E61 Clutch Judder repair result (at last)
Discussion
Good news. Mine's going in next week for a Master Tech to drive as I'm pretty sure the clutch (or rather release bearing) is on it's way out (66k). Oddly enough I had the same issue with the Maserati - despite loving manual gearboxes (flappy-paddle or otherwise) I still think autos make more sense with this sort of power behind them.
Aeroresh said:
Mine went jerky after a few hundred miles. Did the smg reset (pulling both the paddles back for a few seconds whilst coasting in neutral) and has been as smooth as butter again since....happy days!
Just so you know, that reset doesnt do the SMG box, it resets the diff data and re-records the rolling radius's of the rear tyres. As the diff is active it needs to know these things so it knows how to react in low grip conditions. My turn now: after a three hour motorway run, turned off the motorway and got stuck in city stop start driving. Every time I set off (P400 or P500) in S5 I now get severe clutch judder, to the extent that the whole car is shaking violently and the rear end feels like it is being subjected to some severe mechanical abuse. No matter how much I feather the accelerator, I get the judder. Only way to avoid it is take off aggressively. No problem on the motorway, going up and down the gearbox, smooth shifting. To add insult to injury, the car was full with wife, parents and brother in law...
I only had the car since September, having covered 5000 km (now at 76000 km), so the battle to have it covered under warranty (2 years BMW AUC).
I only had the car since September, having covered 5000 km (now at 76000 km), so the battle to have it covered under warranty (2 years BMW AUC).
ecain63 said:
Just so you know, that reset doesnt do the SMG box, it resets the diff data and re-records the rolling radius's of the rear tyres. As the diff is active it needs to know these things so it knows how to react in low grip conditions.
The diff is not active - it is merely a stronger version of the passive viscous diff fitted in the E46 M3 and Z4M... BMW started using active diff only in the F10... The reset you are talking about is to do with clutch slip so your rear tyres don't lock up when you are downshifting in slippery conditions...The gearbox measures clutch slip using speed sensors. If the clutch is on the verge of wearing out then you could be on the boundary of the gearbox deciding there's too much slip and cutting the clutch in and out on the next gearchange. Also the release bearing will stick when hot if it's the ungreased variety - at motorway speeds there will be less of a torque difference between the shafts so it's quite plausible that it wouldn't happen until you tried pulling away from standstill.
Thanks Andy,
Will see how this goes. I am currently 500 km from home, so will drive it back Thursday. Then had planned to drive it to Denmark over Christmas (2000 km return trip) but will see if BMW can repair it before. When this ordeal is over, I may have slightly changed my views about the reliability and costs associated with the M5...
Will see how this goes. I am currently 500 km from home, so will drive it back Thursday. Then had planned to drive it to Denmark over Christmas (2000 km return trip) but will see if BMW can repair it before. When this ordeal is over, I may have slightly changed my views about the reliability and costs associated with the M5...
I bought mine knowing that the clutch would need replacing sometime soon. New flywheel and clutch with modified (greased) release bearing is around £400 fitted at Scotthalls Hampshire (I supplied BMW parts). £3k a year to maintain a BMW might seem excessive, however it's not too bad given it's a 500bhp, 200mph 'supercar'.
Edited by stats007 on Tuesday 11th December 08:11
BMW did their diagnostic today, supposedly to check how many launch controls was on the clutch (none by me, no clue about the previous owner) and when I picked it up, I was told they had submitted a claim for goodwill. However, as the car is under warranty, and that I only bought it 3 months ago/5000 easy motorway km, I contested this, and the "goodwill" was changed to "warranty" claim... So far, so good, but want to see this materialising before I open a bottle of bubbles to celebrate!
Anyway, a 2000 km round trip to Denmark is set for Thursday, will see if I make it by my own steam or if a low loader will be needed!
Anyway, a 2000 km round trip to Denmark is set for Thursday, will see if I make it by my own steam or if a low loader will be needed!
rassi said:
BMW did their diagnostic today, supposedly to check how many launch controls was on the clutch (none by me, no clue about the previous owner) and when I picked it up, I was told they had submitted a claim for goodwill. However, as the car is under warranty, and that I only bought it 3 months ago/5000 easy motorway km, I contested this, and the "goodwill" was changed to "warranty" claim... So far, so good, but want to see this materialising before I open a bottle of bubbles to celebrate!
Anyway, a 2000 km round trip to Denmark is set for Thursday, will see if I make it by my own steam or if a low loader will be needed!
Day trip to Denmark! Wow!!!!Anyway, a 2000 km round trip to Denmark is set for Thursday, will see if I make it by my own steam or if a low loader will be needed!
ecain63, I PMd you regarding the judder repair but it seems you're very busy or message didn't reach you..
Great work BTW, a lot of people here would benefit from this and like you said the money saved from many members may be something like x0,000 pounds.
My car's got exact symptom but it's not that severe. What I mean by that is that it is still possible to fiddle the throttle to reduce the judder but that's with extremely slow acceleration and sometimes cars behind get annoyed and honk. Another way would be to accelerate quickly but it's quite unpleasant to do whilst having passengers at every traffic light..
Now I'm thinking it's my turn and I'd like to give it a try since I still have the full warranty.
I'd appreciate any further advice/evidence/information gathered including pics, any helpful info.
Thanks a lot,
Great work BTW, a lot of people here would benefit from this and like you said the money saved from many members may be something like x0,000 pounds.
My car's got exact symptom but it's not that severe. What I mean by that is that it is still possible to fiddle the throttle to reduce the judder but that's with extremely slow acceleration and sometimes cars behind get annoyed and honk. Another way would be to accelerate quickly but it's quite unpleasant to do whilst having passengers at every traffic light..
Now I'm thinking it's my turn and I'd like to give it a try since I still have the full warranty.
I'd appreciate any further advice/evidence/information gathered including pics, any helpful info.
Thanks a lot,
Hi all,
New to this forum, but v.interested in the result of Eddie (ecain63) getting BMW to understand that the M5 clutch release bearing is inherently defective - as in 'not fit for purpose.
55 E60 M5 showed cog of death and flared on acceleration, OK if driven relatively sedately. Parked up on New Years Eve, started but NO drive. Flat bedded to Sytner Newport who said that until they dropped the gearbox, they could not say why it totally failed. Hobsons choice - I agreed to this.
As expected, the release bearing sleeve was so badly worn that it probably 'propped' the clutch disengaged when starting, and there it stayed. Clutch disc and flywheel OK ( according to the excellent LUK troubleshooting guide, but clutch replaced anyway. Technician at Sytner, who I know has been there for 20+ years, said flywheel was fine too.
Now, I saw all the threads about this problem and decided to take it up with BMW UK, since to me, this is a design or manufacturing problem. Result - total stonewalling. 'Wear and Tear'.
I got sight of the ISTA diagnostics, which confirmed the clutch travel was short, but then cleared when they ran the operational diagnostic. Had they tried to drive the car at this point, I suspect it would have been driveable.
I have been trying to get someone at BMW UK to address the problem at a technical level, but all I get are 'Customer service executives' who repeat the same words - 'Wear and tear - the dealer says so', but in fact he didn't. I had their agreement to pursue it with BMW.
Anybody got ideas how to get BMW to recognise a problem and discuss it rationally. If the clutch had 'propped' when trying to do an overtake, the results could be nasty.
New to this forum, but v.interested in the result of Eddie (ecain63) getting BMW to understand that the M5 clutch release bearing is inherently defective - as in 'not fit for purpose.
55 E60 M5 showed cog of death and flared on acceleration, OK if driven relatively sedately. Parked up on New Years Eve, started but NO drive. Flat bedded to Sytner Newport who said that until they dropped the gearbox, they could not say why it totally failed. Hobsons choice - I agreed to this.
As expected, the release bearing sleeve was so badly worn that it probably 'propped' the clutch disengaged when starting, and there it stayed. Clutch disc and flywheel OK ( according to the excellent LUK troubleshooting guide, but clutch replaced anyway. Technician at Sytner, who I know has been there for 20+ years, said flywheel was fine too.
Now, I saw all the threads about this problem and decided to take it up with BMW UK, since to me, this is a design or manufacturing problem. Result - total stonewalling. 'Wear and Tear'.
I got sight of the ISTA diagnostics, which confirmed the clutch travel was short, but then cleared when they ran the operational diagnostic. Had they tried to drive the car at this point, I suspect it would have been driveable.
I have been trying to get someone at BMW UK to address the problem at a technical level, but all I get are 'Customer service executives' who repeat the same words - 'Wear and tear - the dealer says so', but in fact he didn't. I had their agreement to pursue it with BMW.
Anybody got ideas how to get BMW to recognise a problem and discuss it rationally. If the clutch had 'propped' when trying to do an overtake, the results could be nasty.
ecain63 said:
Hi John.
I didnt recieve any emails im afraid mate. To be fair the PH email service is often a bit on the mend.
Whats the mileage and history on your car? Have you launched it at all?
sorry for such a late reply and I appreciate your help.I didnt recieve any emails im afraid mate. To be fair the PH email service is often a bit on the mend.
Whats the mileage and history on your car? Have you launched it at all?
I followed a number of threads you posted and I got mine sorted now (you probably saw the post)
Btw, reg the question, the car was never launched in it's life (as far as i know)
All sorted now
johnn635 said:
Hi all,
New to this forum, but v.interested in the result of Eddie (ecain63) getting BMW to understand that the M5 clutch release bearing is inherently defective - as in 'not fit for purpose.
55 E60 M5 showed cog of death and flared on acceleration, OK if driven relatively sedately. Parked up on New Years Eve, started but NO drive. Flat bedded to Sytner Newport who said that until they dropped the gearbox, they could not say why it totally failed. Hobsons choice - I agreed to this.
As expected, the release bearing sleeve was so badly worn that it probably 'propped' the clutch disengaged when starting, and there it stayed. Clutch disc and flywheel OK ( according to the excellent LUK troubleshooting guide, but clutch replaced anyway. Technician at Sytner, who I know has been there for 20+ years, said flywheel was fine too.
Now, I saw all the threads about this problem and decided to take it up with BMW UK, since to me, this is a design or manufacturing problem. Result - total stonewalling. 'Wear and Tear'.
I got sight of the ISTA diagnostics, which confirmed the clutch travel was short, but then cleared when they ran the operational diagnostic. Had they tried to drive the car at this point, I suspect it would have been driveable.
I have been trying to get someone at BMW UK to address the problem at a technical level, but all I get are 'Customer service executives' who repeat the same words - 'Wear and tear - the dealer says so', but in fact he didn't. I had their agreement to pursue it with BMW.
Anybody got ideas how to get BMW to recognise a problem and discuss it rationally. If the clutch had 'propped' when trying to do an overtake, the results could be nasty.
sorry to hear that mate,New to this forum, but v.interested in the result of Eddie (ecain63) getting BMW to understand that the M5 clutch release bearing is inherently defective - as in 'not fit for purpose.
55 E60 M5 showed cog of death and flared on acceleration, OK if driven relatively sedately. Parked up on New Years Eve, started but NO drive. Flat bedded to Sytner Newport who said that until they dropped the gearbox, they could not say why it totally failed. Hobsons choice - I agreed to this.
As expected, the release bearing sleeve was so badly worn that it probably 'propped' the clutch disengaged when starting, and there it stayed. Clutch disc and flywheel OK ( according to the excellent LUK troubleshooting guide, but clutch replaced anyway. Technician at Sytner, who I know has been there for 20+ years, said flywheel was fine too.
Now, I saw all the threads about this problem and decided to take it up with BMW UK, since to me, this is a design or manufacturing problem. Result - total stonewalling. 'Wear and Tear'.
I got sight of the ISTA diagnostics, which confirmed the clutch travel was short, but then cleared when they ran the operational diagnostic. Had they tried to drive the car at this point, I suspect it would have been driveable.
I have been trying to get someone at BMW UK to address the problem at a technical level, but all I get are 'Customer service executives' who repeat the same words - 'Wear and tear - the dealer says so', but in fact he didn't. I had their agreement to pursue it with BMW.
Anybody got ideas how to get BMW to recognise a problem and discuss it rationally. If the clutch had 'propped' when trying to do an overtake, the results could be nasty.
I recently had problems with my gearbox, mainly juddering issue and sometimes big bang on the gearbox
The fault was the release bearing, the clutch and flywheel had sight of damage as a consequence of faulty release bearing and some nasty marks on the clutch.
BMW Leicester sytner (who I had the gearbox inspection done) got in contact with BMW UK and it came down to 'Consequential damage to flywheel and clutch due to faulty release bearing, hence covered under warranty'.
So all my parts were changed under warranty and other parts (guide bush, fork, pins, SMG fluid) that I've asked Leicester Sytner to change was done under goodwill.
Someone else mentioned on my previous post that it's all about getting in touch with a dealership who is happy to support your case and fight for it. I agree with that statement and I think it really depends on whether the dealership is willing to cooperate with you.
I hope this helps.
New (?) M5 owner guys, 2005/55 with 32k on the clock (only dry use!)
Last Thursday driving slowly away after a 3- point turn in town,
I had a gearbox/transmission problem, where-by I was indicated to drive cautiously, and take vehicle to my dealer.
I've noted the gearbox slow and clunky from cold previously, (from these post i understand that is normal, i should wait for the pump to get up to pressure)
But i have found the slight rear-ended feeling with a inconsistant gear change - but only very occasionally, (i've only covered 4K in the car)
Are any of you able to give me advice regarding what i should be expecting my dealer to take care of/ look at?
Would I be best to make it clear about the Release bearing & guide bush situation, and then i'll have evidence for the future-if they dont act- or do i drop the box now, potentially at my cost?
They've done an SMG test/input speed sensor & checked the supply sensor, and they cant get the error to repeat. It'll be at cost to me if there is no mechanical part having failed (Mondial Warranty).
It was subject to the recall (smg pump?) in 2008- is it likely that any release bearing issues would have been adressed at the same time- even just because of the vehicles age i'm worried that my bearing/bush might be dry....
I noted on an M5 board forum that they 'now' use a redesigned anti-galling- derlin inner race now- on the release bearing is anyone familiar with this redesign? (It notes that it must be dry of lubricants to prevent deterioration- or excess wear due to the attraction of clutch dust)
Also- is there a significant difference in my vehicle to the later Post-2006 cars- or if i've had the recall can all these Bearing/bush issues still apply to me (or worse still any additional issues?)
Last Thursday driving slowly away after a 3- point turn in town,
I had a gearbox/transmission problem, where-by I was indicated to drive cautiously, and take vehicle to my dealer.
I've noted the gearbox slow and clunky from cold previously, (from these post i understand that is normal, i should wait for the pump to get up to pressure)
But i have found the slight rear-ended feeling with a inconsistant gear change - but only very occasionally, (i've only covered 4K in the car)
Are any of you able to give me advice regarding what i should be expecting my dealer to take care of/ look at?
Would I be best to make it clear about the Release bearing & guide bush situation, and then i'll have evidence for the future-if they dont act- or do i drop the box now, potentially at my cost?
They've done an SMG test/input speed sensor & checked the supply sensor, and they cant get the error to repeat. It'll be at cost to me if there is no mechanical part having failed (Mondial Warranty).
It was subject to the recall (smg pump?) in 2008- is it likely that any release bearing issues would have been adressed at the same time- even just because of the vehicles age i'm worried that my bearing/bush might be dry....
I noted on an M5 board forum that they 'now' use a redesigned anti-galling- derlin inner race now- on the release bearing is anyone familiar with this redesign? (It notes that it must be dry of lubricants to prevent deterioration- or excess wear due to the attraction of clutch dust)
Also- is there a significant difference in my vehicle to the later Post-2006 cars- or if i've had the recall can all these Bearing/bush issues still apply to me (or worse still any additional issues?)
R14N OK said:
New (?) M5 owner guys, 2005/55 with 32k on the clock (only dry use!)
Last Thursday driving slowly away after a 3- point turn in town,
I had a gearbox/transmission problem, where-by I was indicated to drive cautiously, and take vehicle to my dealer.
I've noted the gearbox slow and clunky from cold previously, (from these post i understand that is normal, i should wait for the pump to get up to pressure)
But i have found the slight rear-ended feeling with a inconsistant gear change - but only very occasionally, (i've only covered 4K in the car)
Are any of you able to give me advice regarding what i should be expecting my dealer to take care of/ look at?
Would I be best to make it clear about the Release bearing & guide bush situation, and then i'll have evidence for the future-if they dont act- or do i drop the box now, potentially at my cost?
They've done an SMG test/input speed sensor & checked the supply sensor, and they cant get the error to repeat. It'll be at cost to me if there is no mechanical part having failed (Mondial Warranty).
It was subject to the recall (smg pump?) in 2008- is it likely that any release bearing issues would have been adressed at the same time- even just because of the vehicles age i'm worried that my bearing/bush might be dry....
I noted on an M5 board forum that they 'now' use a redesigned anti-galling- derlin inner race now- on the release bearing is anyone familiar with this redesign? (It notes that it must be dry of lubricants to prevent deterioration- or excess wear due to the attraction of clutch dust)
Also- is there a significant difference in my vehicle to the later Post-2006 cars- or if i've had the recall can all these Bearing/bush issues still apply to me (or worse still any additional issues?)
If your SMG had any recall work performed in ~2008, it is most unlikely that the transmission itself was dropped and opened for this. The pump motor can be remove and replaced just by pivoting the rear of the transmission down to access the side of the hydraulic unit.Last Thursday driving slowly away after a 3- point turn in town,
I had a gearbox/transmission problem, where-by I was indicated to drive cautiously, and take vehicle to my dealer.
I've noted the gearbox slow and clunky from cold previously, (from these post i understand that is normal, i should wait for the pump to get up to pressure)
But i have found the slight rear-ended feeling with a inconsistant gear change - but only very occasionally, (i've only covered 4K in the car)
Are any of you able to give me advice regarding what i should be expecting my dealer to take care of/ look at?
Would I be best to make it clear about the Release bearing & guide bush situation, and then i'll have evidence for the future-if they dont act- or do i drop the box now, potentially at my cost?
They've done an SMG test/input speed sensor & checked the supply sensor, and they cant get the error to repeat. It'll be at cost to me if there is no mechanical part having failed (Mondial Warranty).
It was subject to the recall (smg pump?) in 2008- is it likely that any release bearing issues would have been adressed at the same time- even just because of the vehicles age i'm worried that my bearing/bush might be dry....
I noted on an M5 board forum that they 'now' use a redesigned anti-galling- derlin inner race now- on the release bearing is anyone familiar with this redesign? (It notes that it must be dry of lubricants to prevent deterioration- or excess wear due to the attraction of clutch dust)
Also- is there a significant difference in my vehicle to the later Post-2006 cars- or if i've had the recall can all these Bearing/bush issues still apply to me (or worse still any additional issues?)
Regarding your cold shift harshness and occasional gear slamming, these could be the result of excessive friction on the CRB, but may be no more significant than the transmission needing to be "adapted" again. "Adaptation" (the most poorly chosen words of translation possible) for the SMG really isn't adapting to anything at all, but more of a sensor and solenoid current calibration for the hydraulic unit. These calibration values tend to drift over time due to electrical resistance changes, physical friction changes, hydraulic fluid degradation (note there is no flush procedure anywhere from BMW for the hydraulic fluid), and sealing software (o-ring) degradation. All of these effects, however minor, add up to less than desirable shift quality.
The full 3 step adaptation process can be performed using diagnostic software from the dealership (ISTA/S). They are going to scoff at you when you ask most likely, stating that it's unheard of unless you remove and replace the transmission. Until they can explain to you what every single component in the hydraulic unit does, don't take much stock in what the tell you. Furthermore, I have found that performing the adaptation on a nice, warm transmission makes an even larger difference in the smoothness over adapting a cold transmission.
It only takes about 30 minutes of labor to adapt the SMG. It may not help at all with what you describe, but I would always recommend the least invasive diagnostic approach before open-heart surgery. You'd be amazed at the errors I've seen dealers make removing and reinstalling the SMG. My favorite is the one where they replaced the two extremely long trans bolts which go on the top of the bell housing, into the bottom of the bell housing. It added to extra drain holes to the oil pan when they punctured it.
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