Handles like a go-kart?
Discussion
Also bear in mind that very few of the LoT racers are stock and they all run track-day tyres (AO48/R888 mostly) whereas MAX5 use road tyres and the mods are limited.
An Elise, even an early 118bhp S1 will be quicker than any stock MX-5, even a Mk3 2.0, especially on a twisty road. On the track it will still be quicker but will be limited by the quality of the driver (an MX-5 is easier to drive at the limit than an Elise). However, add a bit of rain to the equation and it changes a fair bit. Elises are a bit twitchy in wet/slippery conditions so while they will still have more grip available than an MX-5 on equivalent tyres you'd have to be very brave or very foolish to use it all.
At Bedford on 2 LoT track-days last year I found that my car with 215bhp and on road tyres was about equivalent to an S1 Elise on track-day tyres and then on my return with 226bhp it was about equivalent to a 111R on road tyres. This is quite a high-speed circuit though with lots of long straights. On the tighter sections a stock MX-5 would be able to match most stock Elises.
An Elise, even an early 118bhp S1 will be quicker than any stock MX-5, even a Mk3 2.0, especially on a twisty road. On the track it will still be quicker but will be limited by the quality of the driver (an MX-5 is easier to drive at the limit than an Elise). However, add a bit of rain to the equation and it changes a fair bit. Elises are a bit twitchy in wet/slippery conditions so while they will still have more grip available than an MX-5 on equivalent tyres you'd have to be very brave or very foolish to use it all.
At Bedford on 2 LoT track-days last year I found that my car with 215bhp and on road tyres was about equivalent to an S1 Elise on track-day tyres and then on my return with 226bhp it was about equivalent to a 111R on road tyres. This is quite a high-speed circuit though with lots of long straights. On the tighter sections a stock MX-5 would be able to match most stock Elises.
mattikake said:
DennisTheMenace said:
i will stick with a classic front engine RWD layout ta .
Yeah, just like a kart, not!I'll stick with racing's revolutionary mid-engine layout ta.
MX-5 Lazza said:
An Elise, even an early 118bhp S1 will be quicker than any stock MX-5
I honestly think you're underselling the MX-5 there. No it won't be as quick as an Elise, but it's far more exploitable and a well piloted MX-5 around a twisty track is surprisingly capable. Yes they roll around a lot, but the balance is stonking allowing you to corner like a hero. Only in straight line accelleration did I ever find the MX-5 lacking and then never on track.It's worth bearing in mind that the drivers of both cars can make a HUGE difference to speed on track and comparing your pace to someone else in a different car really doesn't say a huge amount about the car unless you know you're on a fairly equal footing talent-wise.
Edited by juansolo on Tuesday 5th February 12:52
heebeegeetee said:
mattikake said:
DennisTheMenace said:
i will stick with a classic front engine RWD layout ta .
Yeah, just like a kart, not!I'll stick with racing's revolutionary mid-engine layout ta.
Nobody went racing with a rear engined car unless they had to. Rallying maybe, but not racing.
Edited by juansolo on Tuesday 5th February 12:49
mattikake said:
Well there is one intersting yet simple test I do. There a nice flat roundabout with a nice surface a few hundred yards down the road. I've done many a constant radius grip test round there. One mk2 mx5 road test was right on this RB and now that I have an mr2 I've been there in that too.
Both conditions were wet and I got up to 41mph in the mx5 but the mr2 will do 43mph before starting to get understeery, though both fun to correct by some throttle induced oversteer.
MR2 on Pirelli P5000's and the mx5 on Pirelli P6000's. Doesn't sound much but it's significant. Far more body roll on the mx5 too. Consider my Fiat Coupe will do 39mph in the wet on P7000s and a bag of crap like a mk4 Golf GTi will only do 34mph.
Used this test on many cars but mostly in the dry.
Yet oddly I've owned both and when I decided to buy another, I bought a MX-5. I will totally, hand on heart, agree with you that the stock Mk3 Mr2 is a more capable car than a stock MX-5, it just is. It's faster, it handles better and it stops better. Not massively so, but it does. On track, if they were both in front of me, I'd take the Mr2 every single time. However on the road it suffers from being just too capable and unless you're spanking it, it's dull. It's about as much an event as driving an random sensible hatchback, it just doesn't feel like a sports car. The MX-5 is flawed in comparison, no doubt, but it's these flaws that make it fun even when you're not spanking it. It will let go with minimal provokation if you want to, it rides better which makes not making progress more enjoyable, it exposes you more to the eliments as opposed to cocooning you in a little micro-climate, etc. All these little things help making the MX-5, for me, the more entertaining car more of the time.Both conditions were wet and I got up to 41mph in the mx5 but the mr2 will do 43mph before starting to get understeery, though both fun to correct by some throttle induced oversteer.
MR2 on Pirelli P5000's and the mx5 on Pirelli P6000's. Doesn't sound much but it's significant. Far more body roll on the mx5 too. Consider my Fiat Coupe will do 39mph in the wet on P7000s and a bag of crap like a mk4 Golf GTi will only do 34mph.Used this test on many cars but mostly in the dry.
Edited by juansolo on Tuesday 5th February 13:22
mattikake said:
Well there is one intersting yet simple test I do. There a nice flat roundabout with a nice surface a few hundred yards down the road. I've done many a constant radius grip test round there. One mk2 mx5 road test was right on this RB and now that I have an mr2 I've been there in that too.
Both conditions were wet and I got up to 41mph in the mx5 but the mr2 will do 43mph before starting to get understeery, though both fun to correct by some throttle induced oversteer. MR2 on Pirelli P5000's and the mx5 on Pirelli P6000's. Doesn't sound much but it's significant. Far more body roll on the mx5 too. Consider my Fiat Coupe will do 39mph in the wet on P7000s and a bag of crap like a mk4 Golf GTi will only do 34mph.
Used this test on many cars but mostly in the dry.
I apologise in advance for feeding this most obvious of trolls.Both conditions were wet and I got up to 41mph in the mx5 but the mr2 will do 43mph before starting to get understeery, though both fun to correct by some throttle induced oversteer.
MR2 on Pirelli P5000's and the mx5 on Pirelli P6000's. Doesn't sound much but it's significant. Far more body roll on the mx5 too. Consider my Fiat Coupe will do 39mph in the wet on P7000s and a bag of crap like a mk4 Golf GTi will only do 34mph.Used this test on many cars but mostly in the dry.
So, from your post, we've established that you drove an MR2 round a roundabout near your house approximately 2mph faster than a Mk2 MX5. Thank you so much for your conclusive and definitive test.
Also, kudos to you for watching the speedo to that degree of accuracy during your manoeuvre. You are a very talented driver, performing those complex tasks whilst simoultaneously looking out for traffic ingressing to the test zone.
Oh, and may I ask what MX5 it was, specifically?
P.S. Any MX5 owner worth their salt will tell you that the only tyres for the MX5 are Toyos or F1 GSD3s. Improve cornering grip and radius speed, apparently.
Red Firecracker said:
hornetrider said:
P.S. Any MX5 owner worth their salt will tell you that the only tyres for the MX5 are Toyos or F1 GSD3s. Improve cornering grip and radius speed, apparently.
Rather enjoying some Yoko Parada 2's at the moment...... 
juansolo said:
heebeegeetee said:
mattikake said:
DennisTheMenace said:
i will stick with a classic front engine RWD layout ta .
Yeah, just like a kart, not!I'll stick with racing's revolutionary mid-engine layout ta.
Nobody went racing with a rear engined car unless they had to. Rallying maybe, but not racing.
hornetrider said:
mattikake said:
Well there is one intersting yet simple test I do. There a nice flat roundabout with a nice surface a few hundred yards down the road. I've done many a constant radius grip test round there. One mk2 mx5 road test was right on this RB and now that I have an mr2 I've been there in that too.
Both conditions were wet and I got up to 41mph in the mx5 but the mr2 will do 43mph before starting to get understeery, though both fun to correct by some throttle induced oversteer. MR2 on Pirelli P5000's and the mx5 on Pirelli P6000's. Doesn't sound much but it's significant. Far more body roll on the mx5 too. Consider my Fiat Coupe will do 39mph in the wet on P7000s and a bag of crap like a mk4 Golf GTi will only do 34mph.
Used this test on many cars but mostly in the dry.
I apologise in advance for feeding this most obvious of trolls.Both conditions were wet and I got up to 41mph in the mx5 but the mr2 will do 43mph before starting to get understeery, though both fun to correct by some throttle induced oversteer.
MR2 on Pirelli P5000's and the mx5 on Pirelli P6000's. Doesn't sound much but it's significant. Far more body roll on the mx5 too. Consider my Fiat Coupe will do 39mph in the wet on P7000s and a bag of crap like a mk4 Golf GTi will only do 34mph.Used this test on many cars but mostly in the dry.
hornetrider said:
So, from your post, we've established that you drove an MR2 round a roundabout near your house approximately 2mph faster than a Mk2 MX5. Thank you so much for your conclusive and definitive test.
It only takes a few laps for you to get the picture, if it needs more I guess that's just a personal matter of IQ. 
Seriously, it's only a basic test, something that you can (and do) on a test drive if the opportunity arises. Also gives you extra bargaining power if you verbally comment to the seller that it's not as good as this other car you looked at the other day etc. It was a mk2 mx5 btw.hornetrider said:
Also, kudos to you for watching the speedo to that degree of accuracy during your manoeuvre. You are a very talented driver, performing those complex tasks whilst simoultaneously looking out for traffic ingressing to the test zone.
Some of us are good drivers, some aren't... and you've just got to accept that and deal with it or you'll never better yourself. I must've 'tested' about 20 cars round here (in the quiet dead of night sir) and these two are the fastest by a long way - 2mph in a corner counts for a lot IMO, when 6-9 mph represents a big margin, as I'm sure you know how badly a mk4 Golf handles. It would be nice if I had my own race track or a dealer had but alas we're all just plebs and we make do with what we're given. Failing that I could always nip to a b-road and hoon it at 100mph round a blind bend for testing grip?Edited by mattikake on Tuesday 5th February 14:29
Sorry, I've been addressing the wrong question all along. I thought we were talking about handling not cornering grip. Try pretty much any hot-hatch with traction control switched on and you'll find they're much faster.
Or, try a very early 1.6 Mk1. They are about 100Kg lighter than a Mk2 and as you are talking about a constant radius (roundabout) chassis flex won't matter so max corner speed should be higher.
Or use better tyres (P6000 are rubbish on an MX-5). If you did 41mph on P6000 you will probably get +45mph on F1s.
Or, try a very early 1.6 Mk1. They are about 100Kg lighter than a Mk2 and as you are talking about a constant radius (roundabout) chassis flex won't matter so max corner speed should be higher.
Or use better tyres (P6000 are rubbish on an MX-5). If you did 41mph on P6000 you will probably get +45mph on F1s.
^ Wondered if anyone would get round to mentioning that.
Since me and a mate got GPS on our phones we've had many a private test track experiment. Of several modern-ish (less than 9 years old) cars we've tested on, all speedo's seem to be the exact same amount out and it also goes in stages, unless you've fitted smaller radius tyres/wheels or have a real malfunction with your car. E.g. below 60 and above 40 all speedos were out by exactly 4mph. Above 100 and all speedos were out by 5mph, right up their max speed. Too consistent to be chance or a quality-based inaccuracy.
In short, a hastey-scientific results seem to indicate that, 1) Book figures for cars are pretty much spot-on, 2) Speedometer accuracy is deliberately out and by staged amounts for all modern cars, 3) even a 1 degree downhill slope can account for an extra 2mph to max speed, 4) GPS phones are cool as fcuk.
Since me and a mate got GPS on our phones we've had many a private test track experiment. Of several modern-ish (less than 9 years old) cars we've tested on, all speedo's seem to be the exact same amount out and it also goes in stages, unless you've fitted smaller radius tyres/wheels or have a real malfunction with your car. E.g. below 60 and above 40 all speedos were out by exactly 4mph. Above 100 and all speedos were out by 5mph, right up their max speed. Too consistent to be chance or a quality-based inaccuracy.
In short, a hastey-scientific results seem to indicate that, 1) Book figures for cars are pretty much spot-on, 2) Speedometer accuracy is deliberately out and by staged amounts for all modern cars, 3) even a 1 degree downhill slope can account for an extra 2mph to max speed, 4) GPS phones are cool as fcuk.
Edited by mattikake on Tuesday 5th February 16:55
Edited by mattikake on Tuesday 5th February 16:56
juansolo said:
mattikake said:
DennisTheMenace said:
i will stick with a classic front engine RWD layout ta .
Yeah, just like a kart, not!I'll stick with racing's revolutionary mid-engine layout ta.
juansolo said:
Porsche seem to make it work quite well and sorry to dissapoint you, but the Mr2 is mid-engined. The engine is behind (as you view from the rear) the driveline of the rear wheels in exactly the same way the Elise is and plenty other transverse mid-mounted engines before it (Miura, F348, Dino, etc).
Hold on, the 911 aside, none of those cars you mentioned were any good in the handling department. The Miura was a complete dog, if you read the road tests on them, the car suffered particularly from being light on the front. Everyone knows that 'mid-engined' cars have a reptuation, but if you check out the cars whose engines were in-line, such as Esprit and Boxster to name 2, they have fantastic handling.I'm sorry, but i can't see how a car that has no part of its engine anywhere near the middle of the car can be called 'mid-engined'. Its nothing other than a triumph of marketing over engineering. The engines and drive trains are all plucked straight out of fwd hatchbacks, are used for expediency, nothing else, and certainly not because its the best solution. The 911 has its engine where it is to release more space in the cabin, not because its in the best place for handling. It made a very good rally car, and it made a good privateer race car 'cos you could buy powerful, strong and reliable cars straight off the shelf.
The Elise is a success of course, but then it is very light, lighter than all its rivals. As for my experience at Donnington, i put it down to my assumption that the 5 is easier to drive 'near the limit' than the Elise, its the only thing i could think of. I was a tad quicker over a lap than the one Elise in my session. he'd catch right up with me along the straight, but then surprisingly i'd leave him for dead through the chicane, and stay ahead until the start of the straight again. One of the very fastest cars that evening, the handling of which was something to be seen, unbelievably quick down the Craners, was a standard (I believe) early 1.6 MX5, the version which i suspect was the best of all.
Edited by heebeegeetee on Tuesday 5th February 17:13
heebeegeetee said:
juansolo said:
mattikake said:
DennisTheMenace said:
i will stick with a classic front engine RWD layout ta .
Yeah, just like a kart, not!I'll stick with racing's revolutionary mid-engine layout ta.
heebeegeetee said:
juansolo said:
Porsche seem to make it work quite well and sorry to dissapoint you, but the Mr2 is mid-engined. The engine is behind (as you view from the rear) the driveline of the rear wheels in exactly the same way the Elise is and plenty other transverse mid-mounted engines before it (Miura, F348, Dino, etc).
Hold on, the 911 aside, none of those cars you mentioned were any good in the handling department. The Miura was a complete dog, if you read the road tests on them, the car suffered particularly from being light on the front. Everyone knows that 'mid-engined' cars have a reptuation, but if you check out the cars whose engines were in-line, such as Esprit and Boxster to name 2, they have fantastic handling.I'm sorry, but i can't see how a car that has no part of its engine anywhere near the middle of the car can be called 'mid-engined'. Its nothing other than a triumph of marketing over engineering. The engines and drive trains are all plucked straight out of fwd hatchbacks, are used for expediency, nothing else, and certainly not because its the best solution. The 911 has its engine where it is to release more space in the cabin, not because its in the best place for handling. It made a very good rally car, and it made a good privateer race car 'cos you could buy powerful, strong and reliable cars straight off the shelf.
The Elise is a success of course, but then it is very light, lighter than all its rivals. As for my experience at Donnington, i put it down to my assumption that the 5 is easier to drive 'near the limit' than the Elise, its the only thing i could think of. I was a tad quicker over a lap than the one Elise in my session. he'd catch right up with me along the straight, but then surprisingly i'd leave him for dead through the chicane, and stay ahead until the start of the straight again. One of the very fastest cars that evening, the handling of which was something to be seen, unbelievably quick down the Craners, was a standard (I believe) early 1.6 MX5, the version which i suspect was the best of all.
The 5 is very forgiving, the Mk1 Elise isn't. As such it's easier to drive a 5 faster than an Elise. But there is no doubting that a suitably talented driver would get a hell of a lot more out of an Elise than a 5.
Edited by juansolo on Tuesday 5th February 17:36
juansolo said:
heebeegeetee said:
juansolo said:
mattikake said:
DennisTheMenace said:
i will stick with a classic front engine RWD layout ta .
Yeah, just like a kart, not!I'll stick with racing's revolutionary mid-engine layout ta.
- ahem* Auto Union
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