Handles like a go-kart?

[kevham]

Just to follow up on sprint/hillclimb results and trackday 'tests', the driver is a crucial element and makes times fairly meaningless. For example, below are times posted for roadgoing cars at a sprint at Kames last October. I managed to beat a guy in an Elise - but the guy he was sharing with was more than 6 seconds faster than me. These were all running on List 1A tyres (ie normal road tyres) and my car is fairly standard - some of the others (the Rover, Elise and Honda especially) were far from standard.

Car	Best time (sec)
Peugeot 106 Rallye	105.99
Peugeot 106 Rallye	108.94
Peugeot 106 Rallye	100.61
Peugeot 205 Rallye	102.31
Peugeot 205 Rallye	109.01
Rover 200	97.89
Rover 200	98.55
Honda Civic R	103.80
Lotus Elise S1	101.61
VW Golf Rallye	100.78
Lotus Elise S1	94.13
Mazda MX5 Mk2	100.99

[juansolo]

lord summerisle said:

• ahem* Auto Union

LOL, indeed. *blushes*

[Firefox1]

I think Carl Benz built the first mid engined car circa 1897. One more thing didn't the MX5's beat the MR2's at Silverstone "Powernights" last year.

[mattikake]

Yeah (one of) the real revolution Colin Chapman did was to use the engine as part of the chassis, it just happened to be the best place for this was to put it behind the driver.

The first ever car was mid/rear engined Can't remember the name. Was that the Benz one?

[ATG]

ATG said:

mattikake said:

DennisTheMenace said:

i will stick with a classic front engine RWD layout ta .

Yeah, just like a kart, not!

I'll stick with racing's revolutionary mid-engine layout ta.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Benz_Patent_Motorwagen_1886_%28Replica%29.jpg 
Looks just in front of the rear axle to me.

From Monday ... keep up at the back !

[GravelBen]

Timberwolf said:

mattikake said:

2mph in a corner counts for a lot IMO

... and is also within the amount that could be accounted for by a difference in speedometer accuracy between two different cars.

Or how about a few degrees difference in road temperature? Given that the tests seem to have been done on different occasions.

[mattikake]

^ of course, but you use what you're given when you're given it. Temps mya have been withing a couple of degrees equal. I don't think anyone here is under any delusions that an MX5 would be faster round corners than an MR2, all other things equal. It might be close, as that test suggested, but that is all.

[Red Firecracker]

mattikake said:

I don't think anyone here is under any delusions that an MX5 would be faster round corners than an MR2, all other things equal. It might be close, as that test suggested, but that is all.

TBH, I'm not sure I care. I have the MX5 for reasons other than 'it goes round a roundabout X mph faster/slower than a Y'.

It's a completely meaningless test that completely fails to take into consideration the actual reasons for owning a car of its type.

Doing the test again when you put bigger rubber on the front?

[mattikake]

Red Firecracker said:

Doing the test again when you put bigger rubber on the front?

Ha, certainly, if I do put fatter rubber on the front. It's as scientific as your average Joe can get, so it will have to do.

[franv8]

Stupid argument. Flawed test. MX5 is a fantastic driving experience and the limits are easily explored. Fact.

MR2 faster round roundabouts - I should hope so, otherwise you'd have lost all that boot space and gained a FWD engine set up (albeit in the middle) for nothing).

Mk 1 MX5 950 kg btw.

Glad to know my Vette is now classed as mid engined.

[juansolo]

Technically

Most FWD cars are also Certainly if you accept that transverse mounted engines behind the driver but in front of the axle are.

Edited by juansolo on Thursday 7th February 15:18

[heebeegeetee]

juansolo said:

Technically

Most FWD cars are also Certainly if you accept that transverse mounted engines behind the driver but in front of the axle are.

Edited by juansolo on Thursday 7th February 15:18

For packaging purposes, fwds have the engines in front of the front axle line.

But yeah, if you could rotate the whole engine & 'box lump, and drop it straight back into from where it came, hey presto! Mid-engined!

[franv8]

Oh look, see how the MR2 absolutely trounced the MX5 in this test,

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/3240/mazda...

I couldn't find the roundabout test in the article, perhaps it is something that could be suggested to them.

[mattikake]

franv8 said:

Oh look, see how the MR2 absolutely trounced the MX5 in this test,

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/3240/mazda...

I couldn't find the roundabout test in the article, perhaps it is something that could be suggested to them.

Looks like it did. It was faster.

So basically they're saying the MX5 is for people who can't drive and the MR2 is for people who can? You can just tell they're American. The Mr2 is actually better at going, but the MX5 is more fun because it loses grip and speed sooner. Hmm... well it has been a few decades since the yanks came up with a decent F1 driver. And what kind of half-pint half-man can get in an MX5 anyway? I can't.* Must be something to do with the size of my nads, or the fact that I have some.

Pretty biased test though. I mean where else do they reckon no ABS is better than ABS if it's for a road car? Oh hang on, it's for the track where you need feel over safety... Oh but the MR2 is faster with better turn-in and exit speed. No, we're going to mean road car again because it incorporates luggage space. [MR2] It's a toy which would be for the track where it is better, but despite testing on a track we're going to pretend it's on a public road. In fact, what we will do is find something we like about the mx5 and decide whether we want a road car or a track car at that moment and work from that... and we'll thrown in a few personal opinions like we prefer the style, and rebadge that as a fact worthy of basing the conclusion of a review on. Only a sheep uses someone else personal taste as their own.

[MR2] "Maybe the most-responsive-handling car made today, but lacks enough storage room to make it anything but a toy."
It's a toy. Yep, I think you got it! Give the monkey a bananna.

[MX5] "The Japanese roadster with more soul than James Brown."
Despite this being good old pre-opinionated entertaining journalism, if a yank thinks a Jap car has more soul than James Brown they've never been anywhere near anything Italian.

Btw, since when did 120lbs = 90Kg? More like 190lbs difference in weight (1065Kg v 975Kg).

Anyway, the MX5 still handles NOTHING like a go-kart. The MR2 is much closer to this however, but still nothing like a go-kart.

• Aye, that this is my self-delusionary ploy... at your expense.

Edited by mattikake on Friday 8th February 10:06

[Red Firecracker]

mattikake said:

Looks like it did. It was faster.

Blimey, we're back to science again...

mattikake said:

So basically they're saying the MX5 is for people who can't drive and the MR2 is for people who can? You can just tell they're American.

No, they're not saying that.

mattikake said:

The Mr2 is actually better at going, but the MX5 is more fun because it loses grip and speed sooner. Hmm... well it has been a few decades since the yanks came up with a decent F1 driver.

So a review is wrong because the country it originated in hasn't produced a credible F1 driver in decades? Stunning.

mattikake said:

Pretty biased test though. I mean where else do they reckon no ABS is better than ABS if it's for a road car?

You might want to Google Gordon Murray's past work.

mattikake said:

Oh hang on, it's for the track where you need feel over safety... Oh but the MR2 is faster with better turn-in and exit speed. No, we're going to mean road car again because it incorporates luggage space. [MR2] It's a toy which would be for the track where it is better, but despite testing on a track we're going to pretend it's on a public road. In fact, what we will do is find something we like about the mx5 and decide whether we want a road car or a track car at that moment and work from that... and we'll thrown in a few personal opinions like we prefer the style, and rebadge that as a fact worthy of basing the conclusion of a review on. Only a sheep uses someone else personal taste to base theirs on.

but no roundabout test? Pah, stupid American review.

mattikake said:

[MR2] "Maybe the most-responsive-handling car made today, but lacks enough storage room to make it anything but a toy."
It's a toy. Yep, I think you got it! Give the monkey a bananna.

Nice....

mattikake said:

[MX5] "The Japanese roadster with more soul than James Brown."
Despite this being good old pre-opinionated entertaining journalism, if a yank thinks a Jap car has more soul than James Brown they've never been anywhere near anything Italian.

Hit. Nail. Head. Entertaining journalism and surely by your own admission, if you took his (the reviewers) opinion to be fact, you'd be a sheep.

"The Japanese roadster with more soul than James Brown, except for X, Y, Z etc etc etc" doesn't really scan well on a page of a comparison of just 2 cars.

mattikake said:

Anyway, the MX5 still handles NOTHING like a go-kart. The MR2 is much close to this however, but still nothing like a go-kart.

For one last time, NOTHING ON THE ROAD HANDLES LIKE A KART. Hell, a Pro-Kart doesn't handle like a Rotax. We're back to the original explanations on the first page of this increasingly tiresome thread. It's a way of indicating to the common person that it handles over and above their 4 door family saloon. They may not have driven a kart, but they know that they are pointy little things that handle really well.

I think the only sensible ending in sight to this thread is that you're happy with your MR2, most of us here I would presume are happy with their choice as well. Everybody is happy. What a nice place the world can be. Just because you don't like the Mazda, doesn't mean we automatically hate the MR2.

[franv8]

Oh dear, seems like we're getting a little too het up over the MR2 MX5 thing again Mattikake.

I think you'll find the way it works is you pays your money you takes your choice (evidently you'll pay more for the MR2 too I think, and probably in depreciation too).

But I thought your original bug bear was the MX5 handling or not as a go kart, please be clear, what is the real point here, is it:

The MR2 is more like a go kart than the MX5

The MX5 does not handle like a go kart

The MR2 is bought by men and the MX5 by girls

Everyone who buys an MX5 missed an opportunity when they could have bought an MR2

The MR2 would be faster round a roundabout that an MX5

The MR2 would be faster round a track

The MR2 is more like a racecar than an MX5

Clarity in your reply appreciated.

[Red Firecracker]

I think you've summed it up, Fran.

I'm off to cry into my big pillow as I have the wrong car. Wonder what speed I can get the Saab upto round a roundabout?

[Kinky]

Perhaps it's time to bring this sad thread to a close. I can't cope with the extreme sadness and disappointment that I've clearly purchased the wrong car. This thread will only serve as a sad reminder.

K

[Wigeon Incognito]

mattikake said:

That's ok. There's plenty of people like me waiting to start some IQ, style, class, herd culling in the name of humanity. Really, it's no problem. Just ask. I'll even do it in the name of Allah if you like.

SURELY this guy deserves to be binned by now, especially after the raft of regular PHers going that way.

[Red Firecracker]

mattikake said:

Did anyone miss the self-delusionary ploy part due to me being too much of a man to get into a mk2 mx5?

No, just ignored it as irrelevant, much like you.

mattikake said:

That's ok. There's plenty of people like me waiting to start some IQ, style, class, herd culling in the name of humanity. Really, it's no problem. Just ask. I'll even do it in the name of Allah if you like.

You really are Nickthebassist. Where's my 5 pounds?

So we not only have the wrong cars, we're also deficient in all other areas of our lives and come the revolution we will be herded against the wall by a fleet of MK3 MR2's? The horror!!!!

Never mind PH going to the dogs, I think they've set up camp here.