Panerai Watch question
Discussion
My first post in this section, so go easy please! As you will see from this post my knowledge of watches is extremely limited. It is my big 4 0 next year, and having been asked by my wife and family what I would like as a present I have decided that I am finally going to get myself a "nice" watch (which I will make up the difference in price on). I don't wear a watch day to day, and this will only be used for special occasions.
Now my definition of a nice watch would be a brand I have heard of like Rolex, Tag, Breitling, Omega etc. Something better than a Casio/Swatch. I did once have a Tissot - but no idea where I have placed that! However I really wanted a square watch rather than a round one, and I came across a brand called Panerai. I have never heard of them, but a quick google suggests they are in the same league as the brands mentioned above, but possibly not as well known, and therefore (in my opinion) a little more understated. My thought being if I can reach the age of 40 having never heard of them, then so will others.
Anyway - I decided today to pop into the local Panerai shop and have a look. I spoke to a very nice sales guy, who without being pushy took the time to explain some details about the watches. I never gave a budget, so he showed me whatever I wished to look at. I was concerned over the size, but the 44 looked normal on my wrist. The 42 looked like a ladies watch, and the 47 was too big for my liking. After looking at many watches I decided that the watch for me was the PAM00297. The budget was not far away from what I was looking at either. I liked the extra timezone, the 24 hour face, and the magnified date. It is an automatic which I think would suit me better, and has a 42 hour lifespan (perhaps an incorrect term).
Is this one:-
http://www.panerai.com/en/collections/watch-collec...
This is a big spend for me and my family on something that I know little about, and have little appreciation for, so I would like to check some of the facts I was told so that I know I have done my homework correctly:-
1) The watch has now been discontinued, and is a P (which indicates is a 2014 model)
2) This is 1 of 500 made in 2014
3) There are 3200 of these watches made ever (I guess 500 over 6 years, and 200 in the first year - this is my guess - not what the guy in shop told me)
4) It comes with a stainless steel strap that can be changed for something else if I want later on.
He was talking about resale value increasing on a discontinued model, but to be honest this is not being purchased to make money. I just want to ensure that the price I am paying is fair.
Basically the price is approx. £5100 or £5450 with an extra strap - both with 2 year warranty. (£350 seems a lot for a strap). Looking on internet I have found this place - but not sure how reputable it is (or isn't). Is also a 2008 model as well (although appears unused)
http://www.chrono24.co.uk/panerai/luminor-gmt-pam-...
My wife is back in UK next week, so if the place does a VAT refund certificate - I could potentially get this for £3160. That is a big saving! Is there anywhere else I should be looking? I should add I do want a "new" watch, but not sure if this means I should go for the 2014 rather than 2008 model - I guess they are the same watch after all?
I suppose I am really looking for the wisdom of PH to try and offer this watch luddite some ideas. Wife is back in UK for next 10 days - so need to make a decision on if I buy this locally, or get her to purchase from UK and bring back with her.
Now my definition of a nice watch would be a brand I have heard of like Rolex, Tag, Breitling, Omega etc. Something better than a Casio/Swatch. I did once have a Tissot - but no idea where I have placed that! However I really wanted a square watch rather than a round one, and I came across a brand called Panerai. I have never heard of them, but a quick google suggests they are in the same league as the brands mentioned above, but possibly not as well known, and therefore (in my opinion) a little more understated. My thought being if I can reach the age of 40 having never heard of them, then so will others.
Anyway - I decided today to pop into the local Panerai shop and have a look. I spoke to a very nice sales guy, who without being pushy took the time to explain some details about the watches. I never gave a budget, so he showed me whatever I wished to look at. I was concerned over the size, but the 44 looked normal on my wrist. The 42 looked like a ladies watch, and the 47 was too big for my liking. After looking at many watches I decided that the watch for me was the PAM00297. The budget was not far away from what I was looking at either. I liked the extra timezone, the 24 hour face, and the magnified date. It is an automatic which I think would suit me better, and has a 42 hour lifespan (perhaps an incorrect term).
Is this one:-
http://www.panerai.com/en/collections/watch-collec...
This is a big spend for me and my family on something that I know little about, and have little appreciation for, so I would like to check some of the facts I was told so that I know I have done my homework correctly:-
1) The watch has now been discontinued, and is a P (which indicates is a 2014 model)
2) This is 1 of 500 made in 2014
3) There are 3200 of these watches made ever (I guess 500 over 6 years, and 200 in the first year - this is my guess - not what the guy in shop told me)
4) It comes with a stainless steel strap that can be changed for something else if I want later on.
He was talking about resale value increasing on a discontinued model, but to be honest this is not being purchased to make money. I just want to ensure that the price I am paying is fair.
Basically the price is approx. £5100 or £5450 with an extra strap - both with 2 year warranty. (£350 seems a lot for a strap). Looking on internet I have found this place - but not sure how reputable it is (or isn't). Is also a 2008 model as well (although appears unused)
http://www.chrono24.co.uk/panerai/luminor-gmt-pam-...
My wife is back in UK next week, so if the place does a VAT refund certificate - I could potentially get this for £3160. That is a big saving! Is there anywhere else I should be looking? I should add I do want a "new" watch, but not sure if this means I should go for the 2014 rather than 2008 model - I guess they are the same watch after all?
I suppose I am really looking for the wisdom of PH to try and offer this watch luddite some ideas. Wife is back in UK for next 10 days - so need to make a decision on if I buy this locally, or get her to purchase from UK and bring back with her.
Amazing watches. I'd have one over all of the brands you've mentioned in your post for the same reasons as you i.e. they're quite understated apart from to those in the know.
Chrono24 is also a decent place, specialising (mainly) in used watches. Personally I'd be going down the pre-owned route for one but as it's a special present, you may choose to buy new. Use the Trusted Seller feature on Chrono24 for piece of mind or as pointed out, one of the respected sellers like Blowers or Hackett. I believe Hackett is run by a fellow PH'er.
Either way, they're great watches and hope you enjoy the purchase experience and subsequent ownership.
Chrono24 is also a decent place, specialising (mainly) in used watches. Personally I'd be going down the pre-owned route for one but as it's a special present, you may choose to buy new. Use the Trusted Seller feature on Chrono24 for piece of mind or as pointed out, one of the respected sellers like Blowers or Hackett. I believe Hackett is run by a fellow PH'er.
Either way, they're great watches and hope you enjoy the purchase experience and subsequent ownership.
The one the OP linked to is actually on Blowers stock, just being advertised via Chrono24.
Also as mentioned, PH'er Dominic Hackett ( http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/profile.asp?mem... ) is a very helpful person when it comes to sourcing watches.
Also as mentioned, PH'er Dominic Hackett ( http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/profile.asp?mem... ) is a very helpful person when it comes to sourcing watches.
Panerai are attractive watches. They appeal to me too because of their understated brand and simple, functional designs.
However, as with Rolex, Omega etc. they're so often and so easily faked that whenever I see one I automatically assume it's a fake. That might not bother you, but it would bother me.
Also, the watch's movement is based on an off-the-shelf ETA movement rather than one of Panerai's own. So I have a problem with a £5k price tag for a fancy case and a brand name. But the same is true for many Omega and Breitling models so this isn't a problem unique to Panerai. I'm sure if you buy one you'll love it, and I would too, but you say you're a newcomer to the watch world and I'd hate you to be disappointed by this if you learn more about the watch *after* you've bought it.
However, as with Rolex, Omega etc. they're so often and so easily faked that whenever I see one I automatically assume it's a fake. That might not bother you, but it would bother me.
Also, the watch's movement is based on an off-the-shelf ETA movement rather than one of Panerai's own. So I have a problem with a £5k price tag for a fancy case and a brand name. But the same is true for many Omega and Breitling models so this isn't a problem unique to Panerai. I'm sure if you buy one you'll love it, and I would too, but you say you're a newcomer to the watch world and I'd hate you to be disappointed by this if you learn more about the watch *after* you've bought it.
A bit weird to assume a watch is a fake, I always take it as genuine until I can either look at it or the owner admits that it is not. But I guess it depends on your social circle.
As to the ETA movements, some have highly redesigned units specifically altered by Panerai. Many, if not most current models have in-house movements.
Although there is nothing wrong with an ETA movement and plenty right with one, easy to service, cheap to replace (although getting harder due to the new Swatch policy), reliable and tough.
Yes Breitling use modified ETA movements in some of their watches. So does Omega, but they loosely can still be considered 'in-house' as both ETA and Omega are owned by the Swatch Group
As to the ETA movements, some have highly redesigned units specifically altered by Panerai. Many, if not most current models have in-house movements.
Although there is nothing wrong with an ETA movement and plenty right with one, easy to service, cheap to replace (although getting harder due to the new Swatch policy), reliable and tough.
Yes Breitling use modified ETA movements in some of their watches. So does Omega, but they loosely can still be considered 'in-house' as both ETA and Omega are owned by the Swatch Group
Panerais are beautiful bits of kit and you really don't see many in the real world, so are something different to the default Rolex / Omega / Breitling choice.
There is a truly vast array of quality aftermarket strap makers (both cheap and expensive) for Panerai watches, and to me, this adds to the allure. It is very easy to change a strap (only a small screwdriver is required, not a special tool), so changing can alter the look and feel of the watch considerably from smart to casual.
If you get this watch, make sure you buy the bracelet, as these are very expensive as an after purchase.
There is a truly vast array of quality aftermarket strap makers (both cheap and expensive) for Panerai watches, and to me, this adds to the allure. It is very easy to change a strap (only a small screwdriver is required, not a special tool), so changing can alter the look and feel of the watch considerably from smart to casual.
If you get this watch, make sure you buy the bracelet, as these are very expensive as an after purchase.
Many Thanks to all for their responses, and to Dominic for his PM. Not sure that I understand what the ETA piece means - but I will have a google later and try and figure out.
Also not sure that I understand what the Panerai Power reserve is. I understand what it is on the wind up watches, but am confused what this means on the automatic that I am looking at.
Hopefully I will get this all sorted in the next week, and be the proud owner of a new watch (although won't be allowed to wear until January!).
Also not sure that I understand what the Panerai Power reserve is. I understand what it is on the wind up watches, but am confused what this means on the automatic that I am looking at.
Hopefully I will get this all sorted in the next week, and be the proud owner of a new watch (although won't be allowed to wear until January!).
bobbybee said:
A bit weird to assume a watch is a fake, I always take it as genuine until I can either look at it or the owner admits that it is not. But I guess it depends on your social circle.
Yeah, probably true. Of the ones I know about there are more fakes than real ones. I guess this does say something about my social circle!Fats25 said:
Many Thanks to all for their responses, and to Dominic for his PM. Not sure that I understand what the ETA piece means - but I will have a google later and try and figure out.
ETA is a Swiss company (part of the Richmont group of companies, IIRC) that makes watch movements. (The mechanical bits.) They're perfectly good, reliable movements and can be calibrated to COSC levels (as they are in Panerais and Breitlings) but they're ubiquitous. When I was choosing my own 40th birthday watch I got a bit nerdy about watches and movements and decided I wanted something special enough to be worthy of something I'd keep forever, so an 'off the shelf' movement appealed less than an in-house one that represented the best the brand's watchmakers could make. I considered a Rolex but chose something else in the end. I had to double my budget to get it though! Man maths 
Fats25 said:
Also not sure that I understand what the Panerai Power reserve is. I understand what it is on the wind up watches, but am confused what this means on the automatic that I am looking at.
An automatic watch is still mechanical, but it winds itself as you move your wrist. (You knew that, right?) The power reserve serves exactly the same purpose as it does on the manual winding models.
threadlock said:
bobbybee said:
ETA is a Swiss company (part of the Richmont group of companies, IIRC) that makes watch movements. (The mechanical bits.) They're perfectly good, reliable movements and can be calibrated to COSC levels (as they are in Panerais and Breitlings) but they're ubiquitous. When I was choosing my own 40th birthday watch I got a bit nerdy about watches and movements and decided I wanted something special enough to be worthy of something I'd keep forever, so an 'off the shelf' movement appealed less than an in-house one that represented the best the brand's watchmakers could make.
ETA is not part of the Richmont group of companies. It is solely owned by Swatch Group.The higher end movements are COSC certified
As to Panerai the cheaper ones have modified ETA movements, the higher end models have Panerai in-house movements
In-house does give that special feeling that the whole watch was made by the same manufacturer, as apposed to a watch with is a cased up ETA, but it does not always mean that the in-house movement is better.
Fats25 said:
Many Thanks to all for their responses, and to Dominic for his PM. Not sure that I understand what the ETA piece means - but I will have a google later and try and figure out.
ETA is the manufacturer of the movement. The company makes a vast range of movements, all in varying grades of quality; standard, elaborated, top and chronometer. In essence:-Standard grade is adjusted in two positions with an average rate of +/−12 seconds/day, with a maximum daily variation of +/−30 seconds/day;
-Elaborated grade is adjusted in three positions with an average rate of +/−7 seconds/day, with a maximum daily variation of +/−20 seconds/day;
-Top grade is adjusted in five positions with an average rate of +/−4 seconds/day, with a maximum daily variation of +/−15 seconds/day.
-Chronometer grade must meet strict standards prescribed by the COSC. Chronometer grade movements are serial numbered, as that is a requirement of the certification authority. Moreover, it should be noted that the degree of decoration on the movement's parts, generally only an aesthetic improvement, increases as well with the grade.[6]
However as someone else said, quite a few companies buy these ETA movements and then modify them to improve the aesthetics of the watch, accuracy of the watch, and the finish of the movement (display back cases etc). That said, when spending lots of cash on a piece, some people are a little irked that a £10,000 watch can have a similar movement to a £1,000 watch. What's the additional £9K for? etc
In-house movements, which some Panerai watches incorporate, are movements created by the manufacturer. As such, a bit more unique - The company has done all the R&D, manufacturing, construction etc. A bit more special!
Fats25 said:
Also not sure that I understand what the Panerai Power reserve is. I understand what it is on the wind up watches, but am confused what this means on the automatic that I am looking at.
I can't go into too much detail, as I'm at work ... Basically the power reserve is how long the watch will run without being worn. Automatic means there is a weighted rotor that rotates as you move. However if you take the watch off, this rotor stops rotating, and the mainspring will unwind. So a 42 hour power reserve means 42 hours of running off the wrist. Power reserve indicators show you how much energy is stored. Sometimes in hours, days etc. Super useful for manual wind watches. Fats25 said:
Hopefully I will get this all sorted in the next week, and be the proud owner of a new watch (although won't be allowed to wear until January!).
Nice! Post up a pic of your latest acquisition when you get it! I'm hoping to have something rather special for my 30th in January. I'm looking at Glashutte, Zenith and JLC myself! Hi
I'm not sure the watch you linked to has either a power reserve dial or displays a second time zone.
I may be wrong but it looks like a small seconds hand final.
I have a Panerai, I absolutely love it. People either know what it us and want yo talk about it or pay no interest as despot buts size it doesn't shout "Look at me"
Dom H has a lovely Ferrari Panerai on his site that's worth a look.
I'm not sure the watch you linked to has either a power reserve dial or displays a second time zone.
I may be wrong but it looks like a small seconds hand final.
I have a Panerai, I absolutely love it. People either know what it us and want yo talk about it or pay no interest as despot buts size it doesn't shout "Look at me"
Dom H has a lovely Ferrari Panerai on his site that's worth a look.
I just paid £3900 VAT inclusive for my 088 GMT from Iconic Watches. Triple boxed, seals intact with full 24 month warranty. I prefer the leather strap to the metal bracelet.
2nd watch I have had from Iconic this year, I purchased a GMT Daylight for my 40th in June. Went up to see them the first time where I looked at both watches but the 088 was some £600 dearer. This time I just purchased it over the internet and it arrived 2 days later job done.
2nd watch I have had from Iconic this year, I purchased a GMT Daylight for my 40th in June. Went up to see them the first time where I looked at both watches but the 088 was some £600 dearer. This time I just purchased it over the internet and it arrived 2 days later job done.
I've had my Pan for over 4 years now and I love it can't ever see me selling it. I have 6 leather straps they take seconds to swap I prefer leather on my Pan as I've also got a Seamaster for the stainless fix.
Have a look at Vintager straps for a fantastic hand made option there excellent quality also Heroic18 make some fine straps.
Have a look at Vintager straps for a fantastic hand made option there excellent quality also Heroic18 make some fine straps.
Do it !!
Panerai watches are lovely bits of kit. I bought an 0088 GMT in 2008, and traded it in against a pre-owned 312 earlier this year. I bought the '88 from Wempe as there was limited new stock at the time, but their service was excellent, and as a new buyer I liked the peace of mind that came with buying from an authorised dealer. For my 312 I used Watches of Switzerland (watches.co.uk) as they are reputable and I was able to book a face-to-face session to see the 312 before purchasing it.
The movements are slightly different between the two, and the 88 was really really accurate. The 312 is less accurate, but still loads better than an old Breitling I have.
There is a huge availability of aftermarket straps. I have a couple from Toshi - http://toshi-straps.co.uk/straps/
I like the fact that they're not too common, and that there is a bit of history behind the brand and the design. Good luck with your purchase!
Panerai watches are lovely bits of kit. I bought an 0088 GMT in 2008, and traded it in against a pre-owned 312 earlier this year. I bought the '88 from Wempe as there was limited new stock at the time, but their service was excellent, and as a new buyer I liked the peace of mind that came with buying from an authorised dealer. For my 312 I used Watches of Switzerland (watches.co.uk) as they are reputable and I was able to book a face-to-face session to see the 312 before purchasing it.
The movements are slightly different between the two, and the 88 was really really accurate. The 312 is less accurate, but still loads better than an old Breitling I have.
There is a huge availability of aftermarket straps. I have a couple from Toshi - http://toshi-straps.co.uk/straps/
I like the fact that they're not too common, and that there is a bit of history behind the brand and the design. Good luck with your purchase!
Take a look over on paneristi.com and you'll get the Panerai bug. Good watches and 'different' to other mainstream brands.
Certain models are collectable and iconic but its all down to personal taste. I've got a PAM196 as I fancied a chrono with a date (which the Daytona doesn't have and is therefore a dealbreaker).
Certain models are collectable and iconic but its all down to personal taste. I've got a PAM196 as I fancied a chrono with a date (which the Daytona doesn't have and is therefore a dealbreaker).
Thankyou4calling said:
Hi
I'm not sure the watch you linked to has either a power reserve dial or displays a second time zone.
I may be wrong but it looks like a small seconds hand final.
I have a Panerai, I absolutely love it. People either know what it us and want yo talk about it or pay no interest as despot buts size it doesn't shout "Look at me"
Dom H has a lovely Ferrari Panerai on his site that's worth a look.
The watch is a GMT, so yes it does display a second time zone, that's what the secondary hour had is for along with the 24 hour numbers on the outer edge of the dial.I'm not sure the watch you linked to has either a power reserve dial or displays a second time zone.
I may be wrong but it looks like a small seconds hand final.
I have a Panerai, I absolutely love it. People either know what it us and want yo talk about it or pay no interest as despot buts size it doesn't shout "Look at me"
Dom H has a lovely Ferrari Panerai on his site that's worth a look.
The sub dial is seconds, there is no power reserve display
If you are not 100% certain on the design you can buy a "homage" watch as people call them. They are legally made Chinese lookalikes, but do not fall into the category of fake (close though) as they leave off the genuine manufacturers name and branding. It gives you the chance to make sure you like the design before you commit to buying the real deal.
Have a look here http://www.manbushijie.com/44mm-marina-militare-ss... I have bought from this company before and they do one like the one you want for what works out to under £90 delivered.
I'm happy to post some close up photos of mine if you are interested, but I won't pollute the thread otherwise!
Have a look here http://www.manbushijie.com/44mm-marina-militare-ss... I have bought from this company before and they do one like the one you want for what works out to under £90 delivered.
I'm happy to post some close up photos of mine if you are interested, but I won't pollute the thread otherwise!
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