E60 / 61 M5 owners read this!

[ecain63]

Just found this while doing some research into clutch life and reasons for failure. I was never convinced that clutches only lasted 40k or so with light usage and was even less convinced that flywheels would ever need replacing below 100k. My theory that the only parts that need to be replaced were the guide bush and release bearing may actually be right. Read this thread below. The guy has 77k on his car, original clutch and fly. Note how fresh the clutch and fly looks, and also not the state of the release bearing and guide bush. Proof that they dry out if ever i'd seen it.

Surely this must be covered by warranty as its not just wear and tear. This stinks of poor design and i fear that BMW M5 owners have been forking out needlessly for new clutches and flywheels for years. Ive written an email to my local BMW workshop manager to to see what he has to say with regards to warranty. I'll keep you posted!

Eddie

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60-m5-e61-m5-tou...

[M5 Mark]

To be fair mine had 92,000 on it befoer neding new clutch. I had sued launch control more times than I can count and even a few track days. They are not all as bad everyone thinks!

[ecain63]

M5 Mark said:

To be fair mine had 92,000 on it befoer neding new clutch. I had sued launch control more times than I can count and even a few track days. They are not all as bad everyone thinks!

I dont think they are bad at all from what i have been reading over the past few days. It looks like the biggest issue we have is with the release bearing and the guide bush on the output shaft. The lack of lube between the two would easily cause accelerated clutch wear, and possibly cause overheating which may result in complete clutch failure. Im waiting with excitment as to what my service manager says with regards to my email. If it goes to plan then we might start getting these bushes and bearings changed under warranty. Theres a wealth of evidence out there.

[mikesgt2]

I have an E61 M5, 2007 done 36k. Serviced at 31k and the SMG serviced at a cost of over 1k by Ocean BMW. Driving in power mode shifting from 4th to 5th, car juddered then flashed the gear number indicator, then went out but then changed up to 7th juddered and flashed the gear indicator again. Realised that something has broken! Limped home about 5 miles car not happy at all thought it would cut out when slowing to stop at roundabouts etc but it got me back. When I parked it on my drive and switched it off I could smell that the clutch had been slipping at some point (drive is a bit of a hill) as the burning smell was pretty bad.

I have a full 5 star warranty from warranty direct (which hopefully will cover it) and the car had to be recovered to BMW North Oxford, they are dropping the gearbox on Monday but I think you may be right with your link to the release bearing being dry as I noticed a noise about 2 weeks ago when driving off from roundabouts without being stationary which sounded like the clutch slipping to deliver the power correctly.

No noise in M mode at all, only when under light load.

Trouble is if they put it to the clutch and flywheel (which the dealer mentioned they needed to see yesterday) I will get the bill as I am sure that a clutch is classed as a wear and tear part.


When it broke it would drive ok when in gear and on the move and the clutch was not slipping at all, but I did not put any real load on it..

Surely a clutch can not go at 36k?

Any thoughts?

[ecain63]

Hi mate. As you have had the dreaded transmission failure you might be the first to test my theory. Its a shame you dont have a BMW warranty as they seem much more forgiving than the Warranty Direct gang (i had Warranty Direct policy on my RS6 and they are a pain to claim from).

When it goes in for repair could you ask to see the release bearing and guide bush please? If they tell you that they dont have to change the guide bush then tell them to do it anyway as its a crucial part. It also needs to be lubricated properly when they fit a new one. If you do get to see it then could you also get some pics for me? If the bearing and bush are at fault you will see drag marks on the surface of the bush and on the inner surface of the bearing where it meets the bush. If its dry then this will be the cause. If this is not marked or scratched and is still lubricated then the clutch or pump will be the cause, but im fairly certain that we are looking at the bush/bearing issue with the SMG3 box on our later cars.

Ive still not had any judder since last weekend and ive driven over 100 miles around town. I took the car to my indy this morning to see if they could reset the clutch adaptations but on speaking to the head tech, (also a good mate) he said that he wouldnt advise reseting as the car would think it had a new clutch and fly when it didnt. In the process of learning the old clutch measurments there was a possibilty it could have a negetive effect on the life of the clutch / flywheel.

He told me a story about an 06 saloon they had in at the dealership where he used to work and he said that when they reset the adaptations the car refused to drive. After some investigation it appeared the renewed settings had caused the failure.

He did do a fault check and there were none to be found.

Let me know how you get on mate, im interested to see how this plays out as it might affect the future processes by which our cars are maintained.

Eddie

[mikesgt2]

Thanks for the reply Eddie,

I will ask to see the parts and will also ask them to replace the crucial bit. I am expecting WD to try and find any excuse to wriggle out of paying up so I intend to be a pain with the BMW dealer and make sure that everything is done properly as I want to keep this car for at least 2 years and I don't want to fork out for another failure.

I really think that this must be a design flaw with the SMG/clutch/bearing as so many of them do seem to fail at ridiculous low mileage.

I will keep you updated of progress as the box is coming out tomorrow so the meter is running!

Regards

Mike

[ecain63]

Thanks mate, I look forward to seeing the results. I'm in the process of writing to BMWUK on the matter so any further evidence you can muster will be greatly appreciated.

Eddie

[ecain63]

Today BMWUK confirmed they received my letter regarding clutch issues and the M5. Just waiting for the response, fingers crossed for all our sakes.

[mikesgt2]

Eddie,

I have been to BMW dealer today, they were very helpful too, I have video of all the parts in question. If you send me your email address I will send them over.

Clutch looks obliterated beyond belief but the release bearing looks ok, does have some minor marks but I am not an expert in this subject.

Regards

Mike

[ecain63]

mikesgt2 said:

Eddie,

I have been to BMW dealer today, they were very helpful too, I have video of all the parts in question. If you send me your email address I will send them over.

Clutch looks obliterated beyond belief but the release bearing looks ok, does have some minor marks but I am not an expert in this subject.

Regards

Mike

Mailed!

[mikesgt2]

Eddie,

4 small video clips emailled to you. Let me know if you get them ok.

Regards

Mike

[ecain63]

Thanks mate, the videos are very good but unfortunatly they do not show the parts i was after. Here are the bits i needed:

Worn Guide Bush (the sleeve bit over the output):


Inside of the release bearing (which slides over the guide bush):


Did you get to see these parts? Did they change the guide bush? Did you have to pay the bill?

Thanks again mate,

Eddie

[mikesgt2]

Eddie,

I did not get to see those bits, wish I had seen those pics when I went to the dealer.

I picked up the car yesterday, new clutch, flywheel, release bearing, guide bush all fitted. Very smooth now, still slow in auto mode though but the noise I heard a few weeks ago was obviously this lot failing causing the clutch to go bang.

No juddering at all now, I got the bill too, 2,5k in total but I am about to start a battle with warranty direct.

I do have the old guide bush and flywheel so I can take some pics of these and send them over.

Interestingly the old clutch has been sent back to BMW Germany! I presume this is a regular occurance which must mean something is going wrong with these cars. Even the sales guy agreed that it should last for more than 36k.

Regards

Mike

[ecain63]

mikesgt2 said:

Eddie,

I did not get to see those bits, wish I had seen those pics when I went to the dealer.

I picked up the car yesterday, new clutch, flywheel, release bearing, guide bush all fitted. Very smooth now, still slow in auto mode though but the noise I heard a few weeks ago was obviously this lot failing causing the clutch to go bang.

No juddering at all now, I got the bill too, 2,5k in total but I am about to start a battle with warranty direct.

I do have the old guide bush and flywheel so I can take some pics of these and send them over.

Interestingly the old clutch has been sent back to BMW Germany! I presume this is a regular occurance which must mean something is going wrong with these cars. Even the sales guy agreed that it should last for more than 36k.

Regards

Mike

I believe they get some money back for the old bits, and also they go back to Germany for testing and component data logging. Glad its sorted mate.

[mikesgt2]

Eddie,

Photo's of release bearing, guide bush and flywheel.

Any comments on condition etc?

Regards

Mike

[ecain63]

mikesgt2 said:

Eddie,

Photo's of release bearing, guide bush and flywheel.

Any comments on condition etc?

Regards

Mike

Just looked at the pics and it does seem that the inner surface of the bearing is scored. This is caused by the lubricant grease drying up and the inner ring dragging on the guide bush. Fly looks ok though. I was told that if the inner ring of the bearing was scored and marked the new clutch would be covered by warranty. Might be worth getting the parts looked at by BMWUK, sent along with a reciept from your dealer to prove the condition of the old parts. Might get you some or all of your money back.

Eddie

[kev b]

The release bearing inner sleeve pictured looks as if it has no grease residue at all in the inner groove,I would expect to see the groove full of grease/grease residue. In my opinion it looks like there may have been a lack of, or, wrong grade lubricant from new.

[ecain63]

kev b said:

The release bearing inner sleeve pictured looks as if it has no grease residue at all in the inner groove,I would expect to see the groove full of grease/grease residue. In my opinion it looks like there may have been a lack of, or, wrong grade lubricant from new.

Just for your info the grease used on the bush / bearing surface is a special dealer only part, complely specific to guide bush / bearing. If it was the wrong stuff or none at all then the bush wont last long.

[kev b]

That's my point, a lot of these bearings don't seem to last long at all. In your picture there appears to be no grease or "burnt" residue in the inner sleeve groove where I would expect some to remain. Maybe it vapourised or the technician simply wiped it off before the photo was taken. It is not impossible that insufficient lubricant was applied at manufacture, worse mistakes have happened many times before. I don't want to divert this thread but I just felt I had to add my 2p worth. Good luck sorting this out I hope this does not spoil the M5 experience for you.

[austinbyrne]

Hi mikesgt2, Just wondering what ever happened with your warranty claim for the repair? DId warranty direct pay up? I am thinking about buying an 07 M5 with 33k. Cheers Austin.