P5 Puredrive vs Gaz
Discussion
Herman Toothrot said:
maz8062 said:
MX-5 Lazza said:
they haven't been on long enough to be able to report on the reliability.
I've only heard of 2 people in the country who have had a problem with P5 shocks.
This is more apt for the P5 shocks. P5 have probably sold 60 or so of this suspension, but all of a sudden it's better than Tein, Gaz, KYB and every other set up. It is still very early to judge, but early reports are that it is very good. I think it is reckless to claim that these shocks are better than all before when there is insufficient data to back up any claims. When the shocks have done 100k + without problems it can then be compared to the others that have more mileage.I've only heard of 2 people in the country who have had a problem with P5 shocks.
Just my view
Edited by maz8062 on Sunday 21st December 10:54
Herman Toothrot said:
maz8062 said:
MX-5 Lazza said:
they haven't been on long enough to be able to report on the reliability.
I've only heard of 2 people in the country who have had a problem with P5 shocks.
This is more apt for the P5 shocks. P5 have probably sold 60 or so of this suspension, but all of a sudden it's better than Tein, Gaz, KYB and every other set up. It is still very early to judge, but early reports are that it is very good. I think it is reckless to claim that these shocks are better than all before when there is insufficient data to back up any claims. When the shocks have done 100k + without problems it can then be compared to the others that have more mileage.I've only heard of 2 people in the country who have had a problem with P5 shocks.
Just my view
Edited by maz8062 on Sunday 21st December 10:54
Herman Toothrot said:
So you've run an MX5 on Yellow Bilsteins, KYB AGX and Protech to have an opinion then?
I have NB AGX shocks, fm springs and NB top mounts on my MK1. I also have a 1.25" front sway bar, a hard dog and braces. On the softest setting the car handles very well and copes with the uneven roads prevalent in london. P5 may be better, but what else do I need for normal road driving?It just seems to me that whenever there is a discussion about shocks P5 are always touted as the best even though less than 60 have been sold. They may just be the best, but i think it is too early to make grandiose statements at this early stage.
Well I have had Yellow Bilsteins with OEM springs, this was far to stiffly sprung, didn't inspire confidence car felt disconnected from the road.
I replaced them with KYB AGX, new bumpstops & Eibach Sport springs, this setup was better not as crashy and worked very well on smooth surfaces i.e. It was really good at Castle Combe the problem with this setup was on undulating b roads, didn't control the car well in these situations.
At this point I started looking for another setup to try, I searched the forums and found out about GAZ, thought at first they sounded ideal but then the more I read the more put off I was as started to find too many un-happy people.
Then it was suggested to me P5 Protech maybe worth trying. I searched and read up, no unhappy customers, one guy used them in a race series and won his class said they were great nothing bad from anyone about them so I placed my order along with mk2 top mounts. Took ages before I actually got my hands on them but put them on did a bit of adjusting, I found the suggested damping settings were a bit too soft too bouncy a ride, few clicks more on the rear in particular and perfect, cannot fault them. Give a supple ride on road, comfortable not at all crashy, on track seem to allow the car to hang on to the tarmac really well without too much bod roll. Everyone I've had passenger in the car on track have commented on how well it holds on infact, most of those other MX5 owners some with the same Geometry, car setup by the same place WIM.
I replaced them with KYB AGX, new bumpstops & Eibach Sport springs, this setup was better not as crashy and worked very well on smooth surfaces i.e. It was really good at Castle Combe the problem with this setup was on undulating b roads, didn't control the car well in these situations.
At this point I started looking for another setup to try, I searched the forums and found out about GAZ, thought at first they sounded ideal but then the more I read the more put off I was as started to find too many un-happy people.
Then it was suggested to me P5 Protech maybe worth trying. I searched and read up, no unhappy customers, one guy used them in a race series and won his class said they were great nothing bad from anyone about them so I placed my order along with mk2 top mounts. Took ages before I actually got my hands on them but put them on did a bit of adjusting, I found the suggested damping settings were a bit too soft too bouncy a ride, few clicks more on the rear in particular and perfect, cannot fault them. Give a supple ride on road, comfortable not at all crashy, on track seem to allow the car to hang on to the tarmac really well without too much bod roll. Everyone I've had passenger in the car on track have commented on how well it holds on infact, most of those other MX5 owners some with the same Geometry, car setup by the same place WIM.
Howard- said:
Are the mk2 topmounts a "must"? How much are they?
They allow more travel which is beneficial on the mk1 as travel is limited to begin with, remember a mk2 is essentially the same car just tweeked, topmounts being a tweak. Good news is they are a fraction of the price of the original mk1 mounts, something like £10 each instead of £40 each.
Herman Toothrot said:
Howard- said:
Are the mk2 topmounts a "must"? How much are they?
They allow more travel which is beneficial on the mk1 as travel is limited to begin with, remember a mk2 is essentially the same car just tweeked, topmounts being a tweak. Good news is they are a fraction of the price of the original mk1 mounts, something like £10 each instead of £40 each.Nobody is saying that P5 PD is the best thing out there but everyone who has tried them has said that it's the best thing they've tried. The same can't be said of the GAZ suspension.
My own experience is of the stock Mk2.5 suspension (Bilstein) which was way too soft (very different from Mk1 Bilsteins) then KYB AGX shocks + FM Springs + FM ARBs and now P5 PD shocks & springs + stock ARBs.
The only reason I went to PD from KYB/FM was because my ride-height was much too low (I had the early FM springs that were lower than designed) and I wanted to be able to fine-tune the ride height which meant I needed height-adjustable shocks.
I did some research and found a number of complaints about GAZ shocks. The P5 PD were still new so there was no real feedback. I did get to talk to the guy who developed them for P5 though and talking to him and getting a ride in his car with this setup convinced me to give them a go. I have to say I'm very happy with them now that I have the ride-height just where I want it (F325mm R330mm more than an inch higher than I had before).
I had previously been very happy with the KYB/FM combo, especially on track, but the PD setup is definitely much better on the road and copes with bumps much better. The springs are stiffer than the FM springs so the FM ARB isn't needed to reduce roll. This also means the shocks don't have to be as stiff which means you get much better traction over bumpy and/or slippery surfaces. The car feels much safer now and just as good if not better on track.
Nitrons are very popular with Elise owners - they are the "must-have" setup but only really for track use, too stiff for the road. really expensive though. I've never seen an MX-5 offering.
Tein are probably the best MX5 shocks you can get but they are very expensive. I knew a guy that had bought some new and was trying to sell them unused. He couldn't even sell them at £800 and that was over £200 loss for him!
As far as I know, there isn't an after-market Bilstein setup for the MX-5. The ones fitted to Mk1s were way too stiff for British roads. Mk2.5 Sport Bilsteins are stiffer than the shock fitted to non-sport Mk2.5s but still too soft for me, especially with the SC.
My own experience is of the stock Mk2.5 suspension (Bilstein) which was way too soft (very different from Mk1 Bilsteins) then KYB AGX shocks + FM Springs + FM ARBs and now P5 PD shocks & springs + stock ARBs.
The only reason I went to PD from KYB/FM was because my ride-height was much too low (I had the early FM springs that were lower than designed) and I wanted to be able to fine-tune the ride height which meant I needed height-adjustable shocks.
I did some research and found a number of complaints about GAZ shocks. The P5 PD were still new so there was no real feedback. I did get to talk to the guy who developed them for P5 though and talking to him and getting a ride in his car with this setup convinced me to give them a go. I have to say I'm very happy with them now that I have the ride-height just where I want it (F325mm R330mm more than an inch higher than I had before).
I had previously been very happy with the KYB/FM combo, especially on track, but the PD setup is definitely much better on the road and copes with bumps much better. The springs are stiffer than the FM springs so the FM ARB isn't needed to reduce roll. This also means the shocks don't have to be as stiff which means you get much better traction over bumpy and/or slippery surfaces. The car feels much safer now and just as good if not better on track.
Nitrons are very popular with Elise owners - they are the "must-have" setup but only really for track use, too stiff for the road. really expensive though. I've never seen an MX-5 offering.
Tein are probably the best MX5 shocks you can get but they are very expensive. I knew a guy that had bought some new and was trying to sell them unused. He couldn't even sell them at £800 and that was over £200 loss for him!
As far as I know, there isn't an after-market Bilstein setup for the MX-5. The ones fitted to Mk1s were way too stiff for British roads. Mk2.5 Sport Bilsteins are stiffer than the shock fitted to non-sport Mk2.5s but still too soft for me, especially with the SC.
Fair enough guys, I'm convinced.
Actually, the AGX/FM combo on my car is crap! Ok, I'm riding on 195/45 R14 tyres, a bigger sway bar and lots of braces, but it really is uncomfortable on any time of road surface that is not billiard smooth. I'd kind of learned to put up with it then this thread got me thinking after a jaunt across london yesterday evening. I've set them up on the softest setting yet it is still too hard and control is very difficult at town speeds.
New shocks are now on my list
Actually, the AGX/FM combo on my car is crap! Ok, I'm riding on 195/45 R14 tyres, a bigger sway bar and lots of braces, but it really is uncomfortable on any time of road surface that is not billiard smooth. I'd kind of learned to put up with it then this thread got me thinking after a jaunt across london yesterday evening. I've set them up on the softest setting yet it is still too hard and control is very difficult at town speeds.
New shocks are now on my list
kevham said:
ryan-isla said:
Gaz have a very good reputation in the club racing market. We are talking from mini's to BMW's to pick up trucks to Porsche's. Protech only do coilovers for a handful of cars. I have driven cars with lots of different suspension fitted and have been impressed with Gaz. Raced at Silverstone this year on them at the Britcar 24hr event as did the Top Gear team last year in their BMW.
I agree that Gaz are well respected but the Gaz kits I've seen on racers bear little resemblance to the £500 kits available for the MX-5 (which is what we are taking about here).What about Nitron? They seem to be well respected in club hillclimb and sprint circles - anybody using them in circuit racing? I'm sure that a kit could be developed for the MX-5 although it would definintely be more expensive than the Gaz or P5 kits.
If there was a market I would talk them into it.
I feel qualified to answer the argument about various brands because I sell every major brand on the market except Protech but have fitted a few kits to TVRs
I did help with the initial Gaz development and have been keeping quiet because for the last six months we have been testing a completely new Gaz development shock on TVR, Lotus Elise and a couple of Ma5da race series cars.
We wanted lighter, faster responding shocks with no squeaky valves and I'm happy to say that things are looking good with Ma5da racing adopting the Gaz Gold Pro series and several racing Elise comming across because the lighter shocks with low friction banded piston and racing oil takes Gaz up several leagues on the suspension front.
On the Protech front, I have not had much chance to assess them on 5's other than having a play to see how they set up and they seem on a par with AVO on the valving front, which was the same situation I found on Marcos and TVR and that should be no surprise as the previous owner of AVO is now the MD of Protech. I pointed out to the owner that his rear shocks seemed lacking in rebound and he did agree that the rear did hop and skip about, you would need to decrease spring rates and turn the shocks up to combat this problem. BTW some Tein owners have also complained about similar problems and we are sending out a Pro kit to a 5 racer in the States for assessment, its not as easy to counteract poor valving on monotube shocks with lesser or greater springs because they have much less bump adjustment and therefore need a time consuming revalve.
I did help with the initial Gaz development and have been keeping quiet because for the last six months we have been testing a completely new Gaz development shock on TVR, Lotus Elise and a couple of Ma5da race series cars.
We wanted lighter, faster responding shocks with no squeaky valves and I'm happy to say that things are looking good with Ma5da racing adopting the Gaz Gold Pro series and several racing Elise comming across because the lighter shocks with low friction banded piston and racing oil takes Gaz up several leagues on the suspension front.
On the Protech front, I have not had much chance to assess them on 5's other than having a play to see how they set up and they seem on a par with AVO on the valving front, which was the same situation I found on Marcos and TVR and that should be no surprise as the previous owner of AVO is now the MD of Protech. I pointed out to the owner that his rear shocks seemed lacking in rebound and he did agree that the rear did hop and skip about, you would need to decrease spring rates and turn the shocks up to combat this problem. BTW some Tein owners have also complained about similar problems and we are sending out a Pro kit to a 5 racer in the States for assessment, its not as easy to counteract poor valving on monotube shocks with lesser or greater springs because they have much less bump adjustment and therefore need a time consuming revalve.
Hi Derek (is that you?) 
You are in a better position than most of us to know about the reliability of the GAZ shocks. You might also know how they compare in that respect to others mentioned in this thread. Are the reliability issues we've mentioned real or just a perceived problem?
As an aside - are the GAZ Gold shocks a replacement for the standard GAZ adjustables or an upgrade? Also are they road or track biased?
ETA: I am of course just talking about MX5 shocks, not the general market-place.
You are in a better position than most of us to know about the reliability of the GAZ shocks. You might also know how they compare in that respect to others mentioned in this thread. Are the reliability issues we've mentioned real or just a perceived problem?
As an aside - are the GAZ Gold shocks a replacement for the standard GAZ adjustables or an upgrade? Also are they road or track biased?
ETA: I am of course just talking about MX5 shocks, not the general market-place.
Edited by MX-5 Lazza on Monday 22 December 14:50
MX-5 Lazza said:
Hi Derek (is that you?)
You are in a better position than most of us to know about the reliability of the GAZ shocks. You might also know how they compare in that respect to others mentioned in this thread. Are the reliability issues we've mentioned real or just a perceived problem?
As an aside - are the GAZ Gold shocks a replacement for the standard GAZ adjustables or an upgrade? Also are they road or track biased?
ETA: I am of course just talking about MX5 shocks, not the general market-place.
Hand on heart, Gaz have not always covered themselves with glory but I have got the MD's ear and batter him regularly (as I do with all my manufacturers). All the initial teething problems on the 5's are now sorted and any old kits playing up have mostly been replaced or sorted.You are in a better position than most of us to know about the reliability of the GAZ shocks. You might also know how they compare in that respect to others mentioned in this thread. Are the reliability issues we've mentioned real or just a perceived problem?
As an aside - are the GAZ Gold shocks a replacement for the standard GAZ adjustables or an upgrade? Also are they road or track biased?
ETA: I am of course just talking about MX5 shocks, not the general market-place.
The Gaz Gold Pro series are being sold to the public by Tony at WIM on an exclusive deal because I dont want bespoke kits being fitted by muppets and they will cover a range of springs for road or track without a revalve.
Gah, I keep coming back to these http://www.mx5parts.co.uk/product_info.php/product... and having the alignment properly done at WIM and maybe the fitting or maybe fitting it myself.
Decisions, decisions...
Decisions, decisions...
Edited by Howard- on Monday 22 December 15:38
Cheers for the honest input Derek.
With regards to what you said about the P5 PD rear suspension, that tallys with my own findings. I had to put the rear shocks up a notch at the rear to as I found it was a little bit bouncy at the rear on the recommended settings but I'm very happy with how it feels now.
With regards to what you said about the P5 PD rear suspension, that tallys with my own findings. I had to put the rear shocks up a notch at the rear to as I found it was a little bit bouncy at the rear on the recommended settings but I'm very happy with how it feels now.
maz8062 said:
Fair enough guys, I'm convinced.
Actually, the AGX/FM combo on my car is crap! Ok, I'm riding on 195/45 R14 tyres, a bigger sway bar and lots of braces, but it really is uncomfortable on any time of road surface that is not billiard smooth. I'd kind of learned to put up with it then this thread got me thinking after a jaunt across london yesterday evening. I've set them up on the softest setting yet it is still too hard and control is very difficult at town speeds.
New shocks are now on my list
if you have turned your dampers soft then you are under-damped for your springs! if you don't have soft foam and/or progressive bumpstops then you will exacerbate the problem. the FM's are looow, especially at the back, where there is precious little suspension travel.Actually, the AGX/FM combo on my car is crap! Ok, I'm riding on 195/45 R14 tyres, a bigger sway bar and lots of braces, but it really is uncomfortable on any time of road surface that is not billiard smooth. I'd kind of learned to put up with it then this thread got me thinking after a jaunt across london yesterday evening. I've set them up on the softest setting yet it is still too hard and control is very difficult at town speeds.
New shocks are now on my list
i have kyb agx with eibach springs, powerflex soft foam bumpstops (long, so that they are constant contact and there is no take-up - these add to teh relatively low spring stiffness of the eibach springs) and FM ARB's (with the rear adjusted stiffer to recude the understeer from teh soft rear eibach compared to the FM spring). i'm pretty happy with it, loses a bit of composure round a poorly surfaced corner but generally the ride and handling is good.
if i were to upgrade, having read this thread now, those gold's are probably the items i'd go for, as using the 2.5" springs just opens up a massive range of options to you (you can choose exactly your own spring rate and length), tho i don't know if the dampers are adjustable for different springs. laz, i would suggest that these would be fairly highly track focussed. i was talking to paul sheard when i had a go in his max5 racer, and he was saying that pretty much every car in that series would have been running the 2.5" springs, and he was very suprised at just how soft my eibachs were.
Edited by skinny on Monday 22 December 16:36
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