Handles like a go-kart?
Discussion
mattikake said:
DennisTheMenace said:
i will stick with a classic front engine RWD layout ta .
Yeah, just like a kart, not!I'll stick with racing's revolutionary mid-engine layout ta.
Looks just in front of the rear axle to me.
Edited by ATG on Monday 4th February 14:16
Matt,
Looking at one of your posts on another thread about the Mk2 '5' .....
Why not stick the JapChat forum, and share with them how wonderful the MR2 is. For ease of use - click here ----> http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/forum.asp?h=0&a...
K
Looking at one of your posts on another thread about the Mk2 '5' .....
mattikake said:
It's clearly intended to be a womans car. Avoid!
Amateurs.
It's pretty clear that you are not a fan of the '5' and as such I'm struggling to understand why you come on here slagging it off.Amateurs.
Why not stick the JapChat forum, and share with them how wonderful the MR2 is. For ease of use - click here ----> http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/forum.asp?h=0&a...
K
mattikake said:
DennisTheMenace said:
i will stick with a classic front engine RWD layout ta .
Yeah, just like a kart, not!I'll stick with racing's revolutionary mid-engine layout ta.
Nobody went racing with a rear engined car unless they had to. Rallying maybe, but not racing.
Kinky said:
Matt,
Looking at one of your posts on another thread about the Mk2 '5' .....
Why not stick the JapChat forum, and share with them how wonderful the MR2 is. For ease of use - click here ----> http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/forum.asp?h=0&a...
Why not slag it off? No car is perfect and some are so hyped they need a bit of a grounding in reality. Looking at one of your posts on another thread about the Mk2 '5' .....
mattikake said:
It's clearly intended to be a womans car. Avoid!
Amateurs.
It's pretty clear that you are not a fan of the '5' and as such I'm struggling to understand why you come on here slagging it off.Amateurs.
Why not stick the JapChat forum, and share with them how wonderful the MR2 is. For ease of use - click here ----> http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/forum.asp?h=0&a...
So why is there such a big section on PH for the MX5 and non for the MR2 (mk1 2 or 3) anyway? Is it because the MX5 is immensely overrated or just unbelievably common?
heebeegeetee said:
mattikake said:
DennisTheMenace said:
i will stick with a classic front engine RWD layout ta .
Yeah, just like a kart, not!I'll stick with racing's revolutionary mid-engine layout ta.
Edited by mattikake on Monday 4th February 16:48
mattikake said:
Why not slag it off? No car is perfect and some are so hyped they need a bit of a grounding in reality.
So Matt - are you going to pop over to the TVR forums and slag off all the TVRs for being unreliable?Or the Porsche forums for having a car that's not changed in 40-odd years?
Etc, etc ..... I'd give you 5 minutes tops
I'm not sure anyone here has said that the 5 is THE perfect car - so I fail to see your argument - other than troll-like and posting stereotypical drivel for the sake of it.
K
Using the same argument the MX-5 is mid-engined as the engine is actually behind the front axle.
The Lotus Elise is mid-engined. It has great balance and poise and is a delight to hussle around twisty roads/tracks. Until you lose the back end. Then it suddenly stops being fun and is led off the road backwards due to the weight of the engine being behind the lateral centre of gravity. This is the main reason they fit narrow front and wide rear tyres, to try to balance out the effects of the weight at the rear. MR2 Mk2 had similar problems, certainly on earlier cars.
I've never driven one but I believe the Mk1 MR2 was actually a well balanced car that didn't suffer too much from this. you certainly never hear anyone complaining about Mk1 MR2 handling.
The MX-5 having a front engine set behind the front axle means that it has great balance on corners but doesn't throw you into the bushes when you run out of talent.
We need someone who's had both. Kev???
The Lotus Elise is mid-engined. It has great balance and poise and is a delight to hussle around twisty roads/tracks. Until you lose the back end. Then it suddenly stops being fun and is led off the road backwards due to the weight of the engine being behind the lateral centre of gravity. This is the main reason they fit narrow front and wide rear tyres, to try to balance out the effects of the weight at the rear. MR2 Mk2 had similar problems, certainly on earlier cars.
I've never driven one but I believe the Mk1 MR2 was actually a well balanced car that didn't suffer too much from this. you certainly never hear anyone complaining about Mk1 MR2 handling.
The MX-5 having a front engine set behind the front axle means that it has great balance on corners but doesn't throw you into the bushes when you run out of talent.
We need someone who's had both. Kev???
Edited by MX-5 Lazza on Monday 4th February 17:08
Edited by MX-5 Lazza on Monday 4th February 17:09
Well I did have an S14a 200sx running about 250Bhp, which I guess was also mid-engined then! 
Very easy to get the backend out. One thing I noticed in the first 5 miles of driving the mr2 was how fast the backend goes when it goes. Get the feel for it though and you can feel the squirming starting to happen. Stop concentrating for one moment and I should imagine you'll be swapping ends quick. The 200sx wasn't really as much like that.
But man, compared to various mk2 mx5's the mr2 was so flat and felt so sturdy in corners. The mx5 felt like it wanted to get the backend just for the hell of it - neither pro nor con over the mr2, just different IMO, I guess a lot more like the 200sx than the small light car with loads grip that I expected.
Very easy to get the backend out. One thing I noticed in the first 5 miles of driving the mr2 was how fast the backend goes when it goes. Get the feel for it though and you can feel the squirming starting to happen. Stop concentrating for one moment and I should imagine you'll be swapping ends quick. The 200sx wasn't really as much like that.But man, compared to various mk2 mx5's the mr2 was so flat and felt so sturdy in corners. The mx5 felt like it wanted to get the backend just for the hell of it - neither pro nor con over the mr2, just different IMO, I guess a lot more like the 200sx than the small light car with loads grip that I expected.
Owned: MK1 MR2 & MK2 MX5
Had regular use of: MK2 MR2
Driven more than a few times: S1 Elise
All above are/were standard, unmodified.
So, a little bit of experience.
The MK2 MR2 is totally different to any of the others. It is bigger, heavier and I would say more of a GT than the others. I hated it.
The MX5 is totally different to the Elise. The Elise is a more focused car with very specific design parameters whereas, to my mind, the MX5 (and the MR2) is designed more as a softer every day car. Very different beasties. The Elise is a damn sight faster.
So that leaves the MK1 MR2 and the MX5. Again, quite different as there's a good few years between them. The MR2 is a much more 'revvy' car, a 1600 4 pot that just loves to rev. Traditionally described as mid engined (it's where the 'M' in the name comes from) on the right tyres they are planted and very predictable. I would say it has a touch more poise mid corner than the MX5. The 5 is softer than the MR2 but that, I suspect, is more a function of modern materials and a nicer more modern cabin than anything else. Maybe more of a perception thing. The MR2 is a touch 'space age 80's' inside!
The MX5 is slightly easier to be a bit of a hooligan in, a bit easier to provoke. But I have to say, I have not ever experienced, in any of these cars, the rear end 'just' stepping out. If it has, it has been at the behest of the drivers right foot, not a 'ditch finder, widow maker' chassis setup.
Personal preference? Of all of them, I'd have (and will have) an S1 Elise. The MK1 MR2 is now a bit long in the tooth, so the MX5 provides the perfect blend, for me, of comfortable RWD soft top fun motoring that the mem sahib is happy to go out in for a gentle waft around the countryside, but can also provide mucho smiles in solo hoonage.
Edited to Add: I've also owned a twin engined racing Pro-Kart and nothing on the road is like a kart!
Had regular use of: MK2 MR2
Driven more than a few times: S1 Elise
All above are/were standard, unmodified.
So, a little bit of experience.
The MK2 MR2 is totally different to any of the others. It is bigger, heavier and I would say more of a GT than the others. I hated it.
The MX5 is totally different to the Elise. The Elise is a more focused car with very specific design parameters whereas, to my mind, the MX5 (and the MR2) is designed more as a softer every day car. Very different beasties. The Elise is a damn sight faster.
So that leaves the MK1 MR2 and the MX5. Again, quite different as there's a good few years between them. The MR2 is a much more 'revvy' car, a 1600 4 pot that just loves to rev. Traditionally described as mid engined (it's where the 'M' in the name comes from) on the right tyres they are planted and very predictable. I would say it has a touch more poise mid corner than the MX5. The 5 is softer than the MR2 but that, I suspect, is more a function of modern materials and a nicer more modern cabin than anything else. Maybe more of a perception thing. The MR2 is a touch 'space age 80's' inside!
The MX5 is slightly easier to be a bit of a hooligan in, a bit easier to provoke. But I have to say, I have not ever experienced, in any of these cars, the rear end 'just' stepping out. If it has, it has been at the behest of the drivers right foot, not a 'ditch finder, widow maker' chassis setup.
Personal preference? Of all of them, I'd have (and will have) an S1 Elise. The MK1 MR2 is now a bit long in the tooth, so the MX5 provides the perfect blend, for me, of comfortable RWD soft top fun motoring that the mem sahib is happy to go out in for a gentle waft around the countryside, but can also provide mucho smiles in solo hoonage.
Edited to Add: I've also owned a twin engined racing Pro-Kart and nothing on the road is like a kart!
Edited by Red Firecracker on Monday 4th February 20:19
I've owned a Mk1 MR2, a Mk1 MX-5 and 2 Mk2 MX-5s.
The MR2 is a different beast to the MX-5. Not better, not worse - just different. The engine was a peppy unit (until it blew) - I never felt short of poke (which sometimes happens in MX-5s). It got the power down really nicely - probably the mid-engine layout helping with weight over the rear wheels. Unfortunately, I never drove the car in anger on a race-track so I can't really comment on the balance at the limit.
I can say that the Mk2 MX-5 is very well balanced at the limit but is very sensitive to tyre choice and alignment settings.
As for having 'go-kart handling' - I dont think so. I've spun go-karts on countless occasions - I've haven't spun my MX-5 (yet).
The MR2 is a different beast to the MX-5. Not better, not worse - just different. The engine was a peppy unit (until it blew) - I never felt short of poke (which sometimes happens in MX-5s). It got the power down really nicely - probably the mid-engine layout helping with weight over the rear wheels. Unfortunately, I never drove the car in anger on a race-track so I can't really comment on the balance at the limit.
I can say that the Mk2 MX-5 is very well balanced at the limit but is very sensitive to tyre choice and alignment settings.
As for having 'go-kart handling' - I dont think so. I've spun go-karts on countless occasions - I've haven't spun my MX-5 (yet).
Red Firecracker said:
The Elise is a damn sight faster.
Unfortunately i've only done 1 track day with my 5, at a Donny evening, courtesy of an MG & Lotus organised event. (I was supposed to be in an MG, ahem). I was about mid field with the Elises, indeed most of those that were faster seemed to be much more track prepped than the others.Since then i've slapped a supercharger on. My car is still otherwise bog standard, but there can't be many cars that you can give a 50% increase to, and which actually seem to handle better and grip more as a result. Sounds crazy i know, but true.
And yes, many front engined cars, partic. TVRs with their engines shoved back as far as poss, are far closer to being mid-engined than a car whose engine lies slap bang alongside the rear axle line.
Red Firecracker said:
The Elise is a damn sight faster.
Unfortunately i've only done 1 track day with my 5, at a Donny evening, courtesy of an MG & Lotus organised event. (I was supposed to be in an MG, ahem). I was about mid field with the Elises, indeed most of those that were faster seemed to be much more track prepped than the others.I'm just going through the event results for Loton Park hillclimbs - since the MX5oc had a class in last years hillcilmb and sprint championship.
So far i've found 1 MX5 - a mk1 1.6 on his first event put in 72.9/73sec on his 2 timed runs. which matched the time of another New Driver in a 1.9 pug 205 GTi (who put in a 71sec run)
the class was won by a loton regular, in a Elise which put in 61.8/62.6 runs.
I know several elises and 1 MX5 (i think 1.8) took part at Harewood last year, but their results sheets are only listing names, not cars. so without my programme i cant see who did what easily.
Looking at the Max5 (1.6 engines) and the Lotus On Track
Brands Hatch Indy Qually times
Max5 a spread of 58.66 to 62 sec
LoT a spread of 52.9 (class C) to 62sec (class A)
Snetterton
Max5 qually - 1.27 to 1.32
LoT qually - 1.16 (class C) to 1.31 (class B)
not bad considering the Max5 guys are giving away at least 20bhp and 200-300kg to the Elise/Exige/340R guys (and in some cases downforce)
Indeed, the nut holding the wheel makes probably the biggest difference and is often the last to be 'modified' or 'upgraded'.
However, I am comparing the specific vehicles I have driven as per my original post. In that context, the Elise is a damn site faster than the MK1 MR2 that I owned and also the MK2 MX5 that I now own, all of which are standard. This is not on track but over the same bits of local A and B roads.
Was purely a post about my experiences. I think there are way too many variables to be able to give a definitive answer to a question such as we have moved onto.
However, I am comparing the specific vehicles I have driven as per my original post. In that context, the Elise is a damn site faster than the MK1 MR2 that I owned and also the MK2 MX5 that I now own, all of which are standard. This is not on track but over the same bits of local A and B roads.
Was purely a post about my experiences. I think there are way too many variables to be able to give a definitive answer to a question such as we have moved onto.
Well there is one intersting yet simple test I do. There a nice flat roundabout with a nice surface a few hundred yards down the road. I've done many a constant radius grip test round there. One mk2 mx5 road test was right on this RB and now that I have an mr2 I've been there in that too.
Both conditions were wet and I got up to 41mph in the mx5 but the mr2 will do 43mph before starting to get understeery, though both fun to correct by some throttle induced oversteer. MR2 on Pirelli P5000's and the mx5 on Pirelli P6000's. Doesn't sound much but it's significant. Far more body roll on the mx5 too. Consider my Fiat Coupe will do 39mph in the wet on P7000s and a bag of crap like a mk4 Golf GTi will only do 34mph.
Used this test on many cars but mostly in the dry.
Both conditions were wet and I got up to 41mph in the mx5 but the mr2 will do 43mph before starting to get understeery, though both fun to correct by some throttle induced oversteer.
MR2 on Pirelli P5000's and the mx5 on Pirelli P6000's. Doesn't sound much but it's significant. Far more body roll on the mx5 too. Consider my Fiat Coupe will do 39mph in the wet on P7000s and a bag of crap like a mk4 Golf GTi will only do 34mph.Used this test on many cars but mostly in the dry.
Well it's fairly obvious really. A 1000kg car set up for road use is never going to handle like a go kart, you're being litteral. Likewise I'm sure a wailing V8 doesn't really sound like Brian Blessed on the cusp of orgasm as I once read it described.
Edited by juansolo on Tuesday 5th February 12:51
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