Advice needed - Sub - v- sub-alike
Discussion
38911 said:
SVS said:
Buy a £500 Steinhart, wear it every day and in five years time it could be worth £250-300.
Don't be daft, of course it won't.
Seriously though, I bought a Steinhart as at the time I couldn't justify £3500 on a s/h Sub from Watchfinder. I no longer have the desire to spend on a Rolex because it's a Rolex. I'm quite happy with my Ocean 1 Vintage Red, it 'feels' like a quality product and shows decent accuracy. If I want to wear a 'brand' watch with a heritage I get out my Speed Master.
38911 said:
kazste said:
Not strictly correct though is it to say that it's designed to be worn everyday in this case.
Don't get me wrong I agree it's a tool watch, but if the plan is to not lose money should it need to be sold then you couldn't use it as a too, watch as its not a comex version and patina on a five year old sub is just classed as wear which will reduce the price you can sell it for fairly significantly. This is before you even think about potential damage caused by everyday wear.
Put it this way. Don't get me wrong I agree it's a tool watch, but if the plan is to not lose money should it need to be sold then you couldn't use it as a too, watch as its not a comex version and patina on a five year old sub is just classed as wear which will reduce the price you can sell it for fairly significantly. This is before you even think about potential damage caused by everyday wear.
Spend £500 on a Steinhart, wear it every day and in five years time you've got a worn out watch that nobody wants and is worth next to nothing.
Spend £3,500 on a used Rolex, wear it every day and in five years time send it to Rolex for a £300 service and it comes back looking like new and ready for another few decades of use.... and is almost certainly worth more than you paid for it.... and you've had the pleasure of wearing a Rolex instead of a copy.
The Steinhart will still be worth £150 ish in 5 years time – that's not "next to nothing".
The servicing cost, presently, of a Rolex Sub is circa £400, and who knows how much it'll be in 5 years time.
The days of making a profit on Rolex are all but over – so the old "worth more than you paid" chestnut is not something today's buyers will likely experience.
Nigel, whilst you've focused on Steinhart as your alternative choice, you should learn to appreciate there are far more options than that.
Are you looking strictly for a Rolex Sub look-a-like or just a sports/dive watch in general?
If the former, then have a look at Davosa as well.
If the latter, then there are an absolute clatter of models which will fill that description, which I'm happy to list for you to research and see if they'd be a better fit for your quandary.
Are you looking strictly for a Rolex Sub look-a-like or just a sports/dive watch in general?
If the former, then have a look at Davosa as well.
If the latter, then there are an absolute clatter of models which will fill that description, which I'm happy to list for you to research and see if they'd be a better fit for your quandary.
I think most of your points have been answered by the others, but all I would say is that if you're spending that much, then you should wear it as much as you want, so you can enjoy it. If I was spending 5k on a watch I would wear it every day, and unless you have a job where it could get damaged, I would suggest you do too.
PJ S said:
Are you looking strictly for a Rolex Sub look-a-like or just a sports/dive watch in general?
That's the only question. If you want a Rolex Sub, then nothing else will do because you want a Rolex Sub. If you simply want a stainless steel dive/sports watch then there are hundreds of watches which fit the bill and don't look like a snide Sub. Get one of those and you probably won't give the Sub another thought..To add - nothing wrong with Steinhart, they make terrific quality watches as do many micro-brands, I just find their very direct homages to current watches to be slightly uncomfortable. The one I had (the Vintage) looked sufficiently unlike anything on sale today that I was comfortable with it. I never wore it though and traded it for a Seiko).
kazste said:
Not strictly correct though is it to say that it's designed to be worn everyday in this case.
Don't get me wrong I agree it's a tool watch, but if the plan is to not lose money should it need to be sold then you couldn't use it as a too, watch as its not a comex version and patina on a five year old sub is just classed as wear which will reduce the price you can sell it for fairly significantly. This is before you even think about potential damage caused by everyday wear.
Sorry - don't agree with this. As another poster has said you can wear it like a normal watch (which it is) get it serviced by Rolex (or any other reputable watchmaker) and it will look like new. Five years down the line I'd be absolutely confident that if you bought at the right price in the first place that you wouldn't lose any money. There are very few things in life you can buy and use in such a way. Don't get me wrong I agree it's a tool watch, but if the plan is to not lose money should it need to be sold then you couldn't use it as a too, watch as its not a comex version and patina on a five year old sub is just classed as wear which will reduce the price you can sell it for fairly significantly. This is before you even think about potential damage caused by everyday wear.
Not sure how Comex versions are relevant while patina is not going to form in five years and tends to affect only watches with tritium lume.
Just got back from Brum - dropped into two Rolex ADs, neither of whom had any steel Subs, new or secondhand. One dealer took my details and said they may have some elsewhere in their chain (Watches of Switzerland). Goldsmiths shrugged their shoulders when I asked when they would next have stock in, and casually mentioned that even when it arrives, its all spoken for.
So - I jumped on the train and wandered round the jewellery quarter - found the shops that 38911 mentioned in his post above.
At first, I was slightly taken by a 1996 16610, but it had a non-original box and no papers - however it was £3750 and was very clean. The only thing that worried me was that the cyclops didn't seem centred over the date window - it was definitely a little high. The dealer knew his stuff though, and eventually offered me a 15% discount on a new no-date Sub - that's £4,250
So - the burning question - is a new Sub through a non-AD a bad idea, or should I have his hand off?
So - I jumped on the train and wandered round the jewellery quarter - found the shops that 38911 mentioned in his post above.
At first, I was slightly taken by a 1996 16610, but it had a non-original box and no papers - however it was £3750 and was very clean. The only thing that worried me was that the cyclops didn't seem centred over the date window - it was definitely a little high. The dealer knew his stuff though, and eventually offered me a 15% discount on a new no-date Sub - that's £4,250
So - the burning question - is a new Sub through a non-AD a bad idea, or should I have his hand off?
I was in a similar position last year (sub date though). Used some of the money from my sharesave to buy a Rolex, but was something I had in mind before I started the scheme. If you really want one for you, then get the real deal. If it's to show off (mates/colleagues/family etc) then just get the Steinhart. It was a big purchase for me too so wasn't made lightly. If you're going to worry about it being a daily wear then don't, they are quite tough.
Nigel_O said:
Just got back from Brum - dropped into two Rolex ADs, neither of whom had any steel Subs, new or secondhand. One dealer took my details and said they may have some elsewhere in their chain (Watches of Switzerland). Goldsmiths shrugged their shoulders when I asked when they would next have stock in, and casually mentioned that even when it arrives, its all spoken for.
So - I jumped on the train and wandered round the jewellery quarter - found the shops that 38911 mentioned in his post above.
At first, I was slightly taken by a 1996 16610, but it had a non-original box and no papers - however it was £3750 and was very clean. The only thing that worried me was that the cyclops didn't seem centred over the date window - it was definitely a little high. The dealer knew his stuff though, and eventually offered me a 15% discount on a new no-date Sub - that's £4,250
So - the burning question - is a new Sub through a non-AD a bad idea, or should I have his hand off?
Did you look here? (no affinity or association with the place - just did a quick search) http://pkjewellers.co.uk/rolexsubmariner43.htm - 2005 Sub (non date 14060), with box and papers, includes 6 months warranty, £3,395.... so aim for £3,250 with a bit of haggling.So - I jumped on the train and wandered round the jewellery quarter - found the shops that 38911 mentioned in his post above.
At first, I was slightly taken by a 1996 16610, but it had a non-original box and no papers - however it was £3750 and was very clean. The only thing that worried me was that the cyclops didn't seem centred over the date window - it was definitely a little high. The dealer knew his stuff though, and eventually offered me a 15% discount on a new no-date Sub - that's £4,250
So - the burning question - is a new Sub through a non-AD a bad idea, or should I have his hand off?
38911 said:
Did you look here? (no affinity or association with the place - just did a quick search) http://pkjewellers.co.uk/rolexsubmariner43.htm - 2005 Sub (non date 14060), with box and papers, includes 6 months warranty, £3,395.... so aim for £3,250 with a bit of haggling.
Oof. If you want a non-date Sub... that's a great price!I'm getting a 116610LV tomorrow, just fancied one. Can't beat a bit of Rolex every now and again.
PJ S said:
Wrong, wrong, wrong!
The Steinhart will still be worth £150 ish in 5 years time – that's not "next to nothing".
The servicing cost, presently, of a Rolex Sub is circa £400, and who knows how much it'll be in 5 years time.
The days of making a profit on Rolex are all but over – so the old "worth more than you paid" chestnut is not something today's buyers will likely experience.
A 5 year old Steinhart is going to be worth £150? Unlikely. Where is the incentive for someone to take the risk on buying a well worn, 5 year old, out of warranty watch from a relatively unknown maker from Germany. The Steinhart will still be worth £150 ish in 5 years time – that's not "next to nothing".
The servicing cost, presently, of a Rolex Sub is circa £400, and who knows how much it'll be in 5 years time.
The days of making a profit on Rolex are all but over – so the old "worth more than you paid" chestnut is not something today's buyers will likely experience.
Don't get me wrong - Steinhart and Chris Ward etc are good enough watches, but they have no inherent brand value. They simply don't have the following or the reputation. I struggled to sell my 6 month old one that was still in warranty - and in the end I got back just 60% of it's new value - that was 6 months old!!!.
Average Joe who has £150 to spend on a watch will buy a new Quartz from Seiko/Tissot/etc. And someone who really aspires to owning an Automatic watch will find the extra money and buy a new CW/Steinhart.
Regarding servicing, as I already said, servicing isn't needed every 5 years (mine is 17 years old and has never been serviced but still runs well within COSC) - but when you do get an RSC done, your Rolex will come back looking like new.
As for the last statement, none of us have crystal balls - but both past performance, and the majority view of those that know what they are talking about, suggest Rolex have one of the strongest residuals in the watch world.
Edited by 38911 on Monday 29th December 14:45
yeti said:
Oof. If you want a non-date Sub... that's a great price!
I'm getting a 116610LV tomorrow, just fancied one. Can't beat a bit of Rolex every now and again.
Well jealous.... an LV (albeit an older 16610) is most definitely on my 'itch that needs scratching' list! One of the dealers in the Jewellery Qtr has two of them - both up for £5k..... I am tempted! I'm getting a 116610LV tomorrow, just fancied one. Can't beat a bit of Rolex every now and again.
Just sent an email to PK Jewellers, as they're not answering their phone
Just worked out that with my Christmas bonus, due in the next day or two, I could probably run to £3.5k cash right now, without hitting my share options in March, or even breaking a sweat for the usual monthly budget (just checked the bank account for my part-time own business and it transpires I haven't paid myself for a few months, so there's a bit of cash sloshing around that I could use to pay myself a dividend)
Still intrigued by the possibility of a new one at £4,250 though....
One of the Jewellery Quarter dealers I visited (who BTW was very good - spent a good half hour chatting with me, even though it was clear there wouldn't be a sale today) - showed me another choice - Oris Aquis Red Limited Edition - thought it was rather nice and he offered me a 30% discount of the spot
http://www.oris.ch/en/watches/oris-aquis-red-limit...
I didn't spot it straight away, but I guess you guys might - what's unusual about the Oris?
Just worked out that with my Christmas bonus, due in the next day or two, I could probably run to £3.5k cash right now, without hitting my share options in March, or even breaking a sweat for the usual monthly budget (just checked the bank account for my part-time own business and it transpires I haven't paid myself for a few months, so there's a bit of cash sloshing around that I could use to pay myself a dividend)
Still intrigued by the possibility of a new one at £4,250 though....
One of the Jewellery Quarter dealers I visited (who BTW was very good - spent a good half hour chatting with me, even though it was clear there wouldn't be a sale today) - showed me another choice - Oris Aquis Red Limited Edition - thought it was rather nice and he offered me a 30% discount of the spot
http://www.oris.ch/en/watches/oris-aquis-red-limit...
I didn't spot it straight away, but I guess you guys might - what's unusual about the Oris?
38911 said:
Well jealous.... an LV (albeit an older 16610) is most definitely on my 'itch that needs scratching' list! One of the dealers in the Jewellery Qtr has two of them - both up for £5k..... I am tempted!
I had the original one and never felt the love; just felt like a regular Sub with a green bezel nailed on it (despite the maxi dial). The 'Hulk' is something very special (IMHO) with that sunburst green dial and the flat green ceramic and decent bracelet adjustment. It;s a tch that is actually 'fun', not a pseudo-tool watch that takes itself seriously.Picked up a Planet Ocean (42mm) over Christmas so looking forward to comparing the two. Last similar comparison I did was the 9300 PO Chrono and the Deepsea.
Nigel_O said:
Just sent an email to PK Jewellers, as they're not answering their phone
Just worked out that with my Christmas bonus, due in the next day or two, I could probably run to £3.5k cash right now, without hitting my share options in March, or even breaking a sweat for the usual monthly budget (just checked the bank account for my part-time own business and it transpires I haven't paid myself for a few months, so there's a bit of cash sloshing around that I could use to pay myself a dividend)
Still intrigued by the possibility of a new one at £4,250 though....
One of the Jewellery Quarter dealers I visited (who BTW was very good - spent a good half hour chatting with me, even though it was clear there wouldn't be a sale today) - showed me another choice - Oris Aquis Red Limited Edition - thought it was rather nice and he offered me a 30% discount of the spot
http://www.oris.ch/en/watches/oris-aquis-red-limit...
I didn't spot it straight away, but I guess you guys might - what's unusual about the Oris?
That Oris is terrible - they have even managed to put the crown on the wrong side ;-)Just worked out that with my Christmas bonus, due in the next day or two, I could probably run to £3.5k cash right now, without hitting my share options in March, or even breaking a sweat for the usual monthly budget (just checked the bank account for my part-time own business and it transpires I haven't paid myself for a few months, so there's a bit of cash sloshing around that I could use to pay myself a dividend)
Still intrigued by the possibility of a new one at £4,250 though....
One of the Jewellery Quarter dealers I visited (who BTW was very good - spent a good half hour chatting with me, even though it was clear there wouldn't be a sale today) - showed me another choice - Oris Aquis Red Limited Edition - thought it was rather nice and he offered me a 30% discount of the spot
http://www.oris.ch/en/watches/oris-aquis-red-limit...
I didn't spot it straight away, but I guess you guys might - what's unusual about the Oris?
I'm guessing you saw that in the dealer with loads of cuckoo clocks inside? Yes they are quite helpful in there. Good aftercare as well - I've been in there when customers have returned with a watch they bought from them 2 or 3 years ago needing a battery replacement and got it free of charge. A lot of their stock seems to originate from overseas though - I suspect they import it. Nothing wrong with that except they pay rock bottom part exchange prices.
By the way, PK was opposite that shop, just up the side street.... 60 seconds walk away.
Nigel_O said:
Yup - found it in Google StreetView - will try again tomorrow
Just been checking some photos of date-Subs - seems quite a few have "high" cyclops...
It's quite susceptible to parallax (or whatever it's called) unless viewed square on. It's one of the reasons why many people prefer the clean lines of the no date version, especially the two-line version.Just been checking some photos of date-Subs - seems quite a few have "high" cyclops...
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