CSL's natural competition

[Beemer-5]

Is what, would you say?
A question asked on New Year's Eve which few present could answer.
Or is it unique?

Over to you sobering up souls.

[nickbell3]

The more i think about that question the more i realise it isn't straight foward. Why? the CSL is so versatile, accomplished and practical. Had mine for nearly 3 years and before i invested in a lovely black 320d i used it for just about everything including shopping, motorway hack, turning up to my clients etc... So... apart from the obvious i would say (for a large chunk of my ownership)it's natural competition is mondeo or vectra!!!!!

[Beemer-5]

So we are looking for cars which don't cost the earth, are very fast, yet useable on a regular (if not everyday, all day) basis, reliable, quick and nimble.

Mitsubishi Evolution FQ360 is one candidate. Drove one last week and was very impressed. Huge mid-range shove and fantastic grip and handling.

[DasChin]

w4nky wheels on the FQ and naff image.

[Beemer-5]

Image is irrelevant. BMWs have got a dire image in some quarters.

The wheels on the Evo 360 are lightweight 17" Speedlines and good enough. They weigh less than the 19s on my car.

[Brainy]

996 Carrera 2? Really interesting comparison in performance, handling, build quality, practicality etc.

RS4 maybe? The Audi is quicker on british B roads and at Santa Pod, not so on any track. Bit soulless to drive?

EVO? I love the useable real world performance & fun factor of Evo's, but sorry, they just dont hack it in other important areas. Build Quality, styling, cabin etc. The drivers seat in the CSL is such a good place to be.

350z? Lovely car, great noise & mega value. Fine on straight road, but lumbering in bends and on track.

If your criteria are simply:

Performance
Handling
Styling & Details (carbon roof, ducktail etc)
Grin factor
Quality
Noise
Useability

There aint much out there that competes with a CSL right now.

Cheears

[paulburrell]

Brainy said:

There aint much out there that competes with a CSL right now.

Maybe a Porsche GT3 MK1 or MK2????? Better build quality, better engine, better noise, better engine, proper gearbox, better handling, more fun to drive, better image, better residuals and much harder to master.

All IMHO of course. No doubt about it though, the CSL is the performance car bargain of the century right now.

[Dave Dax Builder]

I don't think there is anything else for the age/money that has 4 seats and is naturally aspirated. Which kind of makes the CSL the bargain that it is.

[oola]

paulburrell said:

Brainy said:

There aint much out there that competes with a CSL right now.

Maybe a Porsche GT3 MK1 or MK2????? Better build quality, better engine, better noise, better engine, proper gearbox, better handling, more fun to drive, better image, better residuals and much harder to master.

All IMHO of course. No doubt about it though, the CSL is the performance car bargain of the century right now.

Agree with Paul about the 1st part ....

But the rest? Better build quality ... yep .... better engine ... not a chance .... better noise .... thats a joke, right?, proper gearbox .... thats why F1 cars still use a traditional manual shift? .... better handling ... well 13 seconds around the ring quicker than a Mk1 GT3 isnt insignificant .... more fun to drive .... I'll call that a draw .... better image .... agreed ..... better residuals .... without doubt the GT3 wins there ..... much harder to master .... so is poking sticks at wild animals playing with wildlife and look what happened to Steve Irwin.

So, I think the GT3 is the only natural competition for the CSL and I love both!

[paulburrell]

oola said:

paulburrell said:

Brainy said:

There aint much out there that competes with a CSL right now.

Maybe a Porsche GT3 MK1 or MK2????? Better build quality, better engine, better noise, better engine, proper gearbox, better handling, more fun to drive, better image, better residuals and much harder to master.

All IMHO of course. No doubt about it though, the CSL is the performance car bargain of the century right now.

Agree with Paul about the 1st part ....

But the rest? Better build quality ... yep .... better engine ... not a chance .... better noise .... thats a joke, right?, proper gearbox .... thats why F1 cars still use a traditional manual shift? .... better handling ... well 13 seconds around the ring quicker than a Mk1 GT3 isnt insignificant .... more fun to drive .... I'll call that a draw .... better image .... agreed ..... better residuals .... without doubt the GT3 wins there ..... much harder to master .... so is poking sticks at wild animals playing with wildlife and look what happened to Steve Irwin.

So, I think the GT3 is the only natural competition for the CSL and I love both!

Jonathan

Nice to see that the old GT3 versus CSL still provokes a response. As for your coments, noise is a subjective thing and having been a passenger in both, the GT3 knocks the bimmer into a cocked hat IMHO. Can't comment about the Ring time because these can only offer a real comparison of speed if the cars being compared are running on the same rubber, with the same driver and with the same track conditions. If the 13 seconds gap was posted meeting those 3 conditions as a comparator then I for one would not dispute your assertion. Somehow I suspect the CSL will have been shod with it's standard MPSC's and the GT3 with Conti's.

As for taming the beast the only thing I have in common with the late Mr Irwin is that we share the same Christian name. Perversely, the joy of the GT3 is knowing that if you do poke it with a sharp stick it will turn around and bite you. The trick is, knowing when to stop poking. This only comes with time and experience and is part of the great thrill of driving a 911 in that you know that to drive it half quickly, you need to know what your limitations are. Can the same be said about the CSL? Personally, if I wanted to drive a machine without a real element of challenge, I would buy a Nissan Skyline and send off for an annual subscription to Max Power.

Like you I would gladly have both cars in my garage if I had the wedge. Personally I cannot see why the CSL rsiduals have fallen through the floor, it can only be an image thing because the product itself is an excellent one. However, anyone who buys a good one now will have got themselves the bargain of a lifetime.

Edited by paulburrell on Saturday 20th January 17:04

[oola]

paulburrell said:

oola said:

paulburrell said:

Brainy said:

There aint much out there that competes with a CSL right now.

Maybe a Porsche GT3 MK1 or MK2????? Better build quality, better engine, better noise, better engine, proper gearbox, better handling, more fun to drive, better image, better residuals and much harder to master.

All IMHO of course. No doubt about it though, the CSL is the performance car bargain of the century right now.

Agree with Paul about the 1st part ....

But the rest? Better build quality ... yep .... better engine ... not a chance .... better noise .... thats a joke, right?, proper gearbox .... thats why F1 cars still use a traditional manual shift? .... better handling ... well 13 seconds around the ring quicker than a Mk1 GT3 isnt insignificant .... more fun to drive .... I'll call that a draw .... better image .... agreed ..... better residuals .... without doubt the GT3 wins there ..... much harder to master .... so is poking sticks at wild animals playing with wildlife and look what happened to Steve Irwin.

So, I think the GT3 is the only natural competition for the CSL and I love both!

Jonathan

Nice to see that the old GT3 versus CSL still provokes a response. As for your coments, noise is a subjective thing and having been a passenger in both, the GT3 knocks the bimmer into a cocked hat IMHO. Can't comment about the Ring time because these can only offer a real comparison of speed if the cars being compared are running on the same rubber, with the same driver and with the same track conditions. If the 13 seconds gap was posted meeting those 3 conditions as a comparator then I for one would not dispute your assertion. Somehow I suspect the CSL will have been shod with it's standard MPSC's and the GT3 with Conti's.

As for taming the beast the only thing I have in common with the late Mr Irwin is that we share the same Christian name. Perversely, the joy of the GT3 is knowing that if you do poke it with a sharp stick it will turn around and bite you. The trick is, knowing when to stop poking. This only comes with time and experience and is part of the great thrill of driving a 911 in that you know that to drive it half quickly, you need to know what your limitations are. Can the same be said about the CSL? Personally, if I wanted to drive a machine without a real element of challenge, I would buy a Nissan Skyline and send off for an annual subscription to Max Power.

Like you I would gladly have both cars in my garage if I had the wedge. Personally I cannot see why the CSL rsiduals have fallen through the floor, it can only be an image thing because the product itself is an excellent one. However, anyone who buys a good one now will have got themselves the bargain of a lifetime.

Edited by paulburrell on Saturday 20th January 17:04

Steve,

I think the CSL Vs GT3 debate will be eternal! They're both excellent road/track weapons, so there is a 'right' answer. The noise is subjective and although I think the GT3 sounds sublime, personally, I love the hard-edged scream of the CSL on full chat .... the first experience from inside the car still sticks in my mind...

The residuals can only be blamed on BMW ... the initial price was possibly inflated, but the speculators didn't help and £60k was after all expensive for a 3 series. Now, as you said earlier, its the performance car of the decade.

The Ring time was for the Mk1, where as the Mk3 is around 4 seconds off the CSL, and yes, I would be pretty sure that the CSL was on MPCS's. I quote the Ring times as both cars were honed there and are well and truly at home.

As for future prices of the CSL, they seemed to have stablized just north of £30k and I can't see much movement below this!

[nickbell3]

Dude

For me your statement sums up the CSL in a nutshell...."the first experience from the inside the car still sticks in my mind".

[ChrisW.]

So here's the thing.

If BMW had priced the CSL at £50k (--- instead of £45k and 100 cars, £50k and 200 cars, --- oh we've changed our mind, £58k and 400+ cars --- and by the way, most will be on Cup tyres and we'll start delivery in ... October. Ooops, what a surprise by the following March that there was a massive oversupply of cars and the price was in freefall, with dealers trying to bail out of pre-registered stock at £45k per unit)--- the car would have been a massive success.

And at £35k for an 18 month old secondhand car, who would have complained ?

As it is, they have sustained massive brand damage --- and I was one of the poor souls who lost £23k in 18 months. Actually, there are only 150 of us, which is the magnitude of BMW's miscalculation.

Secondhand M3CS's are worth more than CSL's --- now what does that say ?

[ChrisW.]

P.S. RS4 and GT3.

RS4 if you want an even better fast and prestigeous four / five seater.

GT3 is you want an even more robust, charismatic, enguaging track machine.

M5 or M6, --- please excuse me for not touching them with a barge pole.

Anyway, they break gearboxes and the electronics are following in Mercedes footsteps.

[billy83]

Chris, good lad... I see you have a Trophy in your garage... superb car! Definately prefer the CSL, had the most amazing trackday last weekend chasing down a brand new GT3RS but on the road there is no better car than the Trophy for smiles per mile. Love it!

[phatgixer]

OI Billy, read your email...

Edited by phatgixer on Monday 22 January 00:09

[adamb]

billy83 said:

Chris, good lad... I see you have a Trophy in your garage... superb car! Definately prefer the CSL, had the most amazing trackday last weekend chasing down a brand new GT3RS but on the road there is no better car than the Trophy for smiles per mile. Love it!

Have seriously been thinking about getting one of these as well to keep some of the mileage off the CSL.. My first car was the original 172 and have had a soft spot for Clios ever since! Love the look of the Trophy.

[vpr]

You guys keep comparing the GT3 with the CSL which is fair to a point.......That is until you try and squeeze people into the back of the GT3.

I'm sure for many of us that's why the CSL stays....As for noise and gearbox the CSL wins hands down, for me these are the most entertaining elements over the GT3.

My 997 GT3RS arrives in March so maybe I'll change my mind on the noise thing......Even so the CSL is going nowhere.

[Dave Dax Builder]

ChrisW. said:

Secondhand M3CS's are worth more than CSL's --- now what does that say ?

..They are newer?
Many CS owners have been convinced by the BMW dealers that the car is everything the CSL is an more when if fact the CS is just an end of line "special".

Edited by Dave Dax Builder on Monday 22 January 10:27

[billy83]

'Gixer mate, don't think i got any emails... what's your email address and when did you send it?