Ford small block "302".
Discussion
There are 302 engines and 302 engines!!!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/FORD-NEW-69-70-71-NOS-BOSS...
Then there are 331 engines...
Then their is a Cleveland headed Boss 331 with alloy heads!!
http://www.fordracingpartsdirect.com/FORD_331_CUBI...
You will be tuning the old Buick for many years before you get anywhere near the output of these engines!!
You need to do your homework on the Boss 302??
As for the armchair mechanics...The 302 is one of the smallest V8's out there in terms of the dimensions that matter IE Width across the heads and hence exhaust ports It will fit very easily where a Rover once was and after you have fitted alloy heads, Alloy intake manifold, alloy water pump etc you will find that weight for weight you will be there or thereabouts the same as a Rover V8 with all the ancillary parts it carries...
If you really want to be anal about it you can also specify an alloy block but it then gets very expensive!!
This is a really mild build
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtjSkipj9kQ
and this is mine in all its cast iron finery...
Proper TVR's always had ford engines!!
And as for Chevy's...No TVR should be sullied with such a name
http://www.ebay.com/itm/FORD-NEW-69-70-71-NOS-BOSS...
Then there are 331 engines...
Then their is a Cleveland headed Boss 331 with alloy heads!!
http://www.fordracingpartsdirect.com/FORD_331_CUBI...
You will be tuning the old Buick for many years before you get anywhere near the output of these engines!!
You need to do your homework on the Boss 302??
As for the armchair mechanics...The 302 is one of the smallest V8's out there in terms of the dimensions that matter IE Width across the heads and hence exhaust ports It will fit very easily where a Rover once was and after you have fitted alloy heads, Alloy intake manifold, alloy water pump etc you will find that weight for weight you will be there or thereabouts the same as a Rover V8 with all the ancillary parts it carries...
If you really want to be anal about it you can also specify an alloy block but it then gets very expensive!!
This is a really mild build
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtjSkipj9kQ
and this is mine in all its cast iron finery...
Proper TVR's always had ford engines!!
And as for Chevy's...No TVR should be sullied with such a name
Edited by heightswitch on Wednesday 23 May 07:14
Edited by heightswitch on Wednesday 23 May 07:16
Alexdaredevilz said:
Am I right think the boss is a totally different breed?
4 bolt mains high revving race motor?
The boss 302 was homologated for Nascar in 70 - 72. lovely engine with cleveland heads, screw in core plugs,4 bolt mains big oil galleries and massive scope for further tuning. its a lovely thing but very much a hybrid and also very sought after.4 bolt mains high revving race motor?
a Nice 302 windsor with some nice bits and 350hp can be had for comparatively small beer compared to the cost of rover tuning.
N.
haircutmike said:
Unfortunately, I can't really afford to go LS, (I think) I really don't know the costs involved.
LS3 crate engine is about £4.5 new over here.. but you may to buy some ancilliaries and ECU... + the fitting issues.. but it's good a for a reliable 430bhp straight out the box (over 500 with heads + cam + remap I've heard)haircutmike said:
Probably right.
I have a tweaked 4.6 RV8 in my TVR Chimaera at the moment.
I love track days and it is on those that the old 4.6, even though it is pushing out 320ish Brake gets a bit out classed on the faster circuits.
Ideally, close to 400 brake at the rear wheels would be epic, is the realistically achievable?
The ford engine with the correct spec sounds like it's up to the job, stronger, slightly smaller, bell housing available to fit my T5 box and lots of tuning stuff out there.
Like a lot of guys, £ isn't endless and I need to seriously keep that in mind.
From my very limited knowledge there is a lot of variations and a lot to learn out there.
I could and probably will build an engine to suit eventually although if the right engine with a bit of history came along, that would be the far easier/quicker option!
The 302 is a 60's engine, it doesn't really offer up much over an RV8 in terms of bhp/litre, it just has more litres.I have a tweaked 4.6 RV8 in my TVR Chimaera at the moment.
I love track days and it is on those that the old 4.6, even though it is pushing out 320ish Brake gets a bit out classed on the faster circuits.
Ideally, close to 400 brake at the rear wheels would be epic, is the realistically achievable?
The ford engine with the correct spec sounds like it's up to the job, stronger, slightly smaller, bell housing available to fit my T5 box and lots of tuning stuff out there.
Like a lot of guys, £ isn't endless and I need to seriously keep that in mind.
From my very limited knowledge there is a lot of variations and a lot to learn out there.
I could and probably will build an engine to suit eventually although if the right engine with a bit of history came along, that would be the far easier/quicker option!
400rwhp n/a out of 302 would be difficult and expensive IMO. On the Mustang forums you hear wild claims of 302 outputs and normally it turns out 330hp crank is about what they make.
Remember the 302 made 120-225hp in stock trim, it was never a HP monster. Also there are lots of reports of split blocks when you get too carried away. You could go for an aftermarket Dart block and make good power, but you're talking ££££ again.
The 302 does super/turbocharge quite well and this way you can see an easier 400hp crank, maybe more if you want to spend on the engine too. But blowers are not cheap.
Have you considered a Lexus LS400 engine? You could custom fab a tubro setup to one or add a large nitrous shot without doing anywork to the engine.
A stock 302 is a bit of a dog. The heads are what hold it back.
Change them to some modern aftermarket heads like Twisted Wedges, AFRs, etc. and 500 Hp is there.
Which is about all the later, light weight roller cam block can stand anyway.
You'd have to be a bit thick in the noggin not to be able to extract 400 HP out of one.
Remember, you can also stroke the engine to 347 CI.
Here is a fun pic showing a Lotus Sport 300 head (now installed on my Esprit) compared with a Trick Flow Twisted Wedge head (still in my closet).
Change them to some modern aftermarket heads like Twisted Wedges, AFRs, etc. and 500 Hp is there.
Which is about all the later, light weight roller cam block can stand anyway.
You'd have to be a bit thick in the noggin not to be able to extract 400 HP out of one.
Remember, you can also stroke the engine to 347 CI.
Here is a fun pic showing a Lotus Sport 300 head (now installed on my Esprit) compared with a Trick Flow Twisted Wedge head (still in my closet).
Cledus Snow said:
The 302 in my Cougar had 230hp from the factory. and the 302 in the Shelby gt 350 had 300+ish hp.
By Shelby GT do you mean a 60's one? If so then I suspect it would be a SAE Gross figure and not comparable with today's ratings at all. And even if it was powerful it was likely a full out race engine in very limited production run and not what you'd realistically call a proper stock production motor.
I think the Fox Mustang Corba had 265hp or there abouts from a 302ci but only a limited production run and I think they where hand built.
300bhp/ton said:
Well I won't argue over 5hp or so in a different model. Early 1990's Mustang's where rated at 225hp, although Ford changed how they measured/rated the engines and a year later the same engine made only 215hp with no changes.
By Shelby GT do you mean a 60's one? If so then I suspect it would be a SAE Gross figure and not comparable with today's ratings at all. And even if it was powerful it was likely a full out race engine in very limited production run and not what you'd realistically call a proper stock production motor.
I think the Fox Mustang Corba had 265hp or there abouts from a 302ci but only a limited production run and I think they where hand built.
Early 90's 5.0 was 245hpBy Shelby GT do you mean a 60's one? If so then I suspect it would be a SAE Gross figure and not comparable with today's ratings at all. And even if it was powerful it was likely a full out race engine in very limited production run and not what you'd realistically call a proper stock production motor.
I think the Fox Mustang Corba had 265hp or there abouts from a 302ci but only a limited production run and I think they where hand built.
The 215 was made by the 4.6 modular engine SOHC replacement.
The Fox Cobra made 305...eventually after a recall.
The Cobra R, which is what you're referring to, was a 351 and made 300.
steviejasp said:
Or the yank v8's only add as much weight as a passenger over the rover...
1) a fat passenger2) a passenger doesn't reside in the engine bay normally.
As you already define turn-in response as a relative weak area (which IME it is), you want to take away weight from the front axle rather than add to it.
In this light I can't see the attraction in swapping a lightweight old-tech engine for a heavy old-tech engine. If you were drag racing, the cheapness and availability of hop-up parts might sway your decision towards American iron, but for a track day weapon you'll be ending up rather further from where you want to be.
Can imagine why the LS is a non-starter for you in a Chim - how about an AJP8 then? If I were focused on trackdays, that's where my money would be going; powerful and lighter than an RV8 [edit] oh, and add lightning throttle response which will stand you in a good light out of bends. It's not all about bhp and lbs.ft [/edit].
Edited by 900T-R on Tuesday 29th May 10:48
LuS1fer said:
Early 90's 5.0 was 245hp
The 215 was made by the 4.6 modular engine SOHC replacement.
The Fox Cobra made 305...eventually after a recall.
The Cobra R, which is what you're referring to, was a 351 and made 300.
In 87 the the 302/5.0 made 225hp in the Fox, in 93 they added new cast rather than forged pistons and changed something else minor. Wiki says 205hp, although I'm sure somewhere else I've read 215hp for circa 91-92 model years.The 215 was made by the 4.6 modular engine SOHC replacement.
The Fox Cobra made 305...eventually after a recall.
The Cobra R, which is what you're referring to, was a 351 and made 300.
The 94 4.6 in the sn95 was 215 I agree.
The Cobra I was thinking of actually made 235hp not 265hp, this was in 93. There was an 'R' version too but it had the same power.
The 94/5 Cobra R I didn't think of as it used a 5.8 litre motor. Although checking wiki it does seem there was a 302 version too making 240hp and probably the most powerful 'factory' 302ci.
Either way, as lovely as the 302 is, as a factory stock engine (even limited edition performance versions) they never even got close to 300hp.
i think what some forget on this forum is that there are people who like to tinker themselves and do things which are "affordable"..and more importantly look right under the bonnet.
Before getting into TVR's I used to play around with Ciobra replicas occasionally. The amount of tuned Rovers and TVR's we used to anhialate with an old nail of a 302 which had no other work other than a cam swap, intake swap, 4 barrel holley plonked on the top etc etc was just unreal...And this was an older engine which used to breath heavy due to piston blowby and valve leakage....
Anyhow. The point is that a good old 302 with not a lot of money spent on it can deliver very good power...case in point is my engine...£900 and supplied with most of the bits you see on it apart from the MSD and new Street avenger carb...Now OK the engine has had a full re-fresh and some more bits added but it is an honest 295 - 300hp engine for in real terms no money...
Anyone questioning the cost of parts and supply for american stuff couldn't have owned anything american..i often buy parts cheaper which are delivered faster than for most of my UK cars...it is a shame that the UK govt wants to screw you with VAT everytime and shipping is a bit pricey but still as cheap as chips when compared to UK overall...
The other big factor is that an old 60's lump does the job and looks right in the engine bay of a TVR...an LS engine looks more akin to a bendix washing machine with all of its injectors, wiring etc etc...
As for Old technology..I watched Baby Bertha fly round the track this weekend. at some 38 years old there wasn't much faster than it and guess what...it went around the corners too
The rover isn't a particularly good engine..it was chosen generally because of 1 reason..weight. sacrifice a bit of that with a 302 and the world is your oyster..The 302 is infact a very advanced engine when compared to the old Buick lump and considered a benchmark influencing modern engine design £ for £ much much cheaper to tune to well up to 400hp with good idle and total reliability..Something the rover won't do..
N.
Before getting into TVR's I used to play around with Ciobra replicas occasionally. The amount of tuned Rovers and TVR's we used to anhialate with an old nail of a 302 which had no other work other than a cam swap, intake swap, 4 barrel holley plonked on the top etc etc was just unreal...And this was an older engine which used to breath heavy due to piston blowby and valve leakage....
Anyhow. The point is that a good old 302 with not a lot of money spent on it can deliver very good power...case in point is my engine...£900 and supplied with most of the bits you see on it apart from the MSD and new Street avenger carb...Now OK the engine has had a full re-fresh and some more bits added but it is an honest 295 - 300hp engine for in real terms no money...
Anyone questioning the cost of parts and supply for american stuff couldn't have owned anything american..i often buy parts cheaper which are delivered faster than for most of my UK cars...it is a shame that the UK govt wants to screw you with VAT everytime and shipping is a bit pricey but still as cheap as chips when compared to UK overall...
The other big factor is that an old 60's lump does the job and looks right in the engine bay of a TVR...an LS engine looks more akin to a bendix washing machine with all of its injectors, wiring etc etc...
As for Old technology..I watched Baby Bertha fly round the track this weekend. at some 38 years old there wasn't much faster than it and guess what...it went around the corners too
The rover isn't a particularly good engine..it was chosen generally because of 1 reason..weight. sacrifice a bit of that with a 302 and the world is your oyster..The 302 is infact a very advanced engine when compared to the old Buick lump and considered a benchmark influencing modern engine design £ for £ much much cheaper to tune to well up to 400hp with good idle and total reliability..Something the rover won't do..
N.
heightswitch said:
Anyhow. The point is that a good old 302 with not a lot of money spent on it can deliver very good power...case in point is my engine...£900 and supplied with most of the bits you see on it apart from the MSD and new Street avenger carb..
Where did you get a good 302 for £900? I spent ages and ages looking for one at sensible money and eventually gave up and bough a Lexus LS400 engine to fit in my 86 T-Bird.blindswelledrat said:
.Now OK the engine has had a full re-fresh and some more bits added but it is an honest 295 - 300hp engine for in real terms no money...
How much is a refresh though? Plus the other bits you'd need to make the power? 300hp is good, but didn't the OP say they are already at this power level (or above) with their current RV8.blindswelledrat said:
The other big factor is that an old 60's lump does the job and looks right in the engine bay of a TVR...an LS engine looks more akin to a bendix washing machine with all of its injectors, wiring etc etc...
The LSx isn't as petty to look at, but GM Performance sell a carb conversion kit if you want to junk the electronics.blindswelledrat said:
The rover isn't a particularly good engine..it was chosen generally because of 1 reason..weight. sacrifice a bit of that with a 302 and the world is your oyster..The 302 is infact a very advanced engine when compared to the old Buick lump and considered a benchmark influencing modern engine design £ for £ much much cheaper to tune to well up to 400hp with good idle and total reliability..Something the rover won't do..
N.
Curious, but what about the 302 is advanced and which bits influenced modern design? I'm not asking to be difficult, I genuinely don't know and wouldn't mind learning. N.
heightswitch said:
Anyone questioning the cost of parts and supply for american stuff couldn't have owned anything american..i often buy parts cheaper which are delivered faster than for most of my UK cars...it is a shame that the UK govt wants to screw you with VAT everytime and shipping is a bit pricey but still as cheap as chips when compared to UK overall...
Which is basically what I said ...BUT
heightswitch said:
The rover isn't a particularly good engine..it was chosen generally because of 1 reason..weight.
Which is VERY important in a lightwqeight car, one that you want to optimise for track days and already has to give best to other cars on turn-in even when sorted... I can only guess that there's a fair bit of 'man maths' involved in considering to burden a lightish, front-engined track day car that's arguably already has more power than handling, with a boat anchor in front the driver. As for 'what looks right' - each to their own but a 1990s road car on carbs... to me that's like gas light in my new build apartment.
You have to strike a balance between power and weight.
Here's a quote from Teddy Mayer from Mclaren back in 1971, in an article about the '71 Can-Am season.
"...That was an Oldsmobile engined car. In fact, we ran Oldsmobile engines throughout '64 and '65 and I don't think it was until early 1966 that we decided we needed more muscle. We believed strongly at the time that a very light-weight car with reasonable power would be superior to a heavier car with considerably more power. We subsequently found out that, at least with regard to sports cars, we were wrong."
Zowie!
What were they thinking?
Here's a quote from Teddy Mayer from Mclaren back in 1971, in an article about the '71 Can-Am season.
"...That was an Oldsmobile engined car. In fact, we ran Oldsmobile engines throughout '64 and '65 and I don't think it was until early 1966 that we decided we needed more muscle. We believed strongly at the time that a very light-weight car with reasonable power would be superior to a heavier car with considerably more power. We subsequently found out that, at least with regard to sports cars, we were wrong."
Zowie!
What were they thinking?
Ever since reading Alex's thread on this I have to admit that I have been thinking about this. You can pick up a 300bhp+ 302 turnkey engine from the states for around $2500 but sadly I've no idea what the shipping costs are.
Also, what would be the best route with regards to the fuelling? Keep the carbs or fit a fuel injection system?
Also, what would be the best route with regards to the fuelling? Keep the carbs or fit a fuel injection system?
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