car almost like it's got some sort of magical cloaking device on, once again Mr. Harris simply stunning work I'll be paying you a visit very soon
PJ S said:
So, I suspect they have foisted this upon the dealer to sort, if they should get a customer who's less than happy with the look of the paint. This saves BMW money being spent on every car being done, and either an allowance given to the dealer to spend on his valeters to make right, whom are paid about £35-50 in total to "buff" the car - hence why they use G3, and the buyer generally winds up with something looking like it's been dragged through a hedge backwards, or it comes out of their profit, hence why they want cars done as cheaply as they are.
Been there done that to a degree - they're not interested in paying £300 for a proper corrective detail, when they can get away with typically spending £50 max.
Hi guys thanks for all the nice comments Been there done that to a degree - they're not interested in paying £300 for a proper corrective detail, when they can get away with typically spending £50 max.
Here is a email i got yesterday from a new customer , the email may have been sent to me after viewing this thread , but not sure if he is a pistonhead member or just J-P's friend either way shows the big problem with BMW's .
Removed names to protect party's
"I have a 2008 M3 coupe which is a fabulous car apart from the paint work – familiar story I guess.
The orange peel I could live with but the swirl marks drive me crazy – it has been returned to BMW (and returned in the same state) and polished by a professional detailer (which helped) but it still isn’t right.
I used to work with J-P who has recently had is M3 “restored” by you and recommends you highly.
Could I bring the car to you for an opinion of the best way to solve the problem and an estimate?
I am in Tonbridge so can get to you fairly easily – are you around Tuesday the 5th?"
Now as i have been saying the BMW paint is rock hard and the above email alone shows that 2 different company's could not fully remove the swirls which normally would remove 1 - 2 microns of paint (laquer) and the machine paint correction alone taking around 10 hours depending on size of car , colour and condition .
So how could it be possible to remove all the orange peel from the entire vehicle , which means removing upto 15 microns of paint, 10 - 15 times the amount of materail removed compared to machine polish correction (normal detail process by professional)
This is why it can and will take on some cars over 1 working week to replicate the OP's car and not 30 minutes as MR WHIPPY seams to think even if done at the factory before car is built .
I read a thread on M torque recently about the latest M3's and M5's asking how to remove swirls with loads of replys saying buy this and buy that and do it your self !
with member repling saying that they spent all day using such products and equipment and there are still swirls all over the paint,
the reply was for a member saying tried everything and every product spent days and alot of money, forget it its rock hard paint and now just gets a professional detailer to finish the paint correctly
I think read somewhere on this thread that alot of the time spent doing such a process is waisted on taking and logging paint depth readings ?
1) the time taken to do such a process only takes upto 2 hours total when using the correct equipment . The paint depth gauges are the advanced models which mean both can record 10,000 measurements in up to 1000 groups (batches) all done while taking the physical readings (no need to put pen to paper) then a quick up load on to the laptop using dedicated software !
2) I would never undertake such a process without first taking reading of the entire car to give me the confidence needed to know how much paint (laquer) is on the car . trying to skip a couple of hours work could end up all sorts of trouble and is not ever worth the risk .
I had an E46 M3 in recently that asked about wet sanding and i must say was one of the cleanest cars that i have seen for along time , but would like show car finish ,
so took a few measurements of the paint only to find a total of 90 microns ( a qualitiy piece of A4 writing paper being 100 mircons thick) of paint on the top surfaces , which shows its been machined polish proberly many times before (why it looks so clean) and has not enough scope left in the paint for the wet sand process !
Without measuring first or being able to measure the paint i would of been in all sorts of problems !
Kelly
VAG1 said:
So what did you do with the E46 M3 then Kelly?
sorry should of explained the owner is a very good hobby detailer by the looks of his car which is why it was in such good condition , he said that he has been looking after cars on the weekend for many years now ! I think he said that he works by hand and dual action machine only .
He wanted to find out how too remove orange peel from his own car , and by chance when he came in a was halfway through J-P's car.
This again shows that even good hobby detailers can run the risk of break through of the paint on even their own car without the aid measuring quipment, and this can happen from just machine polishing only .
I bet he had no idea how little paint is left on his car until i measured it.
So i did not do any detailing process to this car as it was swirl free very clean and not worth the risk to wet sand and polish back .
This is another reason top detailers take paint depth readings and start machine polishing with the finest cut possible to remove the swirls, without removing anymore laquer/paint than really needed !
This then gives you scope for many machine corrections over the life of the vehicles paint .
skeeterm5 said:
I really can't believe that finish, it is amazing.
Can I ask a daft question, does this process also involve fixing any small stone chips?
S
I will make this the last post i will reply to today as i am ment to be machine polishing not sitting at my desk Can I ask a daft question, does this process also involve fixing any small stone chips?
S
This will be dependant on colour , my own car being whats called a solid colour (not metallic/pearl) you can touch in the stone chips before the wet sand process , when you fill in the chip with paint it would normally sit higher then painted area around the chip , from this you would normally wet sand a very small area around the stonechip and the stone chip in a fine grade to level the paint back then machine polish the paint , this is the same when wet sanding a whole panel or whole car .
So yes on some colours it is possible to touch lots of chips in time dependant then wet sand the panel down, machine polish back to end up with paint that looks like glass aswell as chip free .
If the colour is a heavy metallic such as silver , the base colour (silver itself) can be made from a hell of alot of metal flakes and some colour , the colour coat is the carrier for the metallic flakes and when sprayed correctly the flakes will sit uniform giving consitent shade and colour .
When you try to touch in any matallic type paint the chip will be filled with a heavy amount of paint , which in turns the metal flakes sink to the bottom in the heavy thick coat . which is why the colour ends up darker with hardly any metallic showing in the touch in .
This then can look worse than leaving the chips alone .
Any solid colour and dark colours with a small amount of metallic can look very good after this process .
hope that made some sense
Kelly
kds keltec said:
This is why it can and will take on some cars over 1 working week to replicate the OP's car and not 30 minutes as MR WHIPPY seams to think even if done at the factory before car is built .
I made it clear on the very next post I didn't mean replicate your process, just do *something* to improve what they let out.As said, I bet a day of your time, if not more, is prepping, cleaning, measuring and other preparation before working.
I also mentioned the concession that you go above and beyond what most people might want, no bad thing, but even if BMW achieved a third what you did their cars would be vastly improved in this £50,000+ segment (from what it's starting to read like no BMW, no matter how expensive, is spared the naffness of a s
tty clearcoat finish!)So sorry to make out they should match your levels, thats clearly not realistic, my intention origianlly was to say that BMW could do a great deal and have the perfect opportunity to do so (ie, just out of ovens, car clean, bare, no need for prep/measuring etc) to improve matters and do a 'nice' job for not that much outlay at that stage. I guess they could match your levels more easily than you can at that stage because of reduced prep etc, but I agree it wouldn't be £100 worth of time to the process
Also, I still believe that orange peel under the clear is a problem area that is near impossible to resolve, but it is clear in your examples that it is clearcoat orange peel that is the enemy on some very modern finishes, especially BMW's!
No negative sentiments directed at you or your work, I think it's pretty damn good actually... just aiming my negativity at BMW and how they could improve their process at that early stage of manufacture even a little bit for not that much vs what people are having to fork out for such massive levels of correction after delivery
(I couldn't live with it for example, and would want it resolving!)Dave
kds keltec said:
PJ S said:
So, I suspect they have foisted this upon the dealer to sort, if they should get a customer who's less than happy with the look of the paint. This saves BMW money being spent on every car being done, and either an allowance given to the dealer to spend on his valeters to make right, whom are paid about £35-50 in total to "buff" the car - hence why they use G3, and the buyer generally winds up with something looking like it's been dragged through a hedge backwards, or it comes out of their profit, hence why they want cars done as cheaply as they are.
Been there done that to a degree - they're not interested in paying £300 for a proper corrective detail, when they can get away with typically spending £50 max.
Hi guys thanks for all the nice comments Been there done that to a degree - they're not interested in paying £300 for a proper corrective detail, when they can get away with typically spending £50 max.
Here is a email i got yesterday from a new customer , the email may have been sent to me after viewing this thread , but not sure if he is a pistonhead member or just J-P's friend either way shows the big problem with BMW's .
Removed names to protect party's
"I have a 2008 M3 coupe which is a fabulous car apart from the paint work – familiar story I guess.
The orange peel I could live with but the swirl marks drive me crazy – it has been returned to BMW (and returned in the same state) and polished by a professional detailer (which helped) but it still isn’t right.
I used to work with J-P who has recently had is M3 “restored” by you and recommends you highly.
Could I bring the car to you for an opinion of the best way to solve the problem and an estimate?
I am in Tonbridge so can get to you fairly easily – are you around Tuesday the 5th?"
Anyway, once Kelly has worked his magic, it will look amazing!!!
Mr Whippy said:
I made it clear on the very next post I didn't mean replicate your process, just do *something* to improve what they let out.
If enough people refused to purchase the cars then they would have no choice but improve the paint finish. However i'd hazard a guess that the general Joe Bloggs doesn't understand or have a clue what they should be getting in a way of a finish. As such they are happy with a paint finish that the more discerning person finds appalling. They probably have an attitude...well it's a BMW, it's £50000+ so all is good. A lot of their cars are probably company owned anyway, so i very much doubt paint finish is of high importance. If they are getting away with it and it's cheap for them why bother?Is that Kelly's fault that he is able to produce a top quality show standard finish and make a living from it ?
Mr Whippy said:
Also, I still believe that orange peel under the clear is a problem area that is near impossible to resolve, but it is clear in your examples that it is clearcoat orange peel that is the enemy on some very modern finishes, especially BMW's!
Am i missing something here?You say "I still believe that orange peel under the clear is a problem area that is near impossible to resolve"
But then you say "but it is clear in your examples that it is clearcoat orange peel that is the enemy on some very modern finishes"
So why do you still believe the problem is under the clear.
maybe I've misunderstood something because I'm getting lost now LOL.Kelly has clearly demonstrated in the pics that he has achieved a finish without even going though the lacquer. So where's the problem ?
Do i sense a bit of back tracking ?
Edited by Westy Pre-Lit on Monday 4th May 15:52
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