The general concensus on Breitling
Discussion
andy_s said:
In-house 
Have you ever thought about going to the more obscure/exotic watches/smaller makers or are you a Patek Philiperisti (or whatever you guys are called
)
Lange & Sohne make some absolutely wonderful watches, perhaps even exceeding the quality of PP as do Breguet so yes, I think about it all the time. Have you ever thought about going to the more obscure/exotic watches/smaller makers or are you a Patek Philiperisti (or whatever you guys are called
)
But the thing with PP is that, at this level of (frankly insane) money, you need to be sure that the value will not evaporate and that you will not get hosed with depreciation.... PP is the safest bet on that front. There's no question you pay a premium for it but then the "badge" secures the ££££.
Here's my 5170j (yes I know it's yellow gold
but....I like it!!!):
Murcielago_Boy said:
Lange & Sohne make some absolutely wonderful watches, perhaps even exceeding the quality of PP as do Breguet so yes, I think about it all the time.
But the thing with PP is that, at this level of (frankly insane) money, you need to be sure that the value will not evaporate and that you will not get hosed with depreciation.... PP is the safest bet on that front. There's no question you pay a premium for it but then the "badge" secures the ££££.
Here's my 5170j (yes I know it's yellow gold but....I like it!!!):
L&S even make me dribble, and I'm not sure I know enough to appreciate the ultra-high end of the market. Can't fault you logic on the PP front though, in some cases it seems to be a very safe place to put your cash, and I'm all for that as far as watches are concerned. But the thing with PP is that, at this level of (frankly insane) money, you need to be sure that the value will not evaporate and that you will not get hosed with depreciation.... PP is the safest bet on that front. There's no question you pay a premium for it but then the "badge" secures the ££££.
Here's my 5170j (yes I know it's yellow gold
but....I like it!!!):Breguet is a funny old one, many fans on here and elsewhere, interesting that when they were bought by Swatch it didn't seem to detract, (nor should it have done), from the name despite losing their only recently reacquired in-house abilities and people like Roth, (who had already brought the phoenix from the ashes 17 years earlier when Breguet was again a shell owned by a French jewellers); at the start of the Swatch period they had no in-house abilities at all, so when Lemania was also eventually bought up by Invest Corps/Swatch it seemed natural to put a company that primarily made movements with a company that had lost its ability to do this. Lemania was subsumed into Breguet and although now one happy family it's interesting to think that there is a link between the everyday Omega/Tissots and the highly acclaimed Breguet... (Look at the XXI centre minute chronograph for a hint of Lemania DNA
). Mind you, Lemania was no stranger to the high-end, providing movements to PP and UN at various stages as well, so perhaps a fitting resting place within a great name manufacturer.I hope that doesn't come across as derogatory as it's not meant to; Breguet certainly produce some extremely good watches and fully merit their number 6 slot in the PH pantheon of manufacturers.
Great post there Murcielago boy.
Gotta love the logic when you reckon that a hundred grand watch is a sensible purchase
I get it though, as preposterous the notion in isolation is, it DOES make a lot of financial sense, although I'd like to think you're listening to your heart and not JUST your head...
I'm curious about the values of AL & S versus Patek though, the Zeitwerk, for example, I can't see losing much, if anything.
Gotta love the logic when you reckon that a hundred grand watch is a sensible purchase
I get it though, as preposterous the notion in isolation is, it DOES make a lot of financial sense, although I'd like to think you're listening to your heart and not JUST your head...
I'm curious about the values of AL & S versus Patek though, the Zeitwerk, for example, I can't see losing much, if anything.
Talking about Lemania and Breguet, include Ebel as well
http://www.chronometrie.com/chronomovs/cm03.html
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&...
http://www.chronometrie.com/chronomovs/cm03.html
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&...
ApexJimi said:
Great post there Murcielago boy.
Gotta love the logic when you reckon that a hundred grand watch is a sensible purchase
I get it though, as preposterous the notion in isolation is, it DOES make a lot of financial sense, although I'd like to think you're listening to your heart and not JUST your head...
I'm curious about the values of AL & S versus Patek though, the Zeitwerk, for example, I can't see losing much, if anything.
Believe me mate, the idea of a watch costing this kind of money is frankly ludicrous in anyone's world. So any logic which helps the justification of purchase is very valuable indeed! Gotta love the logic when you reckon that a hundred grand watch is a sensible purchase
I get it though, as preposterous the notion in isolation is, it DOES make a lot of financial sense, although I'd like to think you're listening to your heart and not JUST your head...
I'm curious about the values of AL & S versus Patek though, the Zeitwerk, for example, I can't see losing much, if anything.
I can assure you however that these purchases, at least for me, a MINIMUM of 85% heart and 15% head. I've always loved watches since I was kid so it's kind of natural at this stage of my life that my curiosity drove me to purchase what is supposed to be the very best of the best - Patek Philippe.The financial arguments though can be compelling enough by themselves. The list price of my chrono above has gone up by some 18% this year alone - that's not to say that I have not lost money (I wonder about the trade in value today
) but I reckon the downside has been reduced.....The old 5070 manual wind chronograph that precedes my manual wind chrono, started life at around £22k - they trade for anywhere between £43k-£50k today. Meanwhile our cash gets inflated away at some 6%....AL & S are soo compelling but I'm just to chicken 5hit to pull myself away from PP for the financial arguments above.... will they be around in 15 years? Will they able to service them in 20 years? What are their auction results like? As the costs go up, the pieces need to make sense on **every** level because sadly I'm not rich enough not to care.....
andy_s said:
L&S even make me dribble, and I'm not sure I know enough to appreciate the ultra-high end of the market. Can't fault you logic on the PP front though, in some cases it seems to be a very safe place to put your cash, and I'm all for that as far as watches are concerned.
Breguet is a funny old one, many fans on here and elsewhere, interesting that when they were bought by Swatch it didn't seem to detract, (nor should it have done), from the name despite losing their only recently reacquired in-house abilities and people like Roth, (who had already brought the phoenix from the ashes 17 years earlier when Breguet was again a shell owned by a French jewellers); at the start of the Swatch period they had no in-house abilities at all, so when Lemania was also eventually bought up by Invest Corps/Swatch it seemed natural to put a company that primarily made movements with a company that had lost its ability to do this. Lemania was subsumed into Breguet and although now one happy family it's interesting to think that there is a link between the everyday Omega/Tissots and the highly acclaimed Breguet... (Look at the XXI centre minute chronograph for a hint of Lemania DNA ). Mind you, Lemania was no stranger to the high-end, providing movements to PP and UN at various stages as well, so perhaps a fitting resting place within a great name manufacturer.
I hope that doesn't come across as derogatory as it's not meant to; Breguet certainly produce some extremely good watches and fully merit their number 6 slot in the PH pantheon of manufacturers.
You put them as low as 6th??! Wow! I rate them higher than that!Breguet is a funny old one, many fans on here and elsewhere, interesting that when they were bought by Swatch it didn't seem to detract, (nor should it have done), from the name despite losing their only recently reacquired in-house abilities and people like Roth, (who had already brought the phoenix from the ashes 17 years earlier when Breguet was again a shell owned by a French jewellers); at the start of the Swatch period they had no in-house abilities at all, so when Lemania was also eventually bought up by Invest Corps/Swatch it seemed natural to put a company that primarily made movements with a company that had lost its ability to do this. Lemania was subsumed into Breguet and although now one happy family it's interesting to think that there is a link between the everyday Omega/Tissots and the highly acclaimed Breguet... (Look at the XXI centre minute chronograph for a hint of Lemania DNA
). Mind you, Lemania was no stranger to the high-end, providing movements to PP and UN at various stages as well, so perhaps a fitting resting place within a great name manufacturer.I hope that doesn't come across as derogatory as it's not meant to; Breguet certainly produce some extremely good watches and fully merit their number 6 slot in the PH pantheon of manufacturers.
Breguet IMO are the only company with the heritage and name to topple PP from the top. I reckon high end Richard Mille etc will look quite painfully dated some years from now. Audemars and others have gone for the "rapper" end of the market leaving Breguet with both the quality and the heritage. Lange dont have the sexiness but my God, they build fabulous watches.. I wait to see what happens with them... they're like PP were some 25 years ago.
I think the Swatch CEO Hayek has invested big time in the Breguet brand and the pieces are moving for sure - beyond that, they're gorgeous too. I LOVE the Marine, and "La Tradition" and the finish on most of their pieces is mind blowing...
Interesting how Lemania were suppliers to so many big watch names....Old school PP owners bang on about how these Lemania pieces will be the one to treasure going forward but I'm not sure. Is a Rolls Royce a lesser car if it has an engine shared by Ferrari, Bentley and Mercedes?
So many watches and so little cash!!!
Murcielago_Boy said:
You put them as low as 6th??! Wow! I rate them higher than that!
Breguet IMO are the only company with the heritage and name to topple PP from the top. I reckon high end Richard Mille etc will look quite painfully dated some years from now. Audemars and others have gone for the "rapper" end of the market leaving Breguet with both the quality and the heritage. Lange dont have the sexiness but my God, they build fabulous watches.. I wait to see what happens with them... they're like PP were some 25 years ago.
I think the Swatch CEO Hayek has invested big time in the Breguet brand and the pieces are moving for sure - beyond that, they're gorgeous too. I LOVE the Marine, and "La Tradition" and the finish on most of their pieces is mind blowing...
Interesting how Lemania were suppliers to so many big watch names....Old school PP owners bang on about how these Lemania pieces will be the one to treasure going forward but I'm not sure. Is a Rolls Royce a lesser car if it has an engine shared by Ferrari, Bentley and Mercedes?
So many watches and so little cash!!!
Noooo - I wouldn't know where to begin in the ratings war, it was just the concensus on a thread a few months ago (I think it was the same over at TZ-UK, but what do we/they know anyway! Breguet IMO are the only company with the heritage and name to topple PP from the top. I reckon high end Richard Mille etc will look quite painfully dated some years from now. Audemars and others have gone for the "rapper" end of the market leaving Breguet with both the quality and the heritage. Lange dont have the sexiness but my God, they build fabulous watches.. I wait to see what happens with them... they're like PP were some 25 years ago.
I think the Swatch CEO Hayek has invested big time in the Breguet brand and the pieces are moving for sure - beyond that, they're gorgeous too. I LOVE the Marine, and "La Tradition" and the finish on most of their pieces is mind blowing...
Interesting how Lemania were suppliers to so many big watch names....Old school PP owners bang on about how these Lemania pieces will be the one to treasure going forward but I'm not sure. Is a Rolls Royce a lesser car if it has an engine shared by Ferrari, Bentley and Mercedes?
So many watches and so little cash!!!
)No doubt about it that Breguet has been carefully tended by Hayek, he's invested time and effort to get them back to where they should be without a doubt and given them enough of their own leeway to develop; perhaps the cynical think this is a purely business motivated grooming and group positioning, but I think he genuinely has a soft spot for them.
I would imagine the Lemania movement PPs would hold value, just from an economics/scarcity/supply/demand point of view rather than actual quality or lack of. It's a bit of a niche ridden game this watch business, a bit like an El Primo Daytona - it's a bit of an unusual version with historical connotations so the price jumps ahead of the normal ones. Perhaps that's what they mean, or perhaps I'm talking rubbish again...
Lange are so very nice, even a dullard like me can see they are something really special, I like F. P. Journe too, but it's a bit academic in my shoes really!
ETA
Links to the PH top 20 - http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...
And a similar thread - http://pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f...
Edited by andy_s on Wednesday 2nd November 17:23
NJH said:
Well the top 3 is pretty easy as its often refered to as the holy trinity of swiss watches;
Patek Phillipe, Audemars Piquet, Vacheron Constantine.
That's the traditional view though, and certainly predates the resurgence of Lange - if you read the thread linked above, I argued that they should no longer be the top 3.Patek Phillipe, Audemars Piquet, Vacheron Constantine.
It is and its not my view its just the way the 'ranking' or whatever it is works. My personal opinion is that in reality most of this heirarchy stuff is based in mythology as in long gone history and rampant marketing. When you can get a really nice secondhand JLC for less than 3 grand it makes some of the numbers asked for the 'holy trinity' or whatever look quite ridicolous, although like JLC Vacheron are also much cheaper secondhand. Rolex Daytona or secondhand VC overseas chronograph for example?
BTW I bought and sold a really nice several year old Zenith el primero chronograph earlier this year for 1300 quid. Another one that makes many of the prices asked look absurd.
BTW I bought and sold a really nice several year old Zenith el primero chronograph earlier this year for 1300 quid. Another one that makes many of the prices asked look absurd.
NJH said:
It is and its not my view its just the way the 'ranking' or whatever it is works. My personal opinion is that in reality most of this heirarchy stuff is based in mythology as in long gone history and rampant marketing. When you can get a really nice secondhand JLC for less than 3 grand it makes some of the numbers asked for the 'holy trinity' or whatever look quite ridicolous, although like JLC Vacheron are also much cheaper secondhand. Rolex Daytona or secondhand VC overseas chronograph for example?
BTW I bought and sold a really nice several year old Zenith el primero chronograph earlier this year for 1300 quid. Another one that makes many of the prices asked look absurd.
I think I agree with you, but when I started that thread I set out the criteria by which I was creating a ranked list, and second-hand value wasn't part of it. I actually like the fact that makers such as J-LC and Zenith are slightly less well regarded in the used market - it makes owning them much more achievable, plus I actually far prefer them over some of the more popular (ie high retained value) brands. BTW I bought and sold a really nice several year old Zenith el primero chronograph earlier this year for 1300 quid. Another one that makes many of the prices asked look absurd.
tertius said:
I think I agree with you, but when I started that thread I set out the criteria by which I was creating a ranked list, and second-hand value wasn't part of it. I actually like the fact that makers such as J-LC and Zenith are slightly less well regarded in the used market - it makes owning them much more achievable, plus I actually far prefer them over some of the more popular (ie high retained value) brands.
Interesting and fair view I suppose. My top four:1. Patek Philippe = Lange & Sohne
3. Breguet
4. Vacheron Constantin
With the new Pateks sporting in-house movements with quite incredible accuracy, functions, quality controls, and finish, (yes, I know I'm biased but) I still believe they make the finest watches in the world. BUT Lange are just as good actually. With any of the above four, wearing one really does feel like you're wearing a little engine on your wrist manufactured **without compromise.** That's what I love about them.
Simply don't know enough about JLC to make a judgement either way - can't stand the ROO Audemars etc.
Murcielago_Boy said:
tertius said:
I think I agree with you, but when I started that thread I set out the criteria by which I was creating a ranked list, and second-hand value wasn't part of it. I actually like the fact that makers such as J-LC and Zenith are slightly less well regarded in the used market - it makes owning them much more achievable, plus I actually far prefer them over some of the more popular (ie high retained value) brands.
Interesting and fair view I suppose. My top four:1. Patek Philippe = Lange & Sohne
3. Breguet
4. Vacheron Constantin
With the new Pateks sporting in-house movements with quite incredible accuracy, functions, quality controls, and finish, (yes, I know I'm biased but) I still believe they make the finest watches in the world. BUT Lange are just as good actually. With any of the above four, wearing one really does feel like you're wearing a little engine on your wrist manufactured **without compromise.** That's what I love about them.
Simply don't know enough about JLC to make a judgement either way - can't stand the ROO Audemars etc.
Original thread: http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...
Murcielago_Boy said:
Lange & Sohne make some absolutely wonderful watches, perhaps even exceeding the quality of PP as do Breguet so yes, I think about it all the time.
But the thing with PP is that, at this level of (frankly insane) money, you need to be sure that the value will not evaporate and that you will not get hosed with depreciation.... PP is the safest bet on that front. There's no question you pay a premium for it but then the "badge" secures the ££££.
Here's my 5170j (yes I know it's yellow gold but....I like it!!!):
PP make some superb watches, but also some aesthetically challenged one's... glad you like that...(certainly not for me). But the thing with PP is that, at this level of (frankly insane) money, you need to be sure that the value will not evaporate and that you will not get hosed with depreciation.... PP is the safest bet on that front. There's no question you pay a premium for it but then the "badge" secures the ££££.
Here's my 5170j (yes I know it's yellow gold
but....I like it!!!):Was sent the PP magazine this week and they had this little number in there....5208. Sublime, and a snip at $925,000
Edited by Robbo66 on Thursday 3rd November 15:56
tertius said:
It would make more sense to have this discussion in the "top20" thread really, but for me the fact that even PP (and VC and AP and Breguet) either have or still do buy in some movements, that the only manufacture to have supplied all of the "Big 4" is J-LC; that J-LC helped AL&S to develop their current range of complications; that J-LC are, in my view, more innovative and creative in movement development than anyone else; that J-LC make all their movements (including quartz) in house; and that J-LC make an incredible range for a relatively tiny manufacture means I place J-LC above all others.
Original thread: http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...
You are Cyberface and I claim my $925,000!Original thread: http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...
andy_s said:
tertius said:
It would make more sense to have this discussion in the "top20" thread really, but for me the fact that even PP (and VC and AP and Breguet) either have or still do buy in some movements, that the only manufacture to have supplied all of the "Big 4" is J-LC; that J-LC helped AL&S to develop their current range of complications; that J-LC are, in my view, more innovative and creative in movement development than anyone else; that J-LC make all their movements (including quartz) in house; and that J-LC make an incredible range for a relatively tiny manufacture means I place J-LC above all others.
Original thread: http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...
You are Cyberface and I claim my $925,000!Original thread: http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...
Robbo66 said:
PP make some superb watches, but also some aesthetically challenged one's... glad you like that...(certainly not for me).
Was sent the PP magazine this week and they had this little number in there....5208. Sublime, and a snip at $925,000
I've got a far more subtle 5205 too which may be more your style...Was sent the PP magazine this week and they had this little number in there....5208. Sublime, and a snip at $925,000
Edited by Robbo66 on Thursday 3rd November 15:56
But I like to wear yellow gold - on dark skin it just works a bit better and the Patek manual wind chrono is a legend in it's own right - always loved it.
That one you've pointed out, the 5208, is an "application piece" (namely you've got to have a few BIG pieces just to be eligible to get it) - it can take as long as 3 years to make and it's price on delivery.
By the time it lands I reckon it'll be over £800,000.
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