E61 Clutch Judder repair result (at last)
Discussion
Well, following on from this topic http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/xforums/topic.asp?h=0... i can now give you a final answer.
In a nutshell; it is a 100% successful result. My research and theory were 100% correct and the exact fault diagnosis was that the guide bush and bearing were dry and they were hanging up on the clutch fork due to the dragging. This is the 'judder' you feel as you pull away in 1st. The clutch and fly were worn out due to the slippage on take off but it was easy to see this wasnt just a worn clutch issue. I asked the techs to take some pics of the strip down / rebuild and i'll hopefully get them when i collect my car.
So, the big question is, 'is it covered by warranty or goodwill?'. Hell yeah!!! The warranty covers the guide bush and bearing failure so there is no cost to me. That's just saved me £2500, so for all you guys looking to buy into E60 or E61 ownership, let this be the proof of the pudding that you need a warranty!
Obviously my thorough research and persistant nagging paid off here but i cant help but feel that i also benefited from having a fantastic team working on my behalf at Scotthall BMW near Southampton. At the end of the day these are the guys you have to put your faith in to find the true fault and not just to write it off as wear and tear. I really dont think i'd have got the same result at my local dealer. God, i'd love to name and shame those guys!! I guess the big thanks goes to them and they'll be rewarded with copious amounts of lager when i collect the car, they really were very helpfull, polite and willing to listen to my side of the story. I think a few dealers could learn a thing or two from them.
To recap, if you have a judder and have a BMW warranty then the first thing you need to do is search the forum for my 'judder' threads. Do some of your own back up research so you know exactly what your looking at. Find a good dealer, as i did and get them to test drive the car before they strip it. Make note of odd noises, weird feelings etc and then press the theory about the guide bush and bearing. From there book it in and BMW should do the rest. I was bricking it until this morning but now im doing cartwheels.
If you dont have a warranty then fear not. Its only a 4.5hr job to refit a clutch and fly so you need to find a good indy. Read this http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/xforums/topic.asp?h=0... as it gives you the costings and part numbers of the OEM parts via Euro Car Parts. BMW charge £1200 for the flywheel wheras LUK produce them for £500 or so, and its the same part in a differnt box. I priced up a complete job at an indy at £1300 to £1400 inclusive of vat etc. This should help with the sleepless nights!!
I hope this cheerfull end to the saga will help other owners in the future as there now seems to be cause to believe the theory. If you think your local stealer wont get you the result to feel you deserve, find a new one. If you find a good stealer and they cant place the blame on the above then the chances are it wasnt broken and you just needed a new cluth, but thats the risk. I took it and won.
Im off for a celebratory pint now, enjoy your avo and i'll see you later.
Eddie
In a nutshell; it is a 100% successful result. My research and theory were 100% correct and the exact fault diagnosis was that the guide bush and bearing were dry and they were hanging up on the clutch fork due to the dragging. This is the 'judder' you feel as you pull away in 1st. The clutch and fly were worn out due to the slippage on take off but it was easy to see this wasnt just a worn clutch issue. I asked the techs to take some pics of the strip down / rebuild and i'll hopefully get them when i collect my car.
So, the big question is, 'is it covered by warranty or goodwill?'. Hell yeah!!! The warranty covers the guide bush and bearing failure so there is no cost to me. That's just saved me £2500, so for all you guys looking to buy into E60 or E61 ownership, let this be the proof of the pudding that you need a warranty!
Obviously my thorough research and persistant nagging paid off here but i cant help but feel that i also benefited from having a fantastic team working on my behalf at Scotthall BMW near Southampton. At the end of the day these are the guys you have to put your faith in to find the true fault and not just to write it off as wear and tear. I really dont think i'd have got the same result at my local dealer. God, i'd love to name and shame those guys!! I guess the big thanks goes to them and they'll be rewarded with copious amounts of lager when i collect the car, they really were very helpfull, polite and willing to listen to my side of the story. I think a few dealers could learn a thing or two from them.
To recap, if you have a judder and have a BMW warranty then the first thing you need to do is search the forum for my 'judder' threads. Do some of your own back up research so you know exactly what your looking at. Find a good dealer, as i did and get them to test drive the car before they strip it. Make note of odd noises, weird feelings etc and then press the theory about the guide bush and bearing. From there book it in and BMW should do the rest. I was bricking it until this morning but now im doing cartwheels.
If you dont have a warranty then fear not. Its only a 4.5hr job to refit a clutch and fly so you need to find a good indy. Read this http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/xforums/topic.asp?h=0... as it gives you the costings and part numbers of the OEM parts via Euro Car Parts. BMW charge £1200 for the flywheel wheras LUK produce them for £500 or so, and its the same part in a differnt box. I priced up a complete job at an indy at £1300 to £1400 inclusive of vat etc. This should help with the sleepless nights!!
I hope this cheerfull end to the saga will help other owners in the future as there now seems to be cause to believe the theory. If you think your local stealer wont get you the result to feel you deserve, find a new one. If you find a good stealer and they cant place the blame on the above then the chances are it wasnt broken and you just needed a new cluth, but thats the risk. I took it and won.
Im off for a celebratory pint now, enjoy your avo and i'll see you later.
Eddie
BOR said:
Congratulations. Good news.
A question that remains open, is whether it would make financial sense, to re-lube/replace the thrust bearing, say, half-way through the life of the clutch. Precautionary maintenance before it causes increased wear/damage to the clucth and flywheel.
Suppose you could yeah. Pay an indy £350 to do it rather than £700 at BMW. Your call.A question that remains open, is whether it would make financial sense, to re-lube/replace the thrust bearing, say, half-way through the life of the clutch. Precautionary maintenance before it causes increased wear/damage to the clucth and flywheel.
kev b said:
I am glad things turned out well in the end, well done for persevering.
What caused the bearing sleeve grease to dry up like that?
Insufficient or wrong grade of grease is normally the cause. The clutch comes as a kit comprising clutch pack, fork, bearing, adjustment tools and some bolts. The bearing is packaged 'dry' from the factory requiring the fitter to grease it and the guide bush with a specific grease that only bmw supply. Use the wrong stuff and it'll burn off and overheat creating a lot of friction and accelerated wear of the bearing followed by the clutch parts, use nothing and it'll overheat even quicker and burn out the bush, bearing and eventually the clutch and fly. The friction between the bush and bearing causes the surfaces to mark and score resulting in an uneven movement of the parts. This is the judder, caused by the clutch plates not meeting the fly smoothly. The clutch fork will also catch on the moving parts as they will be in the wrong place at the wrong time. All in, no grease a recipe for failure. What caused the bearing sleeve grease to dry up like that?
Edited by ecain63 on Tuesday 8th March 18:03
Well done Eddie! Just came home from an hour & a half drive, and juddering started as soon as I hit stop start traffic. I guess the heating up of the parts causes them to expand and stick, as on short journeys I don't get this issue. My local supplying dealer is Scotthall Stirling Corner - I wonder if they share info company wide.. I'm not sure I should book it in if there is going to be any wrangling as mostly its not a bother..
danjp said:
Well done Eddie! Just came home from an hour & a half drive, and juddering started as soon as I hit stop start traffic. I guess the heating up of the parts causes them to expand and stick, as on short journeys I don't get this issue. My local supplying dealer is Scotthall Stirling Corner - I wonder if they share info company wide.. I'm not sure I should book it in if there is going to be any wrangling as mostly its not a bother..
The thing is that it'll get worse over time. In my opinion and very recent experience i'd book it in for a test drive / diagnostics session with your dealer so that it gets on the system. Tell them it only happens rarely, like mine did and they'll probably tell you to go away and come back when it gets worse. Mention the bearing and bush issue, his response will tell you whether or not he is interested in your case. If they dont want to play ball or listen to you then you'll know to go elsewhere. From there take it away and wait for it to judder more regularly. If your dealer is any good they will strip the box and find what mine found. If you have low mileage (below 50k) then tell them you are not happy that its happened so early on. If its above 50k then they might not be so receptive, but try anyway. Tell them that if the warranty wont cover it then you want them to go down the 'goodwill' path. From there its in BMW's hands. Another thing i did was print copies of the pictures in my other thread, the ones of the damaged bearings and bush. I gave them to the dealer when i dropped the car off on saturday. This will give them something to focus on and hopefully steer them in a positive direction. Good luck.
Eddie
BobbyK said:
Nice work Eddie. Pleasantly amazed on such a quick result, pays to do your homework
Expect an invoice for £2.5k for the wash/valet...
That reminds me that when I recommended the OP tries Scothalls that I forgot to say they are truly awful at washing cars so always turn down the valet offer Expect an invoice for £2.5k for the wash/valet...
thegreatdogwood said:
That reminds me that when I recommended the OP tries Scothalls that I forgot to say they are truly awful at washing cars so always turn down the valet offer
Same as my local dealer then. Might be a tad rude if I turned them down seeing as they have just saved me some serious cash. Rough with the smooth there me thinks.Had a chat at my local dealer.. Seemed to concur that it might be the guide bush, however wont know etc etc.. However, I was a little perturbed that the Master Tech was adamant it was a dual clutch unit & that the guide bush & bearing were dry parts..? Really?
Maybe you should PM me your service advisor details as well Eddie, as it might be worth a trip to make sure the people dealing with it know whats what! Although, what are BMWUK gonna think when they see a 'clutch' of identical claims appearing at the same dealership!
Maybe you should PM me your service advisor details as well Eddie, as it might be worth a trip to make sure the people dealing with it know whats what! Although, what are BMWUK gonna think when they see a 'clutch' of identical claims appearing at the same dealership!
danjp said:
Had a chat at my local dealer.. Seemed to concur that it might be the guide bush, however wont know etc etc.. However, I was a little perturbed that the Master Tech was adamant it was a dual clutch unit & that the guide bush & bearing were dry parts..? Really?
Maybe you should PM me your service advisor details as well Eddie, as it might be worth a trip to make sure the people dealing with it know whats what! Although, what are BMWUK gonna think when they see a 'clutch' of identical claims appearing at the same dealership!
Dual clutch: No, Twin Plate Clutch: Yes! The bush should most definately need to be greased to allow the bearing to move freely. I'll PM you my mans details. I wouldnt worry too much about having 2 claims from the same dealer, it'll just go to prove that they know what they are looking for and might even result in a recall. Maybe you should PM me your service advisor details as well Eddie, as it might be worth a trip to make sure the people dealing with it know whats what! Although, what are BMWUK gonna think when they see a 'clutch' of identical claims appearing at the same dealership!
Didnt get my car back today as they are waiting for a couple of parts to come in but all going well i'll be back in the M this time tomorrow. Got withdrawl symptoms.
Eddie
Got the car back this afternoon and all is well. The handover was seemless and the staff were very helpfull and attentive. They ran me through the sequence of events and the obvious issue with the bearing and bush. Everything made sense and they were only too pleased to have had the photos and research info for reference during the job. I repaid their hospitality with some lager as promised and off i went.
To compare the gear shifts before and after the new clutch and fly is very easy. Asside from the loss of the judder the actual shifts between gear are now absolutely flawless. No jerking, clunking, clicking or any feeling of mechanical engagment. The 30 mile drive home was very pleasant and i made full use of every setting to compare the old and new. In a nutshell its a job well done and i'm happy!
I did have a chat with the tech before i left about other owners and the similar issues they were having. His response was, 'not a problem, we like having the work, and at the end of the day BMW are paying for it'! So take it from that comment that they will be working in your faviur rather than just ticking the boxes. He acknowledged that this was now an issue they will recognise in the future and said that if more similar cases appear then they will press BMWUK for a resolution / recall. Result all round there i think.
So, all in i think we got a very good result there. Not just for me, but for anyone else who reads this and has the judder issue. Obviously Scotthall BMW will not just process all these cases as 'warranty jobs' as there are some cars our there that are simply worn out and at the end of the day they have to be honest about their work, but as ive said already they will look for a warranty / goodwill solution before pressing the customer for payment from their own pocket. In my opinion thats a massive weight off any M5/M6 owners shoulders.
On that happy note im off. Thanks for your time and your support,
Eddie
To compare the gear shifts before and after the new clutch and fly is very easy. Asside from the loss of the judder the actual shifts between gear are now absolutely flawless. No jerking, clunking, clicking or any feeling of mechanical engagment. The 30 mile drive home was very pleasant and i made full use of every setting to compare the old and new. In a nutshell its a job well done and i'm happy!
I did have a chat with the tech before i left about other owners and the similar issues they were having. His response was, 'not a problem, we like having the work, and at the end of the day BMW are paying for it'! So take it from that comment that they will be working in your faviur rather than just ticking the boxes. He acknowledged that this was now an issue they will recognise in the future and said that if more similar cases appear then they will press BMWUK for a resolution / recall. Result all round there i think.
So, all in i think we got a very good result there. Not just for me, but for anyone else who reads this and has the judder issue. Obviously Scotthall BMW will not just process all these cases as 'warranty jobs' as there are some cars our there that are simply worn out and at the end of the day they have to be honest about their work, but as ive said already they will look for a warranty / goodwill solution before pressing the customer for payment from their own pocket. In my opinion thats a massive weight off any M5/M6 owners shoulders.
On that happy note im off. Thanks for your time and your support,
Eddie
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