E61 Clutch Judder repair result (at last)
Discussion
I think you have a strong argument that if the release bearing was working properly there would be no signs of scoring or overheating. Furthermore, if it was simple clutch wear (i.e. stop and go city driving or clutch abuse) the clutch discs would be worn more or less evenly and there might well be signs of overheating on the pressure plate or flywheel. Assuming those are only present on the release bearing and guide tube you can say with reasonable confidence that a dragging/sticking release bearing (as shown by the scoring and overheating) caused uneven wear of the clutch disc. A crap release bearing design/install is the cause of the problem - the effect is a sticking/juddering clutch and uneven wear of the clutch disc. Stick to your guns and don't get pressured into accepting responsibility. The unevenly worn clutch disc is collateral damage - not the cause.
Cheers for the input guys.....not sure how well bribery would be received, lol! Might drop some subtle hints and see how it goes!
Fair comment ref the uneven clutch wear. I should have taken some photos of the clutch disc but I forgot. I seem to remember about a third to be completely devoid of any friction material. Need to put a run out gauge to see how uneven it is for sure though as there wasn't a lot left on the remaining portion.
Eddie, shame your guy is at the other end of the country or I would have got him to have a look. May be worth a chat with him all the same?
Fair comment ref the uneven clutch wear. I should have taken some photos of the clutch disc but I forgot. I seem to remember about a third to be completely devoid of any friction material. Need to put a run out gauge to see how uneven it is for sure though as there wasn't a lot left on the remaining portion.
Eddie, shame your guy is at the other end of the country or I would have got him to have a look. May be worth a chat with him all the same?
Edited by Aeroresh on Tuesday 28th August 07:20
Problem is Mondial aren't even involved yet as the deaaler wont promote my case!
I think even if I phone Mondial up direct, without the support of the dealer I can't see me getting far?
Going to arrange a meeting tomorrow with the service manager armed with photos/ info, etc and have it out with them.
I am prepared to tow it from there if they don't play ball.
Watch this space........
I think even if I phone Mondial up direct, without the support of the dealer I can't see me getting far?
Going to arrange a meeting tomorrow with the service manager armed with photos/ info, etc and have it out with them.
I am prepared to tow it from there if they don't play ball.
Watch this space........
Guys, another update...spent the last week chasing my tail with BMW UK who won’t change their stance and will only ever support the dealer’s diagnostic as they are “the experts”....No real surprises there then.
Dealer would have known this all along though so I feel they’re just playing games as it was their suggestion to contact them as a way forward.
Not a complete waste of a week though as it gave me time to contact a certain dealer in Hampshire and spoke with their MPower master technician (sure Eddie can guess who it is
). He was most helpful and agreed with my diagnosis based on the facts that the clutch was worn out but the release bearing was scored and devoid of lubrication and also questioned the logic of my dealer’s diagnosis. He offered to put his name forward for a second opinion which was kind despite it not being normal dealer etiquette. Whilst he obviously couldn’t give a 100% diagnosis without seeing it, he was confident that based on these facts, if the car was at his dealership it would be supported as a warranty claim.
Armed with this additional support I emailed my dealer with all the facts and some photos. Whilst I’m told the tech has read it, he’s not changed his mind. The service chap was of little help when he phoned me to let me know the news. He told me he was just passing on the diagnostic result and is not technically minded so was unable to comment further! When asked if I could speak to the tech who presumably is, I was told he would have to ask his manager as it’s not normal protocol for technicians to speak with customers....What? This was yesterday afternoon and I have not received a call back since. I suspect this is their way of saying “Computer says no” and are unwilling to discuss the matter further.
As a last ditched attempt I’m going to speak with the service manager on Monday but so far all he’s done is closed rank so I’m not expecting much of a result.
This leaves me with a couple of options:-
Bite the bullet and pay £2600 to get my car back fixed....or get the car put back together, pay their £650 for the gearbox removal and refit and get it trailored down to the Hampshire dealer via my breakdown provider (already squared this up with them) even though its nearly 200 miles away.
Obviously a risk involved with this route but at least the transport down there is free so at worst all I’ve got to lose is the £650 and a train fare to Hampshire to pick the car up again.
However, if it does go through as a warranty item, what are the chances of getting my initial £650 back through the small claims court?
I’m swaying towards the Hampshire option as I’d rather give my money to another dealer after the way my dealer has treated me.
Either way, what a ridiculous situation to be in!
Any advice would be welcomed.
Dealer would have known this all along though so I feel they’re just playing games as it was their suggestion to contact them as a way forward.
Not a complete waste of a week though as it gave me time to contact a certain dealer in Hampshire and spoke with their MPower master technician (sure Eddie can guess who it is
). He was most helpful and agreed with my diagnosis based on the facts that the clutch was worn out but the release bearing was scored and devoid of lubrication and also questioned the logic of my dealer’s diagnosis. He offered to put his name forward for a second opinion which was kind despite it not being normal dealer etiquette. Whilst he obviously couldn’t give a 100% diagnosis without seeing it, he was confident that based on these facts, if the car was at his dealership it would be supported as a warranty claim. Armed with this additional support I emailed my dealer with all the facts and some photos. Whilst I’m told the tech has read it, he’s not changed his mind. The service chap was of little help when he phoned me to let me know the news. He told me he was just passing on the diagnostic result and is not technically minded so was unable to comment further! When asked if I could speak to the tech who presumably is, I was told he would have to ask his manager as it’s not normal protocol for technicians to speak with customers....What? This was yesterday afternoon and I have not received a call back since. I suspect this is their way of saying “Computer says no” and are unwilling to discuss the matter further.
As a last ditched attempt I’m going to speak with the service manager on Monday but so far all he’s done is closed rank so I’m not expecting much of a result.
This leaves me with a couple of options:-
Bite the bullet and pay £2600 to get my car back fixed....or get the car put back together, pay their £650 for the gearbox removal and refit and get it trailored down to the Hampshire dealer via my breakdown provider (already squared this up with them) even though its nearly 200 miles away.
Obviously a risk involved with this route but at least the transport down there is free so at worst all I’ve got to lose is the £650 and a train fare to Hampshire to pick the car up again.
However, if it does go through as a warranty item, what are the chances of getting my initial £650 back through the small claims court?
I’m swaying towards the Hampshire option as I’d rather give my money to another dealer after the way my dealer has treated me.
Either way, what a ridiculous situation to be in!
Any advice would be welcomed.
No further advice from me other than to peruse the offer from my tech in Hampshire. Do you need the box refitted to have it transported down south? Surely its just a 'winch on to truck' job. Hampshire won't have to strip it again if its already done. I'm sure you're gonna get a good outcome mate and the warranty should reimburse you the money from your current dealer if its proven to be a dry bearing.
Eddie
Eddie
Game over, by the looks 
Dealer rang me last night to say they’d submitted a request to BMW Tech to look at my case and were awaiting a response. It was too late for me to do anything but I asked how it was presented and they confirmed they just fill in a load of details with their thoughts. In my opinion they wrongly stated they thought the release bearing was ok as it was moving “freely” on the shaft, despite all the scaring and lack of lubricant.
Anyway surprise surprise, the Tech dept have responded saying they didn’t believe the failure was down to a manufacturing fault so no warranty cover.
This has kind of blown my Plan B out of the water now as it would be pointless taking to another dealer as BMW Tech have already given their answer (even if it is based on mis-represented facts)
Just waiting on a response back from my dealer to see whether they’ll fit owner supplied parts (which I doubt) so its looking like I’m going to trailer it to my local Indy who will do the work. I’ve sourced all the OEM parts including flywheel for under a grand which isn’t bad, so all in it shouldn’t cost more than £1600.
Not the result I was hoping for and I suppose I could carry on fighting....but to be honest most of the fight has gone and I just want my car back now!
Will have to find a new main dealer however as it will be the last they see of me.
Dealer rang me last night to say they’d submitted a request to BMW Tech to look at my case and were awaiting a response. It was too late for me to do anything but I asked how it was presented and they confirmed they just fill in a load of details with their thoughts. In my opinion they wrongly stated they thought the release bearing was ok as it was moving “freely” on the shaft, despite all the scaring and lack of lubricant.
Anyway surprise surprise, the Tech dept have responded saying they didn’t believe the failure was down to a manufacturing fault so no warranty cover.
This has kind of blown my Plan B out of the water now as it would be pointless taking to another dealer as BMW Tech have already given their answer (even if it is based on mis-represented facts)
Just waiting on a response back from my dealer to see whether they’ll fit owner supplied parts (which I doubt) so its looking like I’m going to trailer it to my local Indy who will do the work. I’ve sourced all the OEM parts including flywheel for under a grand which isn’t bad, so all in it shouldn’t cost more than £1600.
Not the result I was hoping for and I suppose I could carry on fighting....but to be honest most of the fight has gone and I just want my car back now!
Will have to find a new main dealer however as it will be the last they see of me.
ask them how much to take the car away as is.... they have already quoted 650 to put it all back as was so has to be less than that and will save cost other end.
agree take it to another dealer, it is possible however that they have had issues with replacing this part before and been stung by allowing it through on warranty thus being overly harsh... plus I bet the tech hated being told by the customer that they were wrong.
either way sorry to hear its not ended well... worse that you wasted so much time with them.
agree take it to another dealer, it is possible however that they have had issues with replacing this part before and been stung by allowing it through on warranty thus being overly harsh... plus I bet the tech hated being told by the customer that they were wrong.
either way sorry to hear its not ended well... worse that you wasted so much time with them.
Thats not good news mate. Seems to me to be a clear cut case of the dealership having a very anti-customer-opinion attitude. My local dealer is exactly the same. They don't like to be told what's wrong with the car and go out of their way to disprove your argument, even if you are right. This is why I drive to Southampton now for all my repair and service works. Top blokes there and very nice biscuits and cakes in the waiting area.
Sorry to hear the outcome. Perhaps 4*£50 in an envelope would have encouraged the technician to undertake the correct diagnosis. It's not bribery, you're not requesting for an 'improper performance' or to 'perform improperly'- it's simply a bonus for performing properly. Tonker/Soovy best placed for the legal angle!
Disclaimer: The information available in this post is not intended to be comprehensive, and many details which may be relevant to particular circumstances have been omitted. Accordingly it should not be regarded as being a complete source of bribery law and information, and readers are advised to seek independent professional advice before acting on anything contained herein. baz1985 cannot take any responsibility for the consequences of errors or omissions.
TO THE FULLEST EXTENT PERMISSIBLE PURSUANT TO APPLICABLE LAW, baz1985 DISCLAIMS ALL LIABILITY TO YOU AND EVERYONE ELSE IN RESPECT OF THE CONTENT IN THIS POST AND ALL SERVICES PROVIDED THROUGH IT, WHETHER UNDER ANY THEORY OF TORT, CONTRACT, WARRANTY, STRICT LIABILITY OR NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE, AND WHETHER IN RESPECT OF DIRECT, INDIRECT, CONSEQUENTIAL, SPECIAL, PUNITIVE OR SIMILAR DAMAGES, EVEN IF baz1985 WAS ADVISED, KNEW OR SHOULD HAVE KNOWN OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES.
Disclaimer: The information available in this post is not intended to be comprehensive, and many details which may be relevant to particular circumstances have been omitted. Accordingly it should not be regarded as being a complete source of bribery law and information, and readers are advised to seek independent professional advice before acting on anything contained herein. baz1985 cannot take any responsibility for the consequences of errors or omissions.
TO THE FULLEST EXTENT PERMISSIBLE PURSUANT TO APPLICABLE LAW, baz1985 DISCLAIMS ALL LIABILITY TO YOU AND EVERYONE ELSE IN RESPECT OF THE CONTENT IN THIS POST AND ALL SERVICES PROVIDED THROUGH IT, WHETHER UNDER ANY THEORY OF TORT, CONTRACT, WARRANTY, STRICT LIABILITY OR NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE, AND WHETHER IN RESPECT OF DIRECT, INDIRECT, CONSEQUENTIAL, SPECIAL, PUNITIVE OR SIMILAR DAMAGES, EVEN IF baz1985 WAS ADVISED, KNEW OR SHOULD HAVE KNOWN OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES.
baz1985 said:
Sorry to hear the outcome. Perhaps 4*£50 in an envelope would have encouraged the technician to undertake the correct diagnosis. It's not bribery, you're not requesting for an 'improper performance' or to 'perform improperly'- it's simply a bonus for performing properly. Tonker/Soovy best placed for the legal angle!
Disclaimer: The information available in this post is not intended to be comprehensive, and many details which may be relevant to particular circumstances have been omitted. Accordingly it should not be regarded as being a complete source of bribery law and information, and readers are advised to seek independent professional advice before acting on anything contained herein. baz1985 cannot take any responsibility for the consequences of errors or omissions.
TO THE FULLEST EXTENT PERMISSIBLE PURSUANT TO APPLICABLE LAW, baz1985 DISCLAIMS ALL LIABILITY TO YOU AND EVERYONE ELSE IN RESPECT OF THE CONTENT IN THIS POST AND ALL SERVICES PROVIDED THROUGH IT, WHETHER UNDER ANY THEORY OF TORT, CONTRACT, WARRANTY, STRICT LIABILITY OR NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE, AND WHETHER IN RESPECT OF DIRECT, INDIRECT, CONSEQUENTIAL, SPECIAL, PUNITIVE OR SIMILAR DAMAGES, EVEN IF baz1985 WAS ADVISED, KNEW OR SHOULD HAVE KNOWN OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES.
You didnt 'sort' that 1-direction squabble today did you? lolDisclaimer: The information available in this post is not intended to be comprehensive, and many details which may be relevant to particular circumstances have been omitted. Accordingly it should not be regarded as being a complete source of bribery law and information, and readers are advised to seek independent professional advice before acting on anything contained herein. baz1985 cannot take any responsibility for the consequences of errors or omissions.
TO THE FULLEST EXTENT PERMISSIBLE PURSUANT TO APPLICABLE LAW, baz1985 DISCLAIMS ALL LIABILITY TO YOU AND EVERYONE ELSE IN RESPECT OF THE CONTENT IN THIS POST AND ALL SERVICES PROVIDED THROUGH IT, WHETHER UNDER ANY THEORY OF TORT, CONTRACT, WARRANTY, STRICT LIABILITY OR NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE, AND WHETHER IN RESPECT OF DIRECT, INDIRECT, CONSEQUENTIAL, SPECIAL, PUNITIVE OR SIMILAR DAMAGES, EVEN IF baz1985 WAS ADVISED, KNEW OR SHOULD HAVE KNOWN OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES.
Yeah, after bmw got involved there wasnt much of a way forward unfortunately other than bending over and paying to get it fixed.
Rather than giving the dealer the satisfaction however, I went round there with a trailer, paid them the £320 I owed them for the strip down and towed it to my local indy down the road....managed to cause a bit of chaos loading it up in the car park too which was a bonus!
Was going to fit an uprated SPEC clutch and lightened flywheel but there was a 3 week lead in time which I couldnt afford so sourced the OEM clutch and flywheel kit online (£834!) and with other sundry parts and labour the total bill came to £1320 including the money I gave the main dealer.
If Id just gone to the indy in the first place the total would have been under £1200 all in which is less than half the price of the main dealer!
Not quite the result I was hoping for but not as bad as it could have been!
I've still got the old bits, and if I was a little more motivated (read having the time) Id probably send the release bearing off for further analysis, but for now Im just happy have the beast back!
Rather than giving the dealer the satisfaction however, I went round there with a trailer, paid them the £320 I owed them for the strip down and towed it to my local indy down the road....managed to cause a bit of chaos loading it up in the car park too which was a bonus!
Was going to fit an uprated SPEC clutch and lightened flywheel but there was a 3 week lead in time which I couldnt afford so sourced the OEM clutch and flywheel kit online (£834!) and with other sundry parts and labour the total bill came to £1320 including the money I gave the main dealer.
If Id just gone to the indy in the first place the total would have been under £1200 all in which is less than half the price of the main dealer!
Not quite the result I was hoping for but not as bad as it could have been!
I've still got the old bits, and if I was a little more motivated (read having the time) Id probably send the release bearing off for further analysis, but for now Im just happy have the beast back!
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