ND2 throttle pedal click/detent removal
Discussion
Hello
I've recently purchased an ND2 and was surprised to learn it has a "feature" that I did not see mentioned in any of the reviews I read or watched prior to purchase.
The accelerator pedal has a noticeable detent/click in the last few mm of its travel. At first I thought the pedal was getting stuck on a piece of carpet/trim but from reading the manual, it is related to the speed limiter safety feature and allows the driver to override the speed limiter. However, the detent is present at all times, even when the limiter is not active.
I find this detent extremely annoying and makes it feel like the pedal is sticking when I put my foot down. I've not experienced anything other than a smooth pedal right to the stop in any of my previous cars. You can drive around it by being more gentle on the pedal and only pressing it up to the sticking point but it feels unnatural to do that.
I've done some searching but have found a surprising lack of discussion of this "feature" in other forums and absolutely no indication if it's something that can be removed. So that's basically what I'm asking - can it be removed? A throttle pedal from an earlier, pre-speed-limiter car would definitely solve it physically, but unsure if it would cause issues with the car's electronics. The ideal solution would be to simply remove whatever is causing the detent, but I'm unsure what that is.
Would be really grateful for any advice on this as it's spoiling my enjoyment of the car.
I've recently purchased an ND2 and was surprised to learn it has a "feature" that I did not see mentioned in any of the reviews I read or watched prior to purchase.
The accelerator pedal has a noticeable detent/click in the last few mm of its travel. At first I thought the pedal was getting stuck on a piece of carpet/trim but from reading the manual, it is related to the speed limiter safety feature and allows the driver to override the speed limiter. However, the detent is present at all times, even when the limiter is not active.
I find this detent extremely annoying and makes it feel like the pedal is sticking when I put my foot down. I've not experienced anything other than a smooth pedal right to the stop in any of my previous cars. You can drive around it by being more gentle on the pedal and only pressing it up to the sticking point but it feels unnatural to do that.
I've done some searching but have found a surprising lack of discussion of this "feature" in other forums and absolutely no indication if it's something that can be removed. So that's basically what I'm asking - can it be removed? A throttle pedal from an earlier, pre-speed-limiter car would definitely solve it physically, but unsure if it would cause issues with the car's electronics. The ideal solution would be to simply remove whatever is causing the detent, but I'm unsure what that is.
Would be really grateful for any advice on this as it's spoiling my enjoyment of the car.
Edited by swilcock on Wednesday 31st January 22:45
I’ve never noticed this on mine.
Is yours manual or automatic?
This thread throws some light on it for automatics-
https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=678953
Edited to add a screenshot.
This is all new to me.
Is yours manual or automatic?
This thread throws some light on it for automatics-
https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=678953
Edited to add a screenshot.
This is all new to me.
Edited by Scotter on Sunday 4th February 10:36
Thanks for the responses guys. Can confirm my car is a manual. I noticed it about 5 minutes into my first drive without the dealer next to me. Must have a heavy right foot!
I've done a bit more searching around and apparently it is a physical switch in the pedal mechanism that isn't connected to anything electronically so can in theory be removed. Haven't attempted it yet though. Will post an update if/when I do. Still can't get used to it.
I've done a bit more searching around and apparently it is a physical switch in the pedal mechanism that isn't connected to anything electronically so can in theory be removed. Haven't attempted it yet though. Will post an update if/when I do. Still can't get used to it.
Edited by swilcock on Monday 5th February 16:42
That is exactly correct. Whip it out and you're good to go.
Pushing up to the clicker only permits 90% throttle opening, and there is a threshold in the ECU calibration which put the car into Hi Load mode only after 93% throttle.
One of the changes is allowing a richer (correct for high load / rpm) AFR, which in turn gives approx 15bhp extra having tested both back to back. I can only think this is an emissions trick, trying to stop people gping WOT.
Pushing up to the clicker only permits 90% throttle opening, and there is a threshold in the ECU calibration which put the car into Hi Load mode only after 93% throttle.
One of the changes is allowing a richer (correct for high load / rpm) AFR, which in turn gives approx 15bhp extra having tested both back to back. I can only think this is an emissions trick, trying to stop people gping WOT.
AdamR83 said:
That is exactly correct. Whip it out and you're good to go.
Pushing up to the clicker only permits 90% throttle opening, and there is a threshold in the ECU calibration which put the car into Hi Load mode only after 93% throttle.
One of the changes is allowing a richer (correct for high load / rpm) AFR, which in turn gives approx 15bhp extra having tested both back to back. I can only think this is an emissions trick, trying to stop people gping WOT.
Many thanks for that info,interesting to know.Pushing up to the clicker only permits 90% throttle opening, and there is a threshold in the ECU calibration which put the car into Hi Load mode only after 93% throttle.
One of the changes is allowing a richer (correct for high load / rpm) AFR, which in turn gives approx 15bhp extra having tested both back to back. I can only think this is an emissions trick, trying to stop people gping WOT.
I’m not sure if this old fart would benefit with removing the clicker though.
AdamR83 said:
That is exactly correct. Whip it out and you're good to go.
Pushing up to the clicker only permits 90% throttle opening, and there is a threshold in the ECU calibration which put the car into Hi Load mode only after 93% throttle.
One of the changes is allowing a richer (correct for high load / rpm) AFR, which in turn gives approx 15bhp extra having tested both back to back. I can only think this is an emissions trick, trying to stop people gping WOT.
Thank you for the confirmation Adam, though I'm surprised to learn that you only get full power by pressing past the switch. I'm definitely removing it now!Pushing up to the clicker only permits 90% throttle opening, and there is a threshold in the ECU calibration which put the car into Hi Load mode only after 93% throttle.
One of the changes is allowing a richer (correct for high load / rpm) AFR, which in turn gives approx 15bhp extra having tested both back to back. I can only think this is an emissions trick, trying to stop people gping WOT.
What really surprises me though is the lack of mention of this "feature" in any reviews of the ND2 that I've read or watched on YouTube, and on any other forums. It seems like such a glaring oddity/annoyance in what's meant to be a pure and simple sports car!
You're welcome! Happy to dig out and share the data if you like.
It is indeed a bit odd, was quite surprised when I discovered it. I mentioned it on the US forums (miata.net) and they don't seem to have the same "feature".
My best guess is that it's a Euro 6 thing - up until the clicker the car will run at 14.7:1 AFR, after the 93% TPS point it will hit the Hi Load AFR target which is 12.5:1 in the OE map. So those not in the know will be hitting "full throttle" and using a lot less fuel, making average consumption figures less.
It is indeed a bit odd, was quite surprised when I discovered it. I mentioned it on the US forums (miata.net) and they don't seem to have the same "feature".
My best guess is that it's a Euro 6 thing - up until the clicker the car will run at 14.7:1 AFR, after the 93% TPS point it will hit the Hi Load AFR target which is 12.5:1 in the OE map. So those not in the know will be hitting "full throttle" and using a lot less fuel, making average consumption figures less.
AdamR83 said:
You're welcome! Happy to dig out and share the data if you like.
It is indeed a bit odd, was quite surprised when I discovered it. I mentioned it on the US forums (miata.net) and they don't seem to have the same "feature".
My best guess is that it's a Euro 6 thing - up until the clicker the car will run at 14.7:1 AFR, after the 93% TPS point it will hit the Hi Load AFR target which is 12.5:1 in the OE map. So those not in the know will be hitting "full throttle" and using a lot less fuel, making average consumption figures less.
Yes, if you could share the data that would be really interesting. You have to be right about it being an EU emissions thing, it makes perfect sense with it not being a thing on US cars and it seems extremely intrusive for it just to be for the speed limiter override.It is indeed a bit odd, was quite surprised when I discovered it. I mentioned it on the US forums (miata.net) and they don't seem to have the same "feature".
My best guess is that it's a Euro 6 thing - up until the clicker the car will run at 14.7:1 AFR, after the 93% TPS point it will hit the Hi Load AFR target which is 12.5:1 in the OE map. So those not in the know will be hitting "full throttle" and using a lot less fuel, making average consumption figures less.
I'll hopefully have time to tackle the removal of it this weekend. Will post some pics of the process when I do to help out others who are plagued by this little switch!
Sure - here you go. I'll do my best to explain what's going on!
So the data below was collected using VersaTuner. It is mainly aimed at remapping / tuning Mazdas, but has built-in datalogging too. I am one of their approved e-tuners and software resellers.
First image has a 3rd gear pull from 3000-7000rpm highlighted (or as close as I could get, within the resolution of the data). Important things to note are:
- Accelerator pedal position, min, max and average (looks like I misremembered the value, apologies, appears to be more like 87% when at the clicker).
- Ignition timing advance, average
- Actual and desired AFR, average
- RPM per sec (this is the acceleration amount that the engine is seeing throughout the pull)
- And the white bar at the bottom shows the total time for the highlighted section.
You can probably guess that this is the 'up to the clicker' run, with the accelerator pedal position and AFR being what they are.
The testing was carried out on a flat bit of dual carriageway between two roundabouts, so we headed straight back round for a second run, this time pushing through the clicker.
I also use a handy program called Virtual Dyno, which does what it says on the tin. There are some limitations, such as you need to use exactly the same bit of road, hitting the throttle at the same place at the same RPM to get a consistent comparison, and to get realistic values you also need a flat piece of road and should correct for car weight (fuel load, passengers, etc), ambient pressure and intake temps - but I have found it to match up very well with 'real' dyno figures. For example we know that the 2L ND2 makes more power than Mazda's claim, and with approx 28bhp drivetrain loss at max rpm for this car, 166whp (figure from Virtual Dyno) + 28bhp loss = 194bhp, which is pretty close to what both the Americans report (they tend to use whp) and the ~190bhp figure the engine actually makes.
Plotting the two above sets of data on the same graph shows the following...
The ~0.5s quicker acceleration time also ties in with the shown power increase, matching up with the sort of improvements in both bhp and acceleration time I have seen on my own ND1 1.5L, as does the RPM/Sec data.
I am 99% sure that the speed limiter removal function is tied to the Hi Load pedal threshold in the map, and that the automatic version of the car will use the same thing for kickdown. It just so happens that you can't go past the clicker without triggering the threshold, so they appear to be at the same place (well, I guess you could, but you'd need a very deft right foot!).
It's just a single cell in the map, which can be set anywhere - when I remap these cars, I set it to a little under the clicker, to ensure the Hi Load mode is always hit even if the driver has forgotten / couldn't be bothered / hates the feel of the click!
Hope that all helps and makes sense! Please feel free to ask if you have any more questions.
So the data below was collected using VersaTuner. It is mainly aimed at remapping / tuning Mazdas, but has built-in datalogging too. I am one of their approved e-tuners and software resellers.
First image has a 3rd gear pull from 3000-7000rpm highlighted (or as close as I could get, within the resolution of the data). Important things to note are:
- Accelerator pedal position, min, max and average (looks like I misremembered the value, apologies, appears to be more like 87% when at the clicker).
- Ignition timing advance, average
- Actual and desired AFR, average
- RPM per sec (this is the acceleration amount that the engine is seeing throughout the pull)
- And the white bar at the bottom shows the total time for the highlighted section.
You can probably guess that this is the 'up to the clicker' run, with the accelerator pedal position and AFR being what they are.
The testing was carried out on a flat bit of dual carriageway between two roundabouts, so we headed straight back round for a second run, this time pushing through the clicker.
I also use a handy program called Virtual Dyno, which does what it says on the tin. There are some limitations, such as you need to use exactly the same bit of road, hitting the throttle at the same place at the same RPM to get a consistent comparison, and to get realistic values you also need a flat piece of road and should correct for car weight (fuel load, passengers, etc), ambient pressure and intake temps - but I have found it to match up very well with 'real' dyno figures. For example we know that the 2L ND2 makes more power than Mazda's claim, and with approx 28bhp drivetrain loss at max rpm for this car, 166whp (figure from Virtual Dyno) + 28bhp loss = 194bhp, which is pretty close to what both the Americans report (they tend to use whp) and the ~190bhp figure the engine actually makes.
Plotting the two above sets of data on the same graph shows the following...
The ~0.5s quicker acceleration time also ties in with the shown power increase, matching up with the sort of improvements in both bhp and acceleration time I have seen on my own ND1 1.5L, as does the RPM/Sec data.
I am 99% sure that the speed limiter removal function is tied to the Hi Load pedal threshold in the map, and that the automatic version of the car will use the same thing for kickdown. It just so happens that you can't go past the clicker without triggering the threshold, so they appear to be at the same place (well, I guess you could, but you'd need a very deft right foot!).
It's just a single cell in the map, which can be set anywhere - when I remap these cars, I set it to a little under the clicker, to ensure the Hi Load mode is always hit even if the driver has forgotten / couldn't be bothered / hates the feel of the click!
Hope that all helps and makes sense! Please feel free to ask if you have any more questions.
Edited by AdamR83 on Thursday 8th February 10:11
Thanks so much Adam. I won't pretend to understand everything about those graphs but it's clear from them that the clicker matters and makes quite a bit of difference. After you mentioned the difference in performance I've been doing a bit of testing by "feel", accelerating up to the switch and then after it and I'm sure I can sense a difference.
I may be in touch with you about remapping at some point but for now I'm going to enjoy the car (sans clicker, after this weekend).
I may be in touch with you about remapping at some point but for now I'm going to enjoy the car (sans clicker, after this weekend).
I finally got round to removing the switch this weekend. It took about 30 mins in total. I disconnected the neutral terminal of the battery as a precaution, disconnected and removed the throttle pedal, then removed the switch from the pedal assembly.
The throttle is held on by two 10mm bolts, both on the left side of the pedal. Just need to remove a couple of covers using a flat head screwdriver then undo the bolts. Then unplug the throttle pedal by pushing down on both sides of where it clips in. The throttle pedal is then free to be removed.
The fiddliest bit is removing the switch thing from the pedal assembly. There are tabs on each side and a little hole to prise it out. I had a helper to push on one of the tabs while I pushed the other and prised the switch out, but it may be a little tough to do on your own.
Just a case then of plugging the pedal back in, bolting it back down and reconnecting the battery.
It feels as expected/hoped with the switch removed, just like a normal car!
I took a few pics of the process but sadly forgot to take a pic of the switch while it was in the assembly. You can hopefully see where it came from, in the little "box" underneath the pedal itself.
The throttle is held on by two 10mm bolts, both on the left side of the pedal. Just need to remove a couple of covers using a flat head screwdriver then undo the bolts. Then unplug the throttle pedal by pushing down on both sides of where it clips in. The throttle pedal is then free to be removed.
The fiddliest bit is removing the switch thing from the pedal assembly. There are tabs on each side and a little hole to prise it out. I had a helper to push on one of the tabs while I pushed the other and prised the switch out, but it may be a little tough to do on your own.
Just a case then of plugging the pedal back in, bolting it back down and reconnecting the battery.
It feels as expected/hoped with the switch removed, just like a normal car!
I took a few pics of the process but sadly forgot to take a pic of the switch while it was in the assembly. You can hopefully see where it came from, in the little "box" underneath the pedal itself.
S13_Alan said:
Just bought an ND2 and reckon even given a year I would never have noticed that.
What a completely daft thing.
Anyway, was a good use of 10 min there removing it! Thanks
Glad I could be of assistance! I've had it removed a week now and it feels so much better having a fully smooth pedal. I think I must put my foot down more than most as I noticed it almost instantly! What a completely daft thing.
Anyway, was a good use of 10 min there removing it! Thanks
Gassing Station | Mazda MX5/Roadster/Miata | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff