Toyo Proxes T1R - always this bad?
Discussion
The effect a 55 profile tyre has when replacing a 50 will be proportional to the rim width its fitted to. My old sprint car on 195/50x15s gained seconds per lap by a shift to a 7" rim from a 6" one due to restricting sidewall movement. It gained a lot again by shifting to a 215/40 x 16 on an 8" rim, with a nice open tread avoid the footprint going up too much and reducing weight on the ground.
The consequent step up in sidewall control was huge, with lap times to match. Your car on 55s would need very high tyre pressure to even begin to combat the sidewall movement on the same rim, absolutely no doubt you have the wrong tyre and are critisizing its manufacturer inappropriately when the issue is in fact poor tyre choice
The consequent step up in sidewall control was huge, with lap times to match. Your car on 55s would need very high tyre pressure to even begin to combat the sidewall movement on the same rim, absolutely no doubt you have the wrong tyre and are critisizing its manufacturer inappropriately when the issue is in fact poor tyre choice
Edited by Flatinfourth on Saturday 27th September 08:21
50 profile sidewall would be 98mm. 55 profile would be 107mm.
While I agree that it certainly wouldn't help, especially on tyres known to have soft sidewalls, it shouldn't be enough to make them feel crap compared to 50 profile. It might be though that with 50 profile we get higher load tyres (XL marked) and at 55 they don't. I don't know.
I suspect this is an alignment problem though and the old tyres masked the problem. New tyres always highlight alignment issues whatever is fitted but especially when moving to v groove directional tyres.
While I agree that it certainly wouldn't help, especially on tyres known to have soft sidewalls, it shouldn't be enough to make them feel crap compared to 50 profile. It might be though that with 50 profile we get higher load tyres (XL marked) and at 55 they don't. I don't know.
I suspect this is an alignment problem though and the old tyres masked the problem. New tyres always highlight alignment issues whatever is fitted but especially when moving to v groove directional tyres.
I checked about an alignment setup a while back, but I never got around to getting it done. I'll see if I can sort it at some point soon.
About the old tyres "masking" the problem - (ignoring the fact that the Champiros feel razor-sharp in comparison when changing direction) they have the ability to stop to car far far better than the Toyos can manage, even on a wet road they could stop it like i'd hit a wall, whereas the Toyos lock the fronts at the anything above moderate pressure on a bone-dry road.
The car has always handled really well as far as I can tell, it feels almost identical to both the 1992 1.6s I had before, so unless all 3 cars had the exact same alignment issues then it's likely they were all setup OK, probably not perfectly, but OK enough that there are no nasty handling traits.
Even if the alignment is out, the Champiros still have a far better ability to stop the car and corner than the Toyos do, and if the Toyos are *that* dependent upon the setup to have any grip at all even in a straight line, then that doesn't strike me as a particularly good tyre for every day use - every time I would run over a pothole (which lets face it is pretty much unavoidable nowadays) I'll be wondering if the alignment is messed up again and the tyre is back to having no braking ability.
Next time I swap tyres then I will go to a 50 sidewall as I had no idea that 55 was not the right size for that rim, but I dont really want to throw away 2 more perfectly good tyres for the sake of about 9mm.
About the old tyres "masking" the problem - (ignoring the fact that the Champiros feel razor-sharp in comparison when changing direction) they have the ability to stop to car far far better than the Toyos can manage, even on a wet road they could stop it like i'd hit a wall, whereas the Toyos lock the fronts at the anything above moderate pressure on a bone-dry road.
The car has always handled really well as far as I can tell, it feels almost identical to both the 1992 1.6s I had before, so unless all 3 cars had the exact same alignment issues then it's likely they were all setup OK, probably not perfectly, but OK enough that there are no nasty handling traits.
Even if the alignment is out, the Champiros still have a far better ability to stop the car and corner than the Toyos do, and if the Toyos are *that* dependent upon the setup to have any grip at all even in a straight line, then that doesn't strike me as a particularly good tyre for every day use - every time I would run over a pothole (which lets face it is pretty much unavoidable nowadays) I'll be wondering if the alignment is messed up again and the tyre is back to having no braking ability.
Next time I swap tyres then I will go to a 50 sidewall as I had no idea that 55 was not the right size for that rim, but I dont really want to throw away 2 more perfectly good tyres for the sake of about 9mm.
MX-5 Lazza said:
Running 55 profile won't be the problem. As you say, the difference in tyre wall in small.
Totally disagree. 10mm or so extra sidewall is definately noticeable especially on the T1R. It will cause some nasty unwanted characteristics as are being felt by the OP.MX-5 Lazza said:
Also, tyre size makes no difference to pressure .
Errrmm Yes it certainly does.Flatinfourth said:
The consequent step up in sidewall control was huge, with lap times to match. Your car on 55s would need very high tyre pressure to even begin to combat the sidewall movement on the same rim, absolutely no doubt you have the wrong tyre and are critisizing its manufacturer inappropriately when the issue is in fact poor tyre choice
Exactly. Edited by rb5er on Saturday 27th September 09:43
rb5er said:
MX-5 Lazza said:
Running 55 profile won't be the problem. As you say, the difference in tyre wall in small.
Totally disagree. 10mm or so extra sidewall is definately noticeable especially on the T1R. It will cause some nasty unwanted characteristics as are being felt by the OP.MX-5 Lazza said:
Also, tyre size makes no difference to pressure .
Errrmm Yes it certainly does.Flatinfourth said:
The consequent step up in sidewall control was huge, with lap times to match. Your car on 55s would need very high tyre pressure to even begin to combat the sidewall movement on the same rim, absolutely no doubt you have the wrong tyre and are critisizing its manufacturer inappropriately when the issue is in fact poor tyre choice
Exactly. Edited by rb5er on Saturday 27th September 09:43
A narrow rim, with a nice tall sidewall, especially on the front would keep the car's original nice characteristics, too wide will make it a bit too darty.
Edited by Flatinfourth on Saturday 27th September 11:16
rb5er said:
MX-5 Lazza said:
Running 55 profile won't be the problem. As you say, the difference in tyre wall in small.
Totally disagree. 10mm or so extra sidewall is definately noticeable especially on the T1R. It will cause some nasty unwanted characteristics as are being felt by the OP.MX-5 Lazza said:
Also, tyre size makes no difference to pressure .
Errrmm Yes it certainly does.Flatinfourth said:
The consequent step up in sidewall control was huge, with lap times to match. Your car on 55s would need very high tyre pressure to even begin to combat the sidewall movement on the same rim, absolutely no doubt you have the wrong tyre and are critisizing its manufacturer inappropriately when the issue is in fact poor tyre choice
Exactly. Edited by rb5er on Saturday 27th September 09:43
So, what pressure should it be run at? I'm quite willing to give it a try at higher pressures than 31 and see what happens.
Theres no point just stating that its the wrong tyre for the car and all the problems stem from that - it must be designed for some vehicles so what would happen if I just move the rims over to a car that runs 55s as standard? The handling quality and soft sidewalls are not going to magically change just because the rim is on a different car.
This 55 tyre is on a rim that fits the big hole in the middle, beyond that I can't see how anything about it being an 1 ton MX5 at the other end of the wheelbolts and not a 1 ton VW or an old Pug 205 or whatever will affect the total lack of grip and soft sidewalls.
Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 27th September 12:51
Right I've taken the plunge and ordered a full set of 4 brand new 195 50 15s, to be fitted next Saturday. Hopefully then I can enjoy driving the car again. I'm not telling you what brand as then I'll get told they're crap or something 
They're not Toyos though.
I'll keep the Champiros as spares, not sure what to do with the Toyos, perhaps use them as planters in the garden...
They're not Toyos though.I'll keep the Champiros as spares, not sure what to do with the Toyos, perhaps use them as planters in the garden...
MX-5 Lazza said:
They certainly aren't shockingly bad and won't ruin any MX5. On a heavier car maybe.
AD08s might well be a fair bit better but that's not comparing like-for-like. A set of 195/50/15 can be had for £150 which is around the price of 1 AD08.
I've had Dunlop SP2000, Yoko A509/520, Bridgestone S02/SO3, Goodyear F1 GSD2/GSD3, Michelin PS2 and now running Toyo T1R. Of those the Bridgestone S02 was the best. The GSD3 and T1R are on a par with each other, the GSD3 being slightly better in the wet and T1R better dry, both being bad on cold roads. Mixing a pair of one with a pair of another always made it feel bad, regardless of what they were so I always make sure I change all my tyres as a set of 4.
Well my self and a lot of other people have experienced massive differences, the car was chalk and cheese on GDS3's to the Toyos back to back. I too always swap 4 at a time and the AD08's are way more expensive but the Toyos were so bad I was more than willing to pay to get them off. Still got them in the garage with barely 2k on them.AD08s might well be a fair bit better but that's not comparing like-for-like. A set of 195/50/15 can be had for £150 which is around the price of 1 AD08.
I've had Dunlop SP2000, Yoko A509/520, Bridgestone S02/SO3, Goodyear F1 GSD2/GSD3, Michelin PS2 and now running Toyo T1R. Of those the Bridgestone S02 was the best. The GSD3 and T1R are on a par with each other, the GSD3 being slightly better in the wet and T1R better dry, both being bad on cold roads. Mixing a pair of one with a pair of another always made it feel bad, regardless of what they were so I always make sure I change all my tyres as a set of 4.
I wonder what is actually happening here? Could it be production issues? It's surely not possible for me to spank a set to within an inch of their life, at high speeds, for over an hour and have no issues at all and yet someone else suggests they could hardly turn the first corner they happened across and that they keep locking up even under medium braking.What IS the problem? How can the reviews be so night and day?
Digby said:
I wonder what is actually happening here?
JimSuperSix said:
I checked about an alignment setup a while back, but I never got around to getting it done. I'll see if I can sort it at some point soon.
Until the alignment has been checked there isn't really a discussion to be had as we have no idea what state the car is in. He's spending £200 to get rid of the tyres when he could have spent nothing just getting the alignment checked (and then maybe £100 to get it corrected if it's out which I think it will be). Hey ho, it's not my car or my money.Yes yes, I know you're convinced the alignment must be so far out that the tyre can't even stop in a straight line, but seeing as the car handles what I would consider to be perfectly on all the other tyres its had (and feels identical to my two previous mk1s) I find it unlikely that an alignment would change it that much.
It's also not going to change that terrible vague feeling you get as the sidewalls flex around, and unless I run the tyres rock-solid at 50PSI or something daft it seems that it just a characteristic of the tyre, and one that I don't like at all, whether the tyres on are on the front or the rear.
It's also not going to change that terrible vague feeling you get as the sidewalls flex around, and unless I run the tyres rock-solid at 50PSI or something daft it seems that it just a characteristic of the tyre, and one that I don't like at all, whether the tyres on are on the front or the rear.
I'm not suggesting that all your problems are cause by the alignment (though I am sure that at least some of them are) but unless you know the alignment is correct it's impossible to know what is being caused by the alignment, by the tyres, by other factors etc. At the moment we are working blind. All we know for sure is...
- The vast majority of MX5 owners are happy with T1R
- You are not happy with yours
- Your tyre size isn't correct
- You don't know what your alignment condition is
The one thing on that list that is quick and simple to address is the alignment. If you don't get any changes made most places will even do the initial check for free!
Look around on various MX5 forums and you will find plenty of people who have thought MX5s handling wasn't really that great and they didn't know what all the fuss was about, then they got the alignment done and they are amazed at the transformation. There aren't that many mainstream cars that are adjustable at the front for toe, camber & caster and the rear for toe and camber and having these set badly can cause any number of problems. Add to that that most owners don't bother to get theirs set and you get the main reason why we so many posts about handling issues on forums. Mine is reset every 24 months (ish, more often if I use it on track more) and it's surprising how far out it goes in that time for a fairly low-mileage car (75k in 13 years).
- The vast majority of MX5 owners are happy with T1R
- You are not happy with yours
- Your tyre size isn't correct
- You don't know what your alignment condition is
The one thing on that list that is quick and simple to address is the alignment. If you don't get any changes made most places will even do the initial check for free!
Look around on various MX5 forums and you will find plenty of people who have thought MX5s handling wasn't really that great and they didn't know what all the fuss was about, then they got the alignment done and they are amazed at the transformation. There aren't that many mainstream cars that are adjustable at the front for toe, camber & caster and the rear for toe and camber and having these set badly can cause any number of problems. Add to that that most owners don't bother to get theirs set and you get the main reason why we so many posts about handling issues on forums. Mine is reset every 24 months (ish, more often if I use it on track more) and it's surprising how far out it goes in that time for a fairly low-mileage car (75k in 13 years).
The difference is though that I wasn't one of those people who wondered what all the fuss was about - my MX5 handled superbly until the Toyos went on. Even if the alignment fixed some of the Toyo's problems, I couldn't live with the other problems such as the soft sidewalls and resulting vagueness and rubbery feel.
Anyway, hopefully these new tyres will sort it all out, if not then an alignment will be the next thing to do.
Anyway, hopefully these new tyres will sort it all out, if not then an alignment will be the next thing to do.
I have toyo t1rs on my mx5. This weekend I double drove it with a mechanic mate at an autosolo. We did a little experiment with the tyre pressures. The toyos are massively sensitive to pressure due to the soft sidewall.
Cold pressure of 31 front and 30 at the rear was spot on for feel and handling. After my runs the tyres had warmed up and then when my mate ,D_G on here, drove the car in his first and second run he was saying the handling was wayward.
We checked the pressure and they had gone up to 36 due to the heat.
Dropped them to 31 front and 30 rear and he knocked two seconds off his time.
As I said the sidewalls are really soft, having 55 profile would mean higher pressures would be required for the same level of control but not too high as they would be crap. You would need to experiment to find the optimum pressure.
Cold pressure of 31 front and 30 at the rear was spot on for feel and handling. After my runs the tyres had warmed up and then when my mate ,D_G on here, drove the car in his first and second run he was saying the handling was wayward.
We checked the pressure and they had gone up to 36 due to the heat.
Dropped them to 31 front and 30 rear and he knocked two seconds off his time.
As I said the sidewalls are really soft, having 55 profile would mean higher pressures would be required for the same level of control but not too high as they would be crap. You would need to experiment to find the optimum pressure.
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