E61 Clutch Judder repair result (at last)
Discussion
ecain63 said:
No probs mate. Either way, I think getting out of auto mode and into paddle mode is gonna help you big time. It might be odd for a few weeks but your clutch and wallet will thank you for it in the long run.
With regards to the judder, could you describe exactly what you are experiencing and under what conditions? The component failure vs actual wear argument needs a few more details before we can start choosing sides.
Eddie
EddieWith regards to the judder, could you describe exactly what you are experiencing and under what conditions? The component failure vs actual wear argument needs a few more details before we can start choosing sides.
Eddie
Not too much of an issue on my normal commute as I have a dual carriageway drive then more or less straight into the car park.
The juddering comes in heavy town traffic after about 10 mins or so as the clutch(?) gets warm following more useage pulling away at lights, roundabouts etc. At that point I experience judder pulling away in 1st or 2nd - admittedly with a relatively light throttle application, rather than your "hard peddle" application you mentioned in previous posts. Doesn't seem to be getting any worse with time or miles either.
Andrew
Right, that's quite interesting as you have the same symptoms I had. Your cars age also points a finger as they were treated to release bearings that had insufficient lubrication.
A worn clutch will fail very quickly on these cars and normally won't give you any warning. The judder is a symptom normally associated with something sticking when it shouldn't. As yours is only doing it after it gets warm I'd be inclined to push for a release bearing / guide bush inspection.
Have you read all of my related threads and seen the pics? Where in the UK are you?
Also have you used launch control at all?
Eddie
A worn clutch will fail very quickly on these cars and normally won't give you any warning. The judder is a symptom normally associated with something sticking when it shouldn't. As yours is only doing it after it gets warm I'd be inclined to push for a release bearing / guide bush inspection.
Have you read all of my related threads and seen the pics? Where in the UK are you?
Also have you used launch control at all?
Eddie
I'm currently going through the clutch replacement process with my M6. I've read all of the threads regarding the accelerated wear due to shaft/bearing grease issues. Mine is an early (manuf=10/05 but on an 06 plate) E63 which I bought 2 years ago with 32K miles on it. For the last 6 months or so I'd noticed the judder under foot, more akin to someone with poor clutch control than a real heavy judder. It was especially noticeable when stopped at lights after a good booting.
Anyway the car has 54k on it and the clutch is gone; v.poor changes, banging when going into gear etc. Dealer has it in bits now and I've seen the clutch plate which is down to the rivets. I mentioned the contents of this thread and asked to look at the bearing/shaft. While they were happy to try and get it under warranty, I didn't feel that they thought I had much hope.
Here are some pics from my car's guide bush:
This pic doesn't show much on the shaft. It's more round the far side that pic is no good.
What do you think?
Anyway the car has 54k on it and the clutch is gone; v.poor changes, banging when going into gear etc. Dealer has it in bits now and I've seen the clutch plate which is down to the rivets. I mentioned the contents of this thread and asked to look at the bearing/shaft. While they were happy to try and get it under warranty, I didn't feel that they thought I had much hope.
Here are some pics from my car's guide bush:
This pic doesn't show much on the shaft. It's more round the far side that pic is no good.
What do you think?
Glad to be of help mate. Like I said on the phone to you, its plainly obvious the difference between worn parts and broken / damaged parts. Yours was a clear cut case of no-lube on the guide bush / release bearing.
So that's gotta be circa 10 grand I've saved PHers since my epic in March, hope they don't black list me for my efforts. Lol
Make sure you run it in for afew weeks before you give it the beans.
Eddie
So that's gotta be circa 10 grand I've saved PHers since my epic in March, hope they don't black list me for my efforts. Lol
Make sure you run it in for afew weeks before you give it the beans.
Eddie
Think I might have the same issue. Went for a full throttle/red line 2nd to 3rd gear change and there was a 3 sec delay. After that every down change was accompanied with a big bang/ jolt with a death rattle at idle! Also smelt of burned clutch but on starting it up again an hour later the jolts/rattle have gone but theres a noticable judder in 1st and 2nd.
Noticed a bit of a humming noise at slow speeds last week which in hindsight could have been the clutch dragging.
I suspect its the release bearing but open to ideas?
The car is still covered under the extended warranty but has done 58k miles on its original clutch. Even if it is the bearing I think Im going to be in for a battle with the dealer due to the mileage
Noticed a bit of a humming noise at slow speeds last week which in hindsight could have been the clutch dragging.
I suspect its the release bearing but open to ideas?
The car is still covered under the extended warranty but has done 58k miles on its original clutch. Even if it is the bearing I think Im going to be in for a battle with the dealer due to the mileage
Sounds more like a worn clutch mate if its slipping between gears. Sorry to disappoint you. The judder thing should in theory only happen when pulling away, not when shifting at redline. Given your mods, mapping etc you'll be hard pushed to get a dealer contribution in my opinion, buy you can always try.
Hi Eddie. Sorry may have mislead you. No slipping at all and juddering is just when pulling away.
The delay when changing gear was accompanied by a massive jolt when the gear did engage. Almost felt like the tc was holding it back...ie no revs and no slipping.
The fact that it was jolting badly on every downchange thereafter but sorted itself out once it cooled down points me to the release bearing. Surely when the clutch is gone, its gone?
The delay when changing gear was accompanied by a massive jolt when the gear did engage. Almost felt like the tc was holding it back...ie no revs and no slipping.
The fact that it was jolting badly on every downchange thereafter but sorted itself out once it cooled down points me to the release bearing. Surely when the clutch is gone, its gone?
Can we just confirm what the judder is like? In the morning (any morning) when pulling away in manual first the car sets of and then it kind of bunny hops for a while until the revs get up to about 3k, then changing into second it does the same up to 3k etc.... until the car gets up to a good running temperature it will do this all the time. Is this what you refer to as judder?
Once it's up to temp and in M sport mode, I can give it beans and it changes gear so smoothly and quickly like it should do but on cold start it is bunny hopping.
Once it's up to temp and in M sport mode, I can give it beans and it changes gear so smoothly and quickly like it should do but on cold start it is bunny hopping.
Contigo said:
Can we just confirm what the judder is like? In the morning (any morning) when pulling away in manual first the car sets of and then it kind of bunny hops for a while until the revs get up to about 3k, then changing into second it does the same up to 3k etc.... until the car gets up to a good running temperature it will do this all the time. Is this what you refer to as judder?
Once it's up to temp and in M sport mode, I can give it beans and it changes gear so smoothly and quickly like it should do but on cold start it is bunny hopping.
No, that's nothing to worry about. That's just the engine warming up. I always leave the car to run for 60 seconds or so (until idle speed reduces) before pulling away. Allows the SMG pump to pressurise fully and engine oil to circulate. Once it's up to temp and in M sport mode, I can give it beans and it changes gear so smoothly and quickly like it should do but on cold start it is bunny hopping.
Bit of an update and its not good news so far.... Local dealer initially diagnosed a claibration fault logged with the clutch, so this was done. On the brief test drive afterwards, this seemed to sort the banging into gears but the judder was worse.
I was pretty convinced this was a release bearing issue still so authorised the box to be removed at a cost of £650.
The clutch plate was found to be down to the rivets over a portion (done 58k miles)......but the release bearing and guide were shot (scored, pitted, dry of grease with signs of heat damage...blueish tinge). The photos are below which show them to be in a similar state to those of Eddie's car which were replaced under the same warranty. Unfortunately my dealer is saying the dry and worn bush is normal and is a result of clutch debris getting into it and drying it out and therefore not warranted!
Spoke with Eddie on the phone who kindly took some time out to speak to me which was much appreciated and I fully concour with his doagnosis that this is a load of tosh. It is the release bearing that caused the sticking and therefore the clutch wear and not the other way around.
Unfortunately, (and probably not surprisingly) when I contacted BMW UK Customer Services, the rep has sided with the dealer stating they have no reason to doubt their diagnosis. Ive yet to speak to her as she went home a minute after she sent me the email at 5.05 yesterday evening, which in hindsight is no bad thing as it gives me a bit of time to pull the real facts together.
Do I have any further recourse? Feels like Im banging my head against a brick wall with the dealer so far.
Any help appreciated.
I was pretty convinced this was a release bearing issue still so authorised the box to be removed at a cost of £650.
The clutch plate was found to be down to the rivets over a portion (done 58k miles)......but the release bearing and guide were shot (scored, pitted, dry of grease with signs of heat damage...blueish tinge). The photos are below which show them to be in a similar state to those of Eddie's car which were replaced under the same warranty. Unfortunately my dealer is saying the dry and worn bush is normal and is a result of clutch debris getting into it and drying it out and therefore not warranted!
Spoke with Eddie on the phone who kindly took some time out to speak to me which was much appreciated and I fully concour with his doagnosis that this is a load of tosh. It is the release bearing that caused the sticking and therefore the clutch wear and not the other way around.
Unfortunately, (and probably not surprisingly) when I contacted BMW UK Customer Services, the rep has sided with the dealer stating they have no reason to doubt their diagnosis. Ive yet to speak to her as she went home a minute after she sent me the email at 5.05 yesterday evening, which in hindsight is no bad thing as it gives me a bit of time to pull the real facts together.
Do I have any further recourse? Feels like Im banging my head against a brick wall with the dealer so far.
Any help appreciated.
Edited by Aeroresh on Tuesday 28th August 07:18
All I can suggest is that you keep pushing them mate. Get a thorough understanding of the clutch mechanism, explain it to the tech and press it until it sinks in. I took photos of other examples with me to the dealer and I think it helped. Worst case scenario, phone another dealer (one who might actually be able to help, maybe mine) and ask if thier master tech (Barry is master tech at my local) would mind viewing the car at its current location.
Gassing Station | M Power | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff