Toyo Proxes T1R - always this bad?
Discussion
I had some T1Rs on my mk1 MX5, in both 195/60R14 and 195/50R15. I've also had them on an RX7 and a 3-series (225/45R17 on both cars) and on my S1 Elise (195/50R15 and 225/45R16).
Dry cornering grip when new was terrible on all of them - the tall narrow tread blocks in the middle of the tyre bend over when loaded from the side (with a bit of hard use you can actually see the tread blocks wearing the corners off). When they are half worn this doesn't happen, and they work just like any other cheap tyre. The T1Rs used in the old MX5 race series were scrubbed down to a few mm.
I won't buy them new and only put up with them if they are already fitted to a car when I buy it.
Dry cornering grip when new was terrible on all of them - the tall narrow tread blocks in the middle of the tyre bend over when loaded from the side (with a bit of hard use you can actually see the tread blocks wearing the corners off). When they are half worn this doesn't happen, and they work just like any other cheap tyre. The T1Rs used in the old MX5 race series were scrubbed down to a few mm.
I won't buy them new and only put up with them if they are already fitted to a car when I buy it.
I have T1Rs in 195/50 over an 8J rim at 32PSI and theyre fine, my third set on an MX5.
I had Falkens on before which were a great tyre with lots of feedback. I dont get the same feeling I got through the wheel now but do have more outright grip in both the wet and dry. I always give new tyres a good kicking for a couple of days too. Id also agree alignment is very important.
I had Falkens on before which were a great tyre with lots of feedback. I dont get the same feeling I got through the wheel now but do have more outright grip in both the wet and dry. I always give new tyres a good kicking for a couple of days too. Id also agree alignment is very important.
My alignment is always in good fettle (right next to WiM) and i found the toyos to be a decent all rounder but agree with the slightly soft sidewalls. They didn't ever feel like they were lacking however in wet or dry.
Currently running yoko parada2's and they are downright dangerous in the wet. I had an unexpected sideways moment on a wet service station slip lane bend getting onto the m25 this week, which although hilarious was unexpected. They were good on track when they were nice and warm very difficult to lock up. Not a good all rounder.
I tend to run all my tyres at 28 psi.
very tempted to try something less obvious next.
Currently running yoko parada2's and they are downright dangerous in the wet. I had an unexpected sideways moment on a wet service station slip lane bend getting onto the m25 this week, which although hilarious was unexpected. They were good on track when they were nice and warm very difficult to lock up. Not a good all rounder.
I tend to run all my tyres at 28 psi.
very tempted to try something less obvious next.
No update on whether the new tyres are better yet - it was raining so hard on Saturday that I just collected them in my normal car and will get them fitted later, so they're currently sat in the garage piled on top of the mx5.
Probably it will be a few weeks now before I get the chance though which is annoying but I'll try to remember to post here to say whether or not they've made the car handle and stop properly again or whether an alignment etc.. is needed.
Probably it will be a few weeks now before I get the chance though which is annoying but I'll try to remember to post here to say whether or not they've made the car handle and stop properly again or whether an alignment etc.. is needed.
J-Tuner said:
Currently running yoko parada2's and they are downright dangerous in the wet.
I've had a few Yoko summer tyres in the past and they are always very good on dry roads and usually on the track but are also always very poor on wet roads, especially when it starts getting colder.Shame it's not possible to get the old Bridgestone S02 (discontinued long ago) as they were brilliant on MX5s with perfect levels of grip dry or wet, stiff sidewalls, not too expensive (around the same price as Goodyear F1) and they didn't melt on track. The S03 which replaced them were slightly harder and stiffer which worked well on track and probably worked on heavier cars but MX5s are just too light to work them hard enough for them to work. Not sure what the latest equivalent would be.
An update on the new tyres finally, having had them fitted today as it was sunny and warm for the first time in ages.
They are Kumho Ecstas and are R50s rather than the R55s I had before. I've only done about 20kms so far but first impressions are excellent - having swapped the Toyos between both ends of the car the difference on the new tyres is quite marked - the turn in feels sharp again and the vague floaty rear end that the Toyos gave when they were on the rear is gone.
Also dry braking seems hugely improved, despite the tyres being brand new - I did a couple of hard stops and it pulls up hard enough to make it physically uncomfortable and without any sign of the tyres locking.
I still think the Champiros gave the best feel to the front end in terms of direction change, but its early days on these so I'll see how they go.
All are set to 26 psi at the moment.
They are Kumho Ecstas and are R50s rather than the R55s I had before. I've only done about 20kms so far but first impressions are excellent - having swapped the Toyos between both ends of the car the difference on the new tyres is quite marked - the turn in feels sharp again and the vague floaty rear end that the Toyos gave when they were on the rear is gone.
Also dry braking seems hugely improved, despite the tyres being brand new - I did a couple of hard stops and it pulls up hard enough to make it physically uncomfortable and without any sign of the tyres locking.
I still think the Champiros gave the best feel to the front end in terms of direction change, but its early days on these so I'll see how they go.
All are set to 26 psi at the moment.
Good that you are happier on the new rubber, I had champiros on my old 200sx when I bought it and they seemed a fairly hard compound and didn't drive too badly at all. I would rate them better than Pirelli p6000's. They are hands down the worst tyre I have had. I have 4 on my s3 Quattro at the moment and it wanted to aquaplane badly on the m1 the other week and to slow to a crawl to keep it safe.
Might try the kuhmos or federals next on my 5 but I never seem to run out of rubber despite doing track days! The alignments too good I think lol
Might try the kuhmos or federals next on my 5 but I never seem to run out of rubber despite doing track days! The alignments too good I think lol
There is a formula to calculate the recommended tyre pressure.
Pressure = Tyre Max Pressure x ((Gross Axle Weight Rating/2)/Tyre Max Load)
The Max Pressure and Max Load are on the side wall of the tyres.
The Gross Axle Weight Rating should be on a door sticker.
It'll be interesting to see what figures you get for both your new tyres and the Toyos based on the calculation above.
Pressure = Tyre Max Pressure x ((Gross Axle Weight Rating/2)/Tyre Max Load)
The Max Pressure and Max Load are on the side wall of the tyres.
The Gross Axle Weight Rating should be on a door sticker.
It'll be interesting to see what figures you get for both your new tyres and the Toyos based on the calculation above.
Edited by VladD on Tuesday 7th April 13:21
Quite a difference in the stability of the car in that video, it looked very wayward and unpredictable on the Toyos with poor braking performance, and looked like he didn't trust the tyre at all from the way he had to drive, all in all fairly similar to the issues that I found.
I'm sure the Kumho is not the ultimate tyre you can get in terms of outright grip or whatever but judging from that video and in terms of what I've felt driving the car on it so far it feels like a huge step up from the Toyos. Hopefully they will get even better as they wear in a bit. As I said I still think the Champiros were sharper, but they were well worn in and I'd done a lot of miles on them whereas these Kumhos are brand new, so I need more time to get a feel for them.
I'm sure the Kumho is not the ultimate tyre you can get in terms of outright grip or whatever but judging from that video and in terms of what I've felt driving the car on it so far it feels like a huge step up from the Toyos. Hopefully they will get even better as they wear in a bit. As I said I still think the Champiros were sharper, but they were well worn in and I'd done a lot of miles on them whereas these Kumhos are brand new, so I need more time to get a feel for them.
That's track driving. It bares little relevance to road driving. For example, on our old track car we had Avon ZV3 which were superb on track. They are nowhere near as good on the road. T1R are well known to melt on track and its easy to see in that vid that the tyres are overheating. That's not a problem on the road.
MX-5 Lazza said:
That's track driving. It bares little relevance to road driving. For example, on our old track car we had Avon ZV3 which were superb on track. They are nowhere near as good on the road. T1R are well known to melt on track and its easy to see in that vid that the tyres are overheating. That's not a problem on the road.
Laza, it was specifically not about track driving, you could not be more wrong about the tyre over heating, 5 laps of a wet Rockingham will not melt tyres. The whole point is very, very much about road driving. The video has come about because someone dared to suggest on a MX-5 forum that Toyo were not the tyre to fit, within in minutes they were told that they were wronger than a wrong thing in wrong gravy and that the wonderful T1R was all they needed any type of driving they could ever consider doing. They are snappy, imprecise and give no feedback about what they are going to do and perform nowhere near as well as the T1S that went before them. The point is very much about road driving, Tarzan is like any roundabout in the county and Chapman and Pif Paf are any fast bends on an A Road. It wan't even trying that hard. Nickjd said:
rb5er said:
Totally disagree, and certainly not snappy.
okey dokeyThe only faults I find with them are indeed the soft sidewalls which can give a slightly soft feeling on the limit but still nice and progressive and let you know whats going on.
I can compare them to Michelin PS2`s, Goodyear Assymetric 2`s, Conti Contact 2`s, Kumho KU31`s and Falken 452`s and 453`s (all decent tyres in order of how I personally would rate them) and in this company they are not lacking in performance imo, and I would happily put them right in the middle of that bunch.
I'm not here to argue with anyone, you pay you money and you take your choice. What does genuinely fascinate me is the almost religious following for this tyre, it is very Apple like. The OP describes what is a pretty well documented set of characteristics for this tyre, summed up by Captain Muppet above, and yet the response is that it can't possibly be the tyre, the profile is wrong, the car must be at fault, put up to 30% more than the recommended tyre pressure for the car to compensate because you must be wrong. And that is just such a typical response to this type of post. The "soft sidewall" is always blamed and yet what is a soft sidewall? Michelin and Continental tyres can all but be turned inside out, they are so thin and floppy. The sidewall of a tyre adds very little if anything to the stiffness of a road tyre, let the air out of just about any tyre and you will be running on the rim. The sidewall is effectively a cloth belt which in basic terms stops the side wall bursting from the air pressure inside, It does not support the weight of the car and certainly does not resist the loads induced under cornering other than due to the air inside. Curb a tyre, split that cloth belt and see how much the couple of mm of rubber adds in stiffness to the tyre. It is like asking a bed sheet to give stiffness, there is none. The performance comes from the tread design, the shoulder strength and rubber characteristics.
As the OP found, it is not the tyre that the internet wants to tell him it is. All the alignment, extra PSI and saying it is the wrong profile is not going to change his findings.
As the OP found, it is not the tyre that the internet wants to tell him it is. All the alignment, extra PSI and saying it is the wrong profile is not going to change his findings.
I'm certainly not going to disagree with you Nick. I've known you too long and know that you know what you are talking about with tyres. Good to see you on here by the way 
With regards to the OP... He did come on saying that the tyres must be rubbish but wouldn't accept that there might be another issue at work such as poor alignment. I'm not a T1R fan as such, I have had better tyres (Bridgestone S02 and Goodyear F1 GSD2/3 for example) but have also had worse (Dunlop S2000, Yoko 509/520, Pirelli PS2 - just a pair on the rear with GSD3 on the front). The T1R seems to sit somewhere between them. On the road in my experience I've never noticed any odd handling characteristics. Mine are 205/40/17 so maybe the lower profile or extra inch width make a difference. Or maybe I just drive within the limits of the tyres... I do push them a bit but generally drive like a granny when it's wet.
If I could I'd go back to the Bridgstone S02. They were the best I've had on an MX5. Sadly replaced with S03 which is nowhere near as good on a lightweight car. Failing that the GSD3 but these have gone too.
When if first got my Mk2.5 it had T1S and it handled pretty much like the OP described. The tyres were showing signs of ageing though with crack on the sidewalls and particularly between the tread-blocks so I replaced them with GSD3 while still only half worn.
With regards to the OP... He did come on saying that the tyres must be rubbish but wouldn't accept that there might be another issue at work such as poor alignment. I'm not a T1R fan as such, I have had better tyres (Bridgestone S02 and Goodyear F1 GSD2/3 for example) but have also had worse (Dunlop S2000, Yoko 509/520, Pirelli PS2 - just a pair on the rear with GSD3 on the front). The T1R seems to sit somewhere between them. On the road in my experience I've never noticed any odd handling characteristics. Mine are 205/40/17 so maybe the lower profile or extra inch width make a difference. Or maybe I just drive within the limits of the tyres... I do push them a bit but generally drive like a granny when it's wet.
If I could I'd go back to the Bridgstone S02. They were the best I've had on an MX5. Sadly replaced with S03 which is nowhere near as good on a lightweight car. Failing that the GSD3 but these have gone too.
When if first got my Mk2.5 it had T1S and it handled pretty much like the OP described. The tyres were showing signs of ageing though with crack on the sidewalls and particularly between the tread-blocks so I replaced them with GSD3 while still only half worn.
Dunno where my last reply went....
I've had T-R's and T1-S's on my MX5, the only reason I went for either was price. They used to be considerably cheaper than everything else. For the price point they couldn't be beaten IMO.
Personally I didn't find them any snappier than other tyres i've tried so far, (Yoko Prada's and Marangoni Zeta Lina's, the former were bloody entertaining in the wet), but then I'm probably not nuanced enough to tell the difference.
I feel like trying Bridgestone Potenza RE002's next just because. I've also read that they're harder wearing than Toyo's on the track, which if i ever get back to will be a big plus point.
I enjoyed the video you posted Nick, though I will say that whilst i'm sure the Khumo's gripped better, and I believe you when you say they provide better feedback and breakaway, the Toyo's certainly looked much more entertaining on the limit.
I'm no driving god by any measure, but at the last trackday i went to, (with barely legal Toyo's), it was very wet, I was overtaking some much more powerful, (and 4wd), stuff, I was also keeping up with a couple of MAX5 race cars in attendance.
I'm pretty sure that's why Rodders decided to let me have a go of his race car, such a shame I let myself down and crashed the damn thing <facepalm>
I've had T-R's and T1-S's on my MX5, the only reason I went for either was price. They used to be considerably cheaper than everything else. For the price point they couldn't be beaten IMO.
Personally I didn't find them any snappier than other tyres i've tried so far, (Yoko Prada's and Marangoni Zeta Lina's, the former were bloody entertaining in the wet), but then I'm probably not nuanced enough to tell the difference.
I feel like trying Bridgestone Potenza RE002's next just because. I've also read that they're harder wearing than Toyo's on the track, which if i ever get back to will be a big plus point.
I enjoyed the video you posted Nick, though I will say that whilst i'm sure the Khumo's gripped better, and I believe you when you say they provide better feedback and breakaway, the Toyo's certainly looked much more entertaining on the limit.
I'm no driving god by any measure, but at the last trackday i went to, (with barely legal Toyo's), it was very wet, I was overtaking some much more powerful, (and 4wd), stuff, I was also keeping up with a couple of MAX5 race cars in attendance.
I'm pretty sure that's why Rodders decided to let me have a go of his race car, such a shame I let myself down and crashed the damn thing <facepalm>
I thought about if to reply or not. I didn't post and I didn't make the video to convince people to buy Kumho, I made it to make the point the Toyo T1R are not the great tyre that the internet tells you it is.
I don't expect to convert people people who think the Toyo is great, I thought Nokia was great until I got an Android phone. If you are happy with what you have that is not for me to tell you otherwise and what makes a great tyre is down to what you want from it. I made it to give a counter point for the people who are continually told that the T1R is great. I read it all the time, "I am told I should fit T1R," this thread is almost a text book example of how it goes.
Again, it is not about which is easier to get the back out with, Marangoni and Parada are hardly shining examples of competent tyres either, but about not getting the back end out. For the average driver, their first experience of a skid or slide is about 2 seconds before they hit something hard. For most, if the rear lets go like in the video then they will spin and the consequences of that will depend on what is around them. Of course you can spin a car on any tyre in any conditions if you try hard enough, the point is, you really don't have to try with the T1R.
By the way, ask Rodders what he thinks of them.
I don't expect to convert people people who think the Toyo is great, I thought Nokia was great until I got an Android phone. If you are happy with what you have that is not for me to tell you otherwise and what makes a great tyre is down to what you want from it. I made it to give a counter point for the people who are continually told that the T1R is great. I read it all the time, "I am told I should fit T1R," this thread is almost a text book example of how it goes.
Again, it is not about which is easier to get the back out with, Marangoni and Parada are hardly shining examples of competent tyres either, but about not getting the back end out. For the average driver, their first experience of a skid or slide is about 2 seconds before they hit something hard. For most, if the rear lets go like in the video then they will spin and the consequences of that will depend on what is around them. Of course you can spin a car on any tyre in any conditions if you try hard enough, the point is, you really don't have to try with the T1R.
By the way, ask Rodders what he thinks of them.
Yes, they are that bad and God help you when it rains. Amazing how advertising can convince people that something is wonderful when it's not and that having spent their money they will not accept that they got scammed and will firmly believe their car now handles better.
For those who are immune to marketing rubbish and, like the OP, can tell the difference Kumho Ecsta's are much better and cheaper.
For those who are immune to marketing rubbish and, like the OP, can tell the difference Kumho Ecsta's are much better and cheaper.
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