E61 Clutch Judder repair result (at last)
Discussion
jcolley said:
If your SMG had any recall work performed in ~2008, it is most unlikely that the transmission itself was dropped and opened for this. The pump motor can be remove and replaced just by pivoting the rear of the transmission down to access the side of the hydraulic unit.
Regarding your cold shift harshness and occasional gear slamming, these could be the result of excessive friction on the CRB, but may be no more significant than the transmission needing to be "adapted" again. "Adaptation" (the most poorly chosen words of translation possible) for the SMG really isn't adapting to anything at all, but more of a sensor and solenoid current calibration for the hydraulic unit. These calibration values tend to drift over time due to electrical resistance changes, physical friction changes, hydraulic fluid degradation (note there is no flush procedure anywhere from BMW for the hydraulic fluid), and sealing software (o-ring) degradation. All of these effects, however minor, add up to less than desirable shift quality.
The full 3 step adaptation process can be performed using diagnostic software from the dealership (ISTA/S). They are going to scoff at you when you ask most likely, stating that it's unheard of unless you remove and replace the transmission. Until they can explain to you what every single component in the hydraulic unit does, don't take much stock in what the tell you. Furthermore, I have found that performing the adaptation on a nice, warm transmission makes an even larger difference in the smoothness over adapting a cold transmission.
It only takes about 30 minutes of labor to adapt the SMG. It may not help at all with what you describe, but I would always recommend the least invasive diagnostic approach before open-heart surgery. You'd be amazed at the errors I've seen dealers make removing and reinstalling the SMG. My favorite is the one where they replaced the two extremely long trans bolts which go on the top of the bell housing, into the bottom of the bell housing. It added to extra drain holes to the oil pan when they punctured it.
Thanks jcolley, I'm just awaiting a return call from the garage to hopefully action the adaption, as per your advice. Much appreciated.Regarding your cold shift harshness and occasional gear slamming, these could be the result of excessive friction on the CRB, but may be no more significant than the transmission needing to be "adapted" again. "Adaptation" (the most poorly chosen words of translation possible) for the SMG really isn't adapting to anything at all, but more of a sensor and solenoid current calibration for the hydraulic unit. These calibration values tend to drift over time due to electrical resistance changes, physical friction changes, hydraulic fluid degradation (note there is no flush procedure anywhere from BMW for the hydraulic fluid), and sealing software (o-ring) degradation. All of these effects, however minor, add up to less than desirable shift quality.
The full 3 step adaptation process can be performed using diagnostic software from the dealership (ISTA/S). They are going to scoff at you when you ask most likely, stating that it's unheard of unless you remove and replace the transmission. Until they can explain to you what every single component in the hydraulic unit does, don't take much stock in what the tell you. Furthermore, I have found that performing the adaptation on a nice, warm transmission makes an even larger difference in the smoothness over adapting a cold transmission.
It only takes about 30 minutes of labor to adapt the SMG. It may not help at all with what you describe, but I would always recommend the least invasive diagnostic approach before open-heart surgery. You'd be amazed at the errors I've seen dealers make removing and reinstalling the SMG. My favorite is the one where they replaced the two extremely long trans bolts which go on the top of the bell housing, into the bottom of the bell housing. It added to extra drain holes to the oil pan when they punctured it.
scratch pervert said:
Has anyone recently had this issued covered by the Mondial warranty? I picked up an E60 M5 last week (which I'm loving) that seems to have the described symptoms.
Any help would be much appreciated.
Depends on the mileage.Any help would be much appreciated.
BMW AUC would cover it depending on mileage covered under your ownership or if you have a strong appetite for a legal case with them but I imagine it could turn out to be a long drawn out process.
Schermerhorn said:
Depends on the mileage.
BMW AUC would cover it depending on mileage covered under your ownership or if you have a strong appetite for a legal case with them but I imagine it could turn out to be a long drawn out process.
Mileage is 45k, it's a 57 plate LCI model if that makes any difference.BMW AUC would cover it depending on mileage covered under your ownership or if you have a strong appetite for a legal case with them but I imagine it could turn out to be a long drawn out process.
I tried to get mine done through Mondial but was told that if the clutch face was significantly worn when they opened it up that it wouldn't be covered.
It's a dilemma, either risk it with a main dealer and potentially pay the guts of three grand if they don't cover it, or take it on the chin and pay significantly less with a specialist.
In the end I decided not to bother as the judder is still fairly mild and infrequent. Given that I first noticed mine two years ago, you might still get plenty of life out of it, depending on your driving style and mileage...
It's a dilemma, either risk it with a main dealer and potentially pay the guts of three grand if they don't cover it, or take it on the chin and pay significantly less with a specialist.
In the end I decided not to bother as the judder is still fairly mild and infrequent. Given that I first noticed mine two years ago, you might still get plenty of life out of it, depending on your driving style and mileage...
Irish_Stu said:
I tried to get mine done through Mondial but was told that if the clutch face was significantly worn when they opened it up that it wouldn't be covered.
It's a dilemma, either risk it with a main dealer and potentially pay the guts of three grand if they don't cover it, or take it on the chin and pay significantly less with a specialist.
In the end I decided not to bother as the judder is still fairly mild and infrequent. Given that I first noticed mine two years ago, you might still get plenty of life out of it, depending on your driving style and mileage...
Thanks Stu.It's a dilemma, either risk it with a main dealer and potentially pay the guts of three grand if they don't cover it, or take it on the chin and pay significantly less with a specialist.
In the end I decided not to bother as the judder is still fairly mild and infrequent. Given that I first noticed mine two years ago, you might still get plenty of life out of it, depending on your driving style and mileage...
Mine is also quite mild but seems alot worse in M mode.
From reading on this forum I was under the impression that the premature clutch wear was the result of lack of lubrication on the bush... So would've expected it to be covered by the warranty?
First off, run the SMG slip detection reset described on p.180 of the owners manual. This can smooth at shifts at speed by calibrating the layshaft speed sensor to the wheel diameter, but has no effect in start-off smoothness.
Secondly, have a dealer, Indy, or friend with INPA, DIS, or ISTA/D run all 3 steps of the SMG adaptation process. This calibrates the current flow values of the 7 solenoid control valves and the PLCD set points. Most importantly it sets the clutch "kiss" point properly for engagement.
If all of these fail to improve anything, then pursue the potential hardware problems such as guide bushing (redesigned with a Delrin vice metal liner), or the flywheel with hotspots.
Secondly, have a dealer, Indy, or friend with INPA, DIS, or ISTA/D run all 3 steps of the SMG adaptation process. This calibrates the current flow values of the 7 solenoid control valves and the PLCD set points. Most importantly it sets the clutch "kiss" point properly for engagement.
If all of these fail to improve anything, then pursue the potential hardware problems such as guide bushing (redesigned with a Delrin vice metal liner), or the flywheel with hotspots.
jcolley said:
First off, run the SMG slip detection reset described on p.180 of the owners manual. This can smooth at shifts at speed by calibrating the layshaft speed sensor to the wheel diameter, but has no effect in start-off smoothness.
Secondly, have a dealer, Indy, or friend with INPA, DIS, or ISTA/D run all 3 steps of the SMG adaptation process. This calibrates the current flow values of the 7 solenoid control valves and the PLCD set points. Most importantly it sets the clutch "kiss" point properly for engagement.
If all of these fail to improve anything, then pursue the potential hardware problems such as guide bushing (redesigned with a Delrin vice metal liner), or the flywheel with hotspots.
Appreciate your response. Secondly, have a dealer, Indy, or friend with INPA, DIS, or ISTA/D run all 3 steps of the SMG adaptation process. This calibrates the current flow values of the 7 solenoid control valves and the PLCD set points. Most importantly it sets the clutch "kiss" point properly for engagement.
If all of these fail to improve anything, then pursue the potential hardware problems such as guide bushing (redesigned with a Delrin vice metal liner), or the flywheel with hotspots.
I'll give these a go
I had a good experience of the Mondial Warranty the past week or so.
Last weekend I was driving my M6 (E63) and the red cog of death appeared. I was sitting at a junction and the revs started to drop, almost as if the clutch was starting to engage. After a few seconds the engine stalled.
Anyway, BMW Emergency service were called and the car was quickly recovered and taken to Bavarian BMW Belfast. A loan car was provided straight away and I was mobile again. A few days of diagnostics ensued and it was found that the Clutch slave cylinder had failed and leaked oil into the clutch. So thanks to the warranty I got a new Clutch, Flywheel etc and slave cylinder. I'm a very pleased boy tonight.
My car was an '05 M6 with 78k miles. I was told the clutch had been changed previously at around 30k but have no proof of this.
I had experienced a fair bit of juddering on the clutch over the past few years or so. The release bearing was showing a fair bit of wear on the internal surface -
Last weekend I was driving my M6 (E63) and the red cog of death appeared. I was sitting at a junction and the revs started to drop, almost as if the clutch was starting to engage. After a few seconds the engine stalled.
Anyway, BMW Emergency service were called and the car was quickly recovered and taken to Bavarian BMW Belfast. A loan car was provided straight away and I was mobile again. A few days of diagnostics ensued and it was found that the Clutch slave cylinder had failed and leaked oil into the clutch. So thanks to the warranty I got a new Clutch, Flywheel etc and slave cylinder. I'm a very pleased boy tonight.
My car was an '05 M6 with 78k miles. I was told the clutch had been changed previously at around 30k but have no proof of this.
I had experienced a fair bit of juddering on the clutch over the past few years or so. The release bearing was showing a fair bit of wear on the internal surface -
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