Vintage Tudor Rolex?
Discussion
A friend is after a birth year watch and has been offered this 1958/59 Tudor. Does it seem strange to anybody that the dial states Tudor Rolex as the model? I can't find any images of other watches like this and wonder if it's had an aftermarket dial. Others I've seen are marked Tudor Royal etc but not Tudor Rolex.
Any light that someone can shed on this would be appreciated.
Any light that someone can shed on this would be appreciated.
Please don't take this as gospel, as this age of watch is not my thing, but I have been reading a LOT about Tudor fakes/ authenticity recently, as I want to get a 70s snowflake, like everyone else lol.
As I understand it Tudors have had both Rolex and Tudor on the dials, mainly pre war. They did also get marke like this upto the 50s but it was rare. There seems to be some suggestion that it's UK market watches that have dual markings, not sure if that is correct.
Saying that there is something about that dial that is just not 100%. I have seen pictures of very very similar watches that had textured dials, with "tramlines" running under the numerals. The lume looks old, as opposed to a crappy relume.
I think the very whiteness of the dial sways it for me firmly into re-dial territory.
As I understand it Tudors have had both Rolex and Tudor on the dials, mainly pre war. They did also get marke like this upto the 50s but it was rare. There seems to be some suggestion that it's UK market watches that have dual markings, not sure if that is correct.
Saying that there is something about that dial that is just not 100%. I have seen pictures of very very similar watches that had textured dials, with "tramlines" running under the numerals. The lume looks old, as opposed to a crappy relume.
I think the very whiteness of the dial sways it for me firmly into re-dial territory.
That's got to be a re-dial. Look at the corrosion on the back of the dial.
The movement looks remarkably clean given the amount of corrosion on the dial back. I'd expect to see rust spots on the steel parts of the watch - crown wheel, winding wheel and regulator arm usually.
I tried to look up a Tudor 1260 on Ranfft and failed. I was worried by the lack of shock protection on the balance staff. I found another one on ebay for comparison.
Looks like they didn't have shock protection, which is odd for a watch of this era, but hey, live and learn - right?
Conclusions:
Redial, it's too clean for a watch of this age and the back of the dial shows corrosion not evident on the front.
Original hands, possibly with original Radium lume.
Possible marriage of movement and dial - movement much cleaner than dial, you'd expect them to be similar condition. But dial / movement combination is correct.
Movement, clean and correct.
Case solid 9ct, not much to go wrong there. Markings look right, worth checking the hallmarks to see what year the case was assayed and where.
The movement looks remarkably clean given the amount of corrosion on the dial back. I'd expect to see rust spots on the steel parts of the watch - crown wheel, winding wheel and regulator arm usually.
I tried to look up a Tudor 1260 on Ranfft and failed. I was worried by the lack of shock protection on the balance staff. I found another one on ebay for comparison.
Looks like they didn't have shock protection, which is odd for a watch of this era, but hey, live and learn - right?
Conclusions:
Redial, it's too clean for a watch of this age and the back of the dial shows corrosion not evident on the front.
Original hands, possibly with original Radium lume.
Possible marriage of movement and dial - movement much cleaner than dial, you'd expect them to be similar condition. But dial / movement combination is correct.
Movement, clean and correct.
Case solid 9ct, not much to go wrong there. Markings look right, worth checking the hallmarks to see what year the case was assayed and where.
Looks older, a watch of that age should have shock protection. This one doesn't.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incabloc_shock_prote...
Case may not be right for movement. But, I am not a Tudor / Rolex expert. Try a forum like Watchuseek or timezone for a definitive answer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incabloc_shock_prote...
Case may not be right for movement. But, I am not a Tudor / Rolex expert. Try a forum like Watchuseek or timezone for a definitive answer.
mikeveal said:
Looks older, a watch of that age should have shock protection. This one doesn't.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incabloc_shock_prote...
You would think so, but the June 1952 parts list for the ETA 1260 shows it as plain balance jewels and no shock protect option so it's not beyond possibility that this came out of the factory unprotected at that date!https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incabloc_shock_prote...
As far as I am aware, no Tudor has ever had Rolex markings on the dial.
With regards to 'pre-war' Tudors: HW formed Tudor in 1946, so there definitely arent any of those! They used Rolex cases which were marked Rolex where Rolex versions werent, but any pieces with dial markings are nasty vanity redials.
It used to be common in America. Much less so here, fortunately. It looks as though bulls
t is starting to legitimise these spurious pieces.
With regards to 'pre-war' Tudors: HW formed Tudor in 1946, so there definitely arent any of those! They used Rolex cases which were marked Rolex where Rolex versions werent, but any pieces with dial markings are nasty vanity redials.
It used to be common in America. Much less so here, fortunately. It looks as though bulls
t is starting to legitimise these spurious pieces. GC8 said:
As far as I am aware, no Tudor has ever had Rolex markings on the dial.
With regards to 'pre-war' Tudors: HW formed Tudor in 1946, so there definitely arent any of those! They used Rolex cases which were marked Rolex where Rolex versions werent, but any pieces with dial markings are nasty vanity redials.
It used to be common in America. Much less so here, fortunately. It looks as though bullst is starting to legitimise these spurious pieces.
Yes Tudor became a separate brand in 1946, the brand was registered in 1925 and Rolex produced watches branded Tudor pre war, there are catalogues showing it, I have seen one for sale in a very very respected retailer/ watch makers, with hall marked gold case from 1930s. With regards to 'pre-war' Tudors: HW formed Tudor in 1946, so there definitely arent any of those! They used Rolex cases which were marked Rolex where Rolex versions werent, but any pieces with dial markings are nasty vanity redials.
It used to be common in America. Much less so here, fortunately. It looks as though bulls
t is starting to legitimise these spurious pieces. James Dowlings Rolex book shows Tudors with Rolex on the dial, arguably the go to publication on vintage Rolex.
I know people online claim they are all fakes/ retails. They are 100% wrong, MOST are, but to say Rolex NEVER produced a watch with Rolex and Tudor on the dial is plain wrong, because they did. From the mid 1950s you are correct... Pre mid 1950s they MIGHT be real.
They almost always are from the UK market, and this is purely my take on it, immediately post war complete watches were very highly taxed, uncased movements much less so. Cases from this period are almost always made by watch makers in the UK, not in Switzerland by the manufacturer, I wonder if these anomalies were made so people knew they were getting a Rolex movement, even if it was in a case made by Denninson or Shackman and Rolex did not want to brand it fully, similar to the Wlatham Blancpains from the 60s &70s.
Variomatic said:
mikeveal said:
Looks older, a watch of that age should have shock protection. This one doesn't.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incabloc_shock_prote...
You would think so, but the June 1952 parts list for the ETA 1260 shows it as plain balance jewels and no shock protect option so it's not beyond possibility that this came out of the factory unprotected at that date!https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incabloc_shock_prote...
GC8 said:
Doesn't that apply to precious metal cases only?
Honestly I don't know, it was all to do with "luxury" I think, and the level of luxury, it could well be precious metal cases only. Maybe in the immediate post war period you would not have a Swiss watch in a base metal case?Variomatic said:
And the other way round, surely? Every Tudor I've ever seen used an outside movement in a Rolex case.
My comments about the movements may be so far wide of the mark, it just strikes me as a potential reason why the genuine dual marked watches appear to have been made for the UK market ONLY for very short period of time. It's my theory no more it is certainly NOT a statement of fact.
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