New Years resolution perhaps...
Discussion
...Classic Muscle Car for 2014???
Happy New Year all.
I've not posted here before and thought you might be able to humour me in my dilemma with what to replace the void left by my Monaro. It was a great car to drive with lots of power for those opportunities to get the back out with lots of tyre smoke (not that I'm a total hoonigan) but I'm wondering what American Classic could offer those thrills for around £10k. I'm after a nice rust free car with that proper muscle car/Cannonball Run/street racer/hot rod/custom appeal if you get my drift. I'm not asking a lot
I've seen a few 70-73 Mustang Mach1 Fastbacks (an acquired taste I know, but I like them) and they seem to be mostly autos... I've seen some nice Trans Ams/Firebirds, but again they are also predominantly autos and then I've seen a Plymouth Duster 360. Now this is ticking boxes, apart from the 245bhp figures seem a bit low down, but am I right in thinking that this will be a four speed manual? I've not got anything against autos, it's just that I like to be involved in the driving a bit more.
I assume I can (someone can) tune and modify this engine to produce some more tyre torturing horses?
I would be interested to hear your suggestions and the experiences you've had from the car you have. I don't know anyone who owns an American Classic apart from one chap on the HSV forum who drives 'Mental Betty' at our meets!!!
Happy New Year all.
I've not posted here before and thought you might be able to humour me in my dilemma with what to replace the void left by my Monaro. It was a great car to drive with lots of power for those opportunities to get the back out with lots of tyre smoke (not that I'm a total hoonigan) but I'm wondering what American Classic could offer those thrills for around £10k. I'm after a nice rust free car with that proper muscle car/Cannonball Run/street racer/hot rod/custom appeal if you get my drift. I'm not asking a lot
I've seen a few 70-73 Mustang Mach1 Fastbacks (an acquired taste I know, but I like them) and they seem to be mostly autos... I've seen some nice Trans Ams/Firebirds, but again they are also predominantly autos and then I've seen a Plymouth Duster 360. Now this is ticking boxes, apart from the 245bhp figures seem a bit low down, but am I right in thinking that this will be a four speed manual? I've not got anything against autos, it's just that I like to be involved in the driving a bit more.
I assume I can (someone can) tune and modify this engine to produce some more tyre torturing horses?
I would be interested to hear your suggestions and the experiences you've had from the car you have. I don't know anyone who owns an American Classic apart from one chap on the HSV forum who drives 'Mental Betty' at our meets!!!
There was a change in quoted hp in 1972 from gross to SAE ie from an engine on a bench with no ancillaries connected to an "in car".
Around this time, all the compression ratios fell like a stone to accommodate unleaded and power outputs plummeted too, some quite embarrassingly, although because of the gross/SAE change, the difference is harder to divine.
It is not particularly unusual, therefore to find an old classic with a transplanted newer engine so check the VINs.
Also worth decoding the VIN as cars are often a long way from how they rolled out of the factory eg my mate's Chevelle was a manual but is now an auto, much to his chagrin.
Nearly all these cars will drive badly compared to a modern, with sloppy steering and lots of roll and "period" braking. You should drive one first as you may not like it.
Mopars are good cars but the parts are harder to get.
Trans Ams/Camaros are one of the better handlers but like to rot (most cars of that era do, hell I had an 81 Mustang and the way that started to rust got on my nerves) but again, a pre 72 might be your best bet IF it has an original engine but remember they were pretty much designed to run on 5 star leaded fuel so make sure it's not a later engine or that it has hardened valves seats.
Obviously, later cars can be made to perform with new heads with hardened valves etc.
Finding a good car is hard as, in the US, the prices tend to be sky high for good cars and it's always going to be a balancing exercise between paying for a good one and buying a crappy one and spending huge amounts.
Around this time, all the compression ratios fell like a stone to accommodate unleaded and power outputs plummeted too, some quite embarrassingly, although because of the gross/SAE change, the difference is harder to divine.
It is not particularly unusual, therefore to find an old classic with a transplanted newer engine so check the VINs.
Also worth decoding the VIN as cars are often a long way from how they rolled out of the factory eg my mate's Chevelle was a manual but is now an auto, much to his chagrin.
Nearly all these cars will drive badly compared to a modern, with sloppy steering and lots of roll and "period" braking. You should drive one first as you may not like it.
Mopars are good cars but the parts are harder to get.
Trans Ams/Camaros are one of the better handlers but like to rot (most cars of that era do, hell I had an 81 Mustang and the way that started to rust got on my nerves) but again, a pre 72 might be your best bet IF it has an original engine but remember they were pretty much designed to run on 5 star leaded fuel so make sure it's not a later engine or that it has hardened valves seats.
Obviously, later cars can be made to perform with new heads with hardened valves etc.
Finding a good car is hard as, in the US, the prices tend to be sky high for good cars and it's always going to be a balancing exercise between paying for a good one and buying a crappy one and spending huge amounts.
Thanks for the info. Definitely some food for thought there.
Excuse my ignorance, but what's a Mopar car? I've heard the term used for various cars and assumed this was to do with tuning and modifying...?
Are there many cars that become available which are classics with the 'modern treatment', such as up-rated brakes, suspension and steering. I know that this takes them away from being the original classic, but this is the kind of thing I'm looking for.
Some cars I've seen are advertised as Pro-Street Racers and I like the look of some of those.
If I could find a good car to start with that has had some appropriate work/mods, I would happily invest in it over time to create something cool. I think that's where the fun is...
Excuse my ignorance, but what's a Mopar car? I've heard the term used for various cars and assumed this was to do with tuning and modifying...?
Are there many cars that become available which are classics with the 'modern treatment', such as up-rated brakes, suspension and steering. I know that this takes them away from being the original classic, but this is the kind of thing I'm looking for.
Some cars I've seen are advertised as Pro-Street Racers and I like the look of some of those.
If I could find a good car to start with that has had some appropriate work/mods, I would happily invest in it over time to create something cool. I think that's where the fun is...
GruFFnuTT said:
Thanks for the info. Definitely some food for thought there.
Excuse my ignorance, but what's a Mopar car? I've heard the term used for various cars and assumed this was to do with tuning and modifying...?
Are there many cars that become available which are classics with the 'modern treatment', such as up-rated brakes, suspension and steering. I know that this takes them away from being the original classic, but this is the kind of thing I'm looking for.
Some cars I've seen are advertised as Pro-Street Racers and I like the look of some of those.
If I could find a good car to start with that has had some appropriate work/mods, I would happily invest in it over time to create something cool. I think that's where the fun is...
Mopar is Chrysler/Dodge/Plymouth as opposed to GM and Ford brands. Being the lesser sellers, the parts cost more, if you can get them. My mate has had a Plymouth and a Dodge and now has a Chevelle as parts are easier.Excuse my ignorance, but what's a Mopar car? I've heard the term used for various cars and assumed this was to do with tuning and modifying...?
Are there many cars that become available which are classics with the 'modern treatment', such as up-rated brakes, suspension and steering. I know that this takes them away from being the original classic, but this is the kind of thing I'm looking for.
Some cars I've seen are advertised as Pro-Street Racers and I like the look of some of those.
If I could find a good car to start with that has had some appropriate work/mods, I would happily invest in it over time to create something cool. I think that's where the fun is...
Many classics have uprated parts available from the US but you do have to factor in shipping costs from the US and import duty and 20% VAT.
Pro-Street is a style which are often lowered with wider wheels etc and may feature uprated suspension.
The hardest thing is finding a car that hasn't become a collector's car and hence overpriced. The Chevelle is a good car if you can find one.
If you fancy something a little more sporty for which there is no end of uprated spare parts, then a fibreglass Corvette may be a good call for you, something like the 1967-1981 C3 (or even a later C4).
I've had Vettes but nothing particularly classic.
I deal more in generalities and any car should be extensively inspected, notably with a magnet.
You may get better advice on the Mustang from the forum on www.MOCGB.net and other more specialist forums like the Mopar one (not sure what that is, offhand).
It's impossible to give an opinion on any particular car as photos can lie really badly but someone on the forums may know the cars in question.
I'm also not going to be much help on values as I think "classics" are over-priced bangers in most cases. Quite a few years ago, i saw a big block corvette C3 at a local show for £13k which I would have been happy to recommend but you may find attending one of the many American car shows would be a more productive excercise as many come up for sale at "show time".
I deal more in generalities and any car should be extensively inspected, notably with a magnet.
You may get better advice on the Mustang from the forum on www.MOCGB.net and other more specialist forums like the Mopar one (not sure what that is, offhand).
It's impossible to give an opinion on any particular car as photos can lie really badly but someone on the forums may know the cars in question.
I'm also not going to be much help on values as I think "classics" are over-priced bangers in most cases. Quite a few years ago, i saw a big block corvette C3 at a local show for £13k which I would have been happy to recommend but you may find attending one of the many American car shows would be a more productive excercise as many come up for sale at "show time".
Haha, yeah I don't want to end up with a Polyfilla Banger or a money pit!!!
Thanks for the link, I'll check it out and will keep an eye on the Vettes too.
There's usually a good American Car meet down on Hayling Island in Hampshire which I've been to a few times, so I'll be getting my arse down there again this year if nothing decent crops up before then. I'm in no hurry, just bored not having a V8!!!
Cheers mate
Thanks for the link, I'll check it out and will keep an eye on the Vettes too.
There's usually a good American Car meet down on Hayling Island in Hampshire which I've been to a few times, so I'll be getting my arse down there again this year if nothing decent crops up before then. I'm in no hurry, just bored not having a V8!!!
Cheers mate
LuS1fer said:
Nearly all these cars will drive badly compared to a modern, with sloppy steering and lots of roll and "period" braking. You should drive one first as you may not like it.
This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^You really do have to drive one or better 2 or 3, they are like chalk & cheese compared to a modern car, you simply could not drive one 'hard'(without ££££££££ worth of modifications), except in a straight line
Well sir, this should be fun!
Should come to a V8UK event and sit in a few different cars and see what you think (unless of course you have bought one by the next one)
I started writing this reply then got lost on ebay for 40 mins haha so many nice classics out there at the moment, don't be afraid to get a nice running motor then tune it up, 350 chevys are very good for tuning with tons and tons of after market parts.
Really the best thing to do is, look for a car you like the look of then hunt for a decent one of them!
Should come to a V8UK event and sit in a few different cars and see what you think (unless of course you have bought one by the next one)
I started writing this reply then got lost on ebay for 40 mins haha so many nice classics out there at the moment, don't be afraid to get a nice running motor then tune it up, 350 chevys are very good for tuning with tons and tons of after market parts.
Really the best thing to do is, look for a car you like the look of then hunt for a decent one of them!
67roofchop said:
Well sir, this should be fun!
Should come to a V8UK event and sit in a few different cars and see what you think (unless of course you have bought one by the next one)
I started writing this reply then got lost on ebay for 40 mins haha so many nice classics out there at the moment, don't be afraid to get a nice running motor then tune it up, 350 chevys are very good for tuning with tons and tons of after market parts.
Really the best thing to do is, look for a car you like the look of then hunt for a decent one of them!
I hope it will be fun searching, looking and learning.Should come to a V8UK event and sit in a few different cars and see what you think (unless of course you have bought one by the next one)
I started writing this reply then got lost on ebay for 40 mins haha so many nice classics out there at the moment, don't be afraid to get a nice running motor then tune it up, 350 chevys are very good for tuning with tons and tons of after market parts.
Really the best thing to do is, look for a car you like the look of then hunt for a decent one of them!
Funnily enough, I went to the V8UK Summer BBQ at Insane Creations and saw some proper Dragsters and Hot Rods there. There was a young lad there who brought along a rather nice Mustang. In fact I think I've got a photo of it:
And also a few others...
It's easy to get lost in the classifieds isn't it...
I'm hoping something will crop up that will suit me down to the ground or else I may have to go and get another Monaro before I forget how to drive!?
Hi, you say you would like the involvement of a 4 speed, well unless you get something that has been converted to a modern manual you will find it rather agricultural in comparison to what you are used to, don't get me wrong an "A" body Mopar with a stick shift can be the most fun you can have with your clothes on, but living with it on a daily basis can be hard work (especially on your left leg). The Duster you are thinking about is an auto anyway, I think it's a nice car apart from the fact that it's a '74. Pretty much anything post '72 is less desirable & therefore lower value, '73 model year was when the impact bumpers started & the cars got uglier, this along with all the smog regs killed off the era of the musclecar.
As said you really need to drive a few to see if it's something you are happy to live with. I've had literally dozens of muscle cars over the years & as long as you are realistic in your expectations they can be great fun & amazing performance (in a relatively straight line) can be had with very little depreciation.
As said you really need to drive a few to see if it's something you are happy to live with. I've had literally dozens of muscle cars over the years & as long as you are realistic in your expectations they can be great fun & amazing performance (in a relatively straight line) can be had with very little depreciation.
Luckily, it won't be an every day car so I 'don't think' I'll mind an agricultural feel too much.
Are the autos still fun to drive? I suppose I could always look at getting a manual conversion done at a later date since decent manuals are rare, but on the other hand changing gears with your right hand will be one less thing to worry about in an auto left hooker.
Yeah that Duster is really nice. It's had a bare metal paint job but only has 245Bhp which isn't very good. The engine bay is a bit rough looking too.
From what I've read, the Green Mustang is supposed to have 285Bhp as standard and has had uprated parts from an engine rebuild (cams, carbs, inlet manifold etc...) No idea what it's running now, but even 285Bhp for a big lump like that isn't going to blow the doors off. I'm still kind of liking this green machine the best (even though it's over budget) and it will be the first one I go to see for a benchmark.
This green Mustang is a '73 so will its performance have been affected by the compression drops of the period or was 285Bhp for the Cleveland lump pretty standard across the board?
The yellow one is a '71 Barn Find??? I'm waiting to hear back from the owner about it... Looks like it's got some weird side exit exhausts going on... Could be fun!?
What figures should I be expecting in general from a pre '72 muscle car then? 300-350 Bhp?
Also found a Gran Torino, but think the Starsky and Hutch paintjob is a bit too much for me!?
Are the autos still fun to drive? I suppose I could always look at getting a manual conversion done at a later date since decent manuals are rare, but on the other hand changing gears with your right hand will be one less thing to worry about in an auto left hooker.
Yeah that Duster is really nice. It's had a bare metal paint job but only has 245Bhp which isn't very good. The engine bay is a bit rough looking too.
From what I've read, the Green Mustang is supposed to have 285Bhp as standard and has had uprated parts from an engine rebuild (cams, carbs, inlet manifold etc...) No idea what it's running now, but even 285Bhp for a big lump like that isn't going to blow the doors off. I'm still kind of liking this green machine the best (even though it's over budget) and it will be the first one I go to see for a benchmark.
This green Mustang is a '73 so will its performance have been affected by the compression drops of the period or was 285Bhp for the Cleveland lump pretty standard across the board?
The yellow one is a '71 Barn Find??? I'm waiting to hear back from the owner about it... Looks like it's got some weird side exit exhausts going on... Could be fun!?
What figures should I be expecting in general from a pre '72 muscle car then? 300-350 Bhp?
Also found a Gran Torino, but think the Starsky and Hutch paintjob is a bit too much for me!?
GruFFnuTT said:
Luckily, it won't be an every day car so I 'don't think' I'll mind an agricultural feel too much.
Are the autos still fun to drive? I suppose I could always look at getting a manual conversion done at a later date since decent manuals are rare, but on the other hand changing gears with your right hand will be one less thing to worry about in an auto left hooker.
Yeah that Duster is really nice. It's had a bare metal paint job but only has 245Bhp which isn't very good. The engine bay is a bit rough looking too.
From what I've read, the Green Mustang is supposed to have 285Bhp as standard and has had uprated parts from an engine rebuild (cams, carbs, inlet manifold etc...) No idea what it's running now, but even 285Bhp for a big lump like that isn't going to blow the doors off. I'm still kind of liking this green machine the best (even though it's over budget) and it will be the first one I go to see for a benchmark.
This green Mustang is a '73 so will its performance have been affected by the compression drops of the period or was 285Bhp for the Cleveland lump pretty standard across the board?
The yellow one is a '71 Barn Find??? I'm waiting to hear back from the owner about it... Looks like it's got some weird side exit exhausts going on... Could be fun!?
What figures should I be expecting in general from a pre '72 muscle car then? 300-350 Bhp?
Also found a Gran Torino, but think the Starsky and Hutch paintjob is a bit too much for me!?
I wouldent get too hung up about horse power !!first stage is get the car then tune or fit the motor of your choice Are the autos still fun to drive? I suppose I could always look at getting a manual conversion done at a later date since decent manuals are rare, but on the other hand changing gears with your right hand will be one less thing to worry about in an auto left hooker.
Yeah that Duster is really nice. It's had a bare metal paint job but only has 245Bhp which isn't very good. The engine bay is a bit rough looking too.
From what I've read, the Green Mustang is supposed to have 285Bhp as standard and has had uprated parts from an engine rebuild (cams, carbs, inlet manifold etc...) No idea what it's running now, but even 285Bhp for a big lump like that isn't going to blow the doors off. I'm still kind of liking this green machine the best (even though it's over budget) and it will be the first one I go to see for a benchmark.
This green Mustang is a '73 so will its performance have been affected by the compression drops of the period or was 285Bhp for the Cleveland lump pretty standard across the board?
The yellow one is a '71 Barn Find??? I'm waiting to hear back from the owner about it... Looks like it's got some weird side exit exhausts going on... Could be fun!?
What figures should I be expecting in general from a pre '72 muscle car then? 300-350 Bhp?
Also found a Gran Torino, but think the Starsky and Hutch paintjob is a bit too much for me!?
And build the car to suit your use , so smaller car say camaro ,mustang ,nova etc with a hi reving small block for street and circuit
or A bigger muscle car like Chevelle ,GTO roadrunner ,Charger ,galaxy etc with a big block for sledge hammer performance auto v man unless you are going to spend on a modern manual box the old manuals are truly awfull heavy clutch and clunky change they realy take the fun out of ownership esp in trafic personally it would be auto every time unless I was building a circuit only car, remember these are real drivers cars meaning they take some driving with vague steering tiny brakes that fade and rudimentary suspension ,lots of fun and builds up car control skills and an understanding of what a car does when pushed..
Edited by powerstroke on Friday 3rd January 08:11
As powerstroke says, don't worry about quoted figures unless it's from a recent dyno test. What it left the factory with will have very little bearing on what it's making now, could be a lot more, could be a lot less depending on what's left of the original motor & not many left original now. As to the auto/manual choice I'm with PS on that too, an auto with either a good shift kit (reprograms the shift points & firmness) or full manual valve body (does what it says on the can) can give you a car that will still chirp the tyres as it shifts into high gear at ***leptons.
Cheers Chaps. All good advice, thanks.
I'm getting the feeling that what I'm looking for is not going to crop up on the PH Classifieds, eBay or Car & Classics unless I'm very lucky and I can already feel my budget quickly disappearing out of the window as I now look across the pond! Uh-oh, I smell import costs!?
In the meantime, I'm gonna look forward to getting to some meets/shows so I can see what's about and the possibilities available.
Just out of interest, do many people drop in newer engines into their classics (LS, HEMI, Ford Racing) or is that not 'the done thing' really over here? I know that is has been done many times and I've seen a classic Monaro with a modern Supercharged Chevvy lump in it at a meet which was impressive; a real sleeper!!! I suppose the original blocks still offer huge performance opportunities...
I'm getting the feeling that what I'm looking for is not going to crop up on the PH Classifieds, eBay or Car & Classics unless I'm very lucky and I can already feel my budget quickly disappearing out of the window as I now look across the pond! Uh-oh, I smell import costs!?
In the meantime, I'm gonna look forward to getting to some meets/shows so I can see what's about and the possibilities available.
Just out of interest, do many people drop in newer engines into their classics (LS, HEMI, Ford Racing) or is that not 'the done thing' really over here? I know that is has been done many times and I've seen a classic Monaro with a modern Supercharged Chevvy lump in it at a meet which was impressive; a real sleeper!!! I suppose the original blocks still offer huge performance opportunities...
just a thought but have you considered a half way house like a 4th gen Camaro. Yes I am completely biased, as Im on my third, but you do get some of the classic 'crudeness' with a big rumby V8. circa 300 bhp (a little more or less model dependent).
Manuals are OK, as are negotiating corners. Brakes are just poor as opposed to dangerous!
Like you I fancied a 'proper' muscle car, but the combination of cost and the reality put me off.
Manuals are OK, as are negotiating corners. Brakes are just poor as opposed to dangerous!
Like you I fancied a 'proper' muscle car, but the combination of cost and the reality put me off.
balls-out said:
just a thought but have you considered a half way house like a 4th gen Camaro. Yes I am completely biased, as Im on my third, but you do get some of the classic 'crudeness' with a big rumby V8. circa 300 bhp (a little more or less model dependent).
Manuals are OK, as are negotiating corners. Brakes are just poor as opposed to dangerous!
Like you I fancied a 'proper' muscle car, but the combination of cost and the reality put me off.
Yeah, I have considered something slightly newer (also Corvette C4/C5), but then it's not going to be much different from getting another Monaro (Pontiac GTO). Plus the missus likes the idea of a classic for a change... BONUS!!! Manuals are OK, as are negotiating corners. Brakes are just poor as opposed to dangerous!
Like you I fancied a 'proper' muscle car, but the combination of cost and the reality put me off.
The proper classic feel really appeals to me and I'm guessing there will be a sense of occassion with each drive. I may completely change my mind as the 'reality' sets in, but I'm hoping to either be pleasantly suprised or in a situation where I like the car so much that I can forgive it it's characteristics... We'll see
GruFFnuTT said:
Yeah, I have considered something slightly newer (also Corvette C4/C5), but then it's not going to be much different from getting another Monaro (Pontiac GTO). Plus the missus likes the idea of a classic for a change... BONUS!!!
The proper classic feel really appeals to me and I'm guessing there will be a sense of occassion with each drive. I may completely change my mind as the 'reality' sets in, but I'm hoping to either be pleasantly suprised or in a situation where I like the car so much that I can forgive it it's characteristics... We'll see
Yes - I can see that, then go for it and let us know.The proper classic feel really appeals to me and I'm guessing there will be a sense of occassion with each drive. I may completely change my mind as the 'reality' sets in, but I'm hoping to either be pleasantly suprised or in a situation where I like the car so much that I can forgive it it's characteristics... We'll see
Has your Mrs enjoyed the delights of the plastic seats and high quality fittings? be interesting to hear if her enthusiasm persists.
balls-out said:
Has your Mrs enjoyed the delights of the plastic seats and high quality fittings? be interesting to hear if her enthusiasm persists.
Haha, by that time it'll be too late!!! I'll keep you guys posted on what I go and see. Think I'm definitely going to the need the advice of people in the know!!!
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