Fakes, what's the feeling?

[InductionRoar]

Countdown said:

And there it is in a nutshell. It's all about the image - the "I'm considerably richer than yow" doesn't work if people can achieve the same when spending substantially less.

But they can't achieve the same. Can they..?

[Troubleatmill]

Countdown said:

Troubleatmill said:

You want the image but not the price tag.

And there it is in a nutshell. It's all about the image - the "I'm considerably richer than yow" doesn't work if people can achieve the same when spending substantially less.

Nope.. It is .. I appreciate the value that nice things cost.
I have some lovely artwork around the house. I have paid what it costs.
Now... I could have gone to some scumbag and say "copy it"..
... but I didn't.

It does not value the artist, the art, or satisfy me.

If you cannot grasp that.... there is no hope.

[Countdown]

InductionRoar said:

Countdown said:

And there it is in a nutshell. It's all about the image - the "I'm considerably richer than yow" doesn't work if people can achieve the same when spending substantially less.

But they can't achieve the same. Can they..?

Nope. And who cares....?

[EddieSteadyGo]

One other point which hasn't been discussed yet is the retained value.

For example, I used to own a Rolex which I had bought a few years ago and wasn't wearing.

I sold it within 3 days of listing it for a reasonable amount more than I had originally paid. The new owner has a watch on which they saved quite a large proportion of the current RRP. Plus they could sell it again and get back pretty much all of their money, assuming they kept it in very good condition.

So the cost of ownership on many watches isn't as high as it first might appear.

Plus it has all of the other virtues mentioned previously in the thread.

[Troubleatmill]

V6Pushfit said:

Troubleatmill said:

Fella, I am sure you are a nice bloke in real life... but it comes over all "saddo" here is why....
You cannot afford the real thing. really?
You want the image but not the price tag.value for money and not being ripped off
And... it has to be as identical as possible... e.g...."fake"

And then... " But I only spent £39.99... huzzah..." on a £3500 watch - BRILLIANT

Do you buy suits from M&S and sew premium labels to the inside", Or Clarke shoes and relabel as Barker? etc etc not bothered by labels I have good classic stuff but pointless going to big names as a lot of the time they have only applied their label to cheap stuff anyway

What about the oven in your kitchen... Is it a Lamona you stuck a Miele badge on....? Aga

I have an almost obsessive nature when it comes to originality, parts have been changed on cars, guns, properties etc etc etc to get exactly what they should be - I have scoured the world for an engine block to match the exact week of a 70 year old car, and the excitement after 2 years finding the right wiper motor to match the year of another. All when 'whatever' parts would be fine, so I don't need a lesson in getting things perfect.

As I said above, it's because of investment and because I know they are correct.

I would never argue the toss with others who don't do it that way.

I'm amazed at the fervent attack here by people against those wanting for their own reasons to wear a 'fake' but if those people want to keep on scraping the barrel to justify then it's up to them, seeing people try to excuse spending thousands more than they needed is pitiful.

Sir..... you miss the point entirely

The product costs what is costs... because that is what the IP holder, R&D, salaries, marketing etc etc etc all cost

Assuming you run your own business..(let's make it... you own a computer software company ... or you make car parts... whatever.... and I had a way to copy everything about it... and sell all of your products to customers for less than you can make it for.... And... I am putting your name on it. A Genuine V6Pushfit product....

You would be furious.
Can you deny otherwise?

[anonymous-user]

Troubleatmill said:

V6Pushfit said:

Troubleatmill said:

You wasted cash on a fake... you might not like my answer.
I just don't get why anyone would want to buy a fake anything... it just sounds desperate.

How in Gods name is spending £3500 less on something identical in looks and function either wasting money or desperate?
Seriously, how????

If you, with a 'genuine' were to say face to face to a 'fake' wearer it was HE who had wasted his money you would be just be laughed at !

Fella, I am sure you are a nice bloke in real life... but it comes over all "saddo" here is why....
You cannot afford the real thing.
You want the image but not the price tag.
And... it has to be as identical as possible... e.g...."fake"

And then... " But I only spent £39.99... huzzah..."

Do you buy suits from M&S and sew premium labels to the inside", Or Clarke shoes and relabel as Barker? etc etc

What about the oven in your kitchen... Is it a Lamona you stuck a Miele badge on....?


If not... why not?


And do you drive a "Landwind"?

Edited by Troubleatmill on Sunday 14th February 18:17

Long reply deleted, pointless. You have no idea my friend so just carry on scraping that barrel. We've had every reason known to man so far against 'fakes' so there are a lot of 'original' owners irked at the unnecessary cost they have expended.

The post 2 above this is fine as I said earlier, but the other stuff? Desperate!

Edited by V6Pushfit on Sunday 14th February 19:23

[Troubleatmill]

Sir..... you miss the point entirely (again )

The product costs what is costs... because that is what the IP holder, R&D, salaries, marketing etc etc etc all cost

Assuming you run your own business..(let's make it... you own a computer software company ... or you make car parts... whatever.... and I had a way to copy everything about it... and sell all of your products to customers for less than you can make it for.... And... I am putting your name on it. A Genuine V6Pushfit product....

You would be furious.
Can you deny otherwise?


I dare you to say... you are fine with the idea!!

[anonymous-user]

Troubleatmill said:

Sir..... you miss the point entirely

The product costs what is costs... because that is what the IP holder, R&D, salaries, marketing etc etc etc all cost

Assuming you run your own business..(let's make it... you own a computer software company ... or you make car parts... whatever.... and I had a way to copy everything about it... and sell all of your products to customers for less than you can make it for.... And... I am putting your name on it. A Genuine V6Pushfit product....

You would be furious.
Can you deny otherwise?

Is Rolex your own business then or someone else's?

[Troubleatmill]

V6Pushfit said:

Troubleatmill said:

Sir..... you miss the point entirely

The product costs what is costs... because that is what the IP holder, R&D, salaries, marketing etc etc etc all cost

Assuming you run your own business..(let's make it... you own a computer software company ... or you make car parts... whatever.... and I had a way to copy everything about it... and sell all of your products to customers for less than you can make it for.... And... I am putting your name on it. A Genuine V6Pushfit product....

You would be furious.
Can you deny otherwise?

Is Rolex your own business then or someone else's?

Chicken!! Answer the question....

YES or NO?

[Countdown]

Troubleatmill said:

Nope.. It is .. I appreciate the value that nice things cost.

You really don't. It doesn't cost Rolex £20,000 to make a particular watch. Much of the money is derived from the branding. If they weren't labelled Rolex people wouldn't pay anything near retail price. And THAT is why people like you get upset at the "fakes". because you think they're unfairly benefitting from the branding. Branding and exclusivity that you are paying top dollar for. Fakes don't change the quality of a genuine Rolex. All they do is reduce/dilutes the snobbery value of having a Rolex.

Troubleatmill said:

I have some lovely artwork around the house. I have paid what it costs.

Nope. You've paid what the vendor could convince you that it was worth. Art is exceptionally subjective values fluctuate according to market sentiment. In purely aesthetic terms there's no difference between an original Van Gogh or a fake.

Troubleatmill said:

Now... I could have gone to some scumbag and say "copy it"..... but I didn't.

Good for you. But if 10000 people have copies of the same painting does that make you feel worse? The artist doesn't get any benefit from resale value. Other art isn't affected by it. And your personal enjoyment of that particular piece of art shouldn't (in theory) be affected by it. The only reason it IS affected is because suddenly yours isn't perceived as being as unique or as special as it could be

Troubleatmill said:

If you cannot grasp that.... there is no hope.

Indeed.

[anonymous-user]

Troubleatmill said:

Chicken!! Answer the question....

YES or NO?

My point was about the 'pro genuine' arguments scraping the barrel. You post just carries this on.

Sorry I'm out.

It's been, er, emotional

[Troubleatmill]

Countdown said:

Troubleatmill said:

Nope.. It is .. I appreciate the value that nice things cost.

You really don't. It doesn't cost Rolex £20,000 to make a particular watch. Much of the money is derived from the branding. If they weren't labelled Rolex people wouldn't pay anything near retail price. And THAT is why people like you get upset at the "fakes". because you think they're unfairly benefitting from the branding. Branding and exclusivity that you are paying top dollar for. Fakes don't change the quality of a genuine Rolex. All they do is reduce/dilutes the snobbery value of having a Rolex.

Troubleatmill said:

I have some lovely artwork around the house. I have paid what it costs.

Nope. You've paid what the vendor could convince you that it was worth. Art is exceptionally subjective values fluctuate according to market sentiment. In purely aesthetic terms there's no difference between an original Van Gogh or a fake.

Troubleatmill said:

Now... I could have gone to some scumbag and say "copy it"..... but I didn't.

Good for you. But if 10000 people have copies of the same painting does that make you feel worse? The artist doesn't get any benefit from resale value. Other art isn't affected by it. And your personal enjoyment of that particular piece of art shouldn't (in theory) be affected by it. The only reason it IS affected is because suddenly yours isn't perceived as being as unique or as special as it could be

Troubleatmill said:

If you cannot grasp that.... there is no hope.

Indeed.

If the artist or licence holder.... authorised it.... no problem...

Would you care to take up the V6Pushfit challenge...?

Same challenge to you... YES or NO?

[Countdown]

Troubleatmill said:

If the artist or licence holder.... authorised it.... no problem...

Would you care to take up the V6Pushfit challenge...?

Same challenge to you... YES or NO?

In relation to the V6Pushfit challenge - I would have no problem at all.

If the fake product that you're selling is as good as my genuine one in all aspects then I seriously need to look at why mine is more expensive.

Here's a question for you - would you pay hundreds/thousands of pounds for bottled swiss air? the air in sqitzerland is guaranteed to be purer and contain less pollutants than you'd fine in London. It will significantly increase our lifespan etc..

[Troubleatmill]

Countdown said:

Troubleatmill said:

If the artist or licence holder.... authorised it.... no problem...

Would you care to take up the V6Pushfit challenge...?

Same challenge to you... YES or NO?

In relation to the V6Pushfit challenge - I would have no problem at all.

If the fake product that you're selling is as good as my genuine one in all aspects then I seriously need to look at why mine is more expensive.

Here's a question for you - would you pay hundreds/thousands of pounds for bottled swiss air? the air in sqitzerland is guaranteed to be purer and contain less pollutants than you'd fine in London. It will significantly increase our lifespan etc..

Are you genuinely saying you are happy for me to make a knock off of your product... and sell it with your name on it?
Your IP, your design, your R&D everything.. I stole it all......

Tell me that again... just so I do not misunderstand you.

[DanL]

V6Pushfit said:

This gets down to being about people being pissed off having spent thousands more on the same but finding every other reason possible.
There are two reasons only to buy original and that's investment and to know its original. Both of those are personal to the wearer, and for every one owner that decides they are important there are 100's who don't so are quite happy with 'fakes'.
It doesn't make the 'fake' wearers sub human and if anything they can be argued as being more astute and less easily swayed by the hype to become watch fashion victims.
I have a '58 black dial oyster at the moment but I'm quite happy to wear a submariner I bought for £15.

Said it before on this thread, and I'll say it again - don't care if you wear a fake. Don't particularly care if fakes are made - I have no skin in this game other than being a consumer of the product, so IP infringement for stuff I don't own the IP for doesn't bother me overly.

The only bit I find annoying is the assertion that I'm an idiot for buying the real thing, while you're more astute for picking up a copy at a fraction of the price. The reason I object is because you're being disingenuous about your reasons for buying the copy. If you just liked the look, you could buy one of the many look alike "homages". I would imagine that a number of them cost less than a "good" fake Rolex. If you buy the fake, you actually do want the real thing, or at least want people to think you've got the real thing. You're wearing it just as much to show off as I am with my real one. To claim otherwise is nonsense, frankly.

So - given that, if you want the real thing but don't buy it, who are you really fooling?

Edited by DanL on Sunday 14th February 19:54

[DonkeyApple]

Surely, in terms of wearing a bracelet for the purpose of feeling important/special etc, the larger number of fakes of a product then the more that validates ones exquisite taste and tremendous power and success? And the only real problem arises when a fake is as well made as the authentic item as it highlights that there is no inherent value in the original?

[Troubleatmill]

DonkeyApple said:

Surely, in terms of wearing a bracelet for the purpose of feeling important/special etc, the larger number of fakes of a product then the more that validates ones exquisite taste and tremendous power and success? And the only real problem arises when a fake is as well made as the authentic item as it highlights that there is no inherent value in the original?

Nope.. read above...

If you run your own business.. build your own brand... hired your own staff... design and make your own product. You have invested millions...
And I find a way to steal it all.. all of it... and sell it for 90% less than you can make it for... and I put your name on it... your name... and I get all of the money..

Are you happy?

YES or NO.

At the end of the day... it comes down to that one basic thing.

It is all fun and games ripping off "The Man".... until someone steals your ideas and cashes in.

[DonkeyApple]

Troubleatmill said:

DonkeyApple said:

Surely, in terms of wearing a bracelet for the purpose of feeling important/special etc, the larger number of fakes of a product then the more that validates ones exquisite taste and tremendous power and success? And the only real problem arises when a fake is as well made as the authentic item as it highlights that there is no inherent value in the original?

Nope.. read above...

If you run your own business.. build your own brand... hired your own staff... design and make your own product. You have invested millions...
And I find a way to steal it all.. all of it... and sell it for 90% less than you can make it for... and I put your name on it... your name... and I get all of the money..

Are you happy?

YES or NO.

At the end of the day... it comes down to that one basic thing.

It is all fun and games ripping off "The Man".... until someone steals your ideas and cashes in.

And if it is not good enough?

If the engineering quality is so low that it can be replicated so easily for so little money then it really isn't a good product and doesn't deserve to survive.

People are saying that they're buying for the engineering quality after all.

And I think there is a very good discussion as to whether fakes damage or promote a product?

[Troubleatmill]

DonkeyApple said:

Troubleatmill said:

DonkeyApple said:

Surely, in terms of wearing a bracelet for the purpose of feeling important/special etc, the larger number of fakes of a product then the more that validates ones exquisite taste and tremendous power and success? And the only real problem arises when a fake is as well made as the authentic item as it highlights that there is no inherent value in the original?

Nope.. read above...

If you run your own business.. build your own brand... hired your own staff... design and make your own product. You have invested millions...
And I find a way to steal it all.. all of it... and sell it for 90% less than you can make it for... and I put your name on it... your name... and I get all of the money..

Are you happy?

YES or NO.

At the end of the day... it comes down to that one basic thing.

It is all fun and games ripping off "The Man".... until someone steals your ideas and cashes in.

And if it is not good enough?

If the engineering quality is so low that it can be replicated so easily for so little money then it really isn't a good product and doesn't deserve to survive.

People are saying that they're buying for the engineering quality after all.

And I think there is a very good discussion as to whether fakes damage or promote a product?

The is the V6Pushfit test.

Are you happy for someone to steal your IP, design, work etc etc... put your name on it.... and let them make money from it...

YES or NO?

[DonkeyApple]

Troubleatmill said:

Are you happy for someone else to rip off your IP, design etc etc... and put your name on it...

It the V6Pushfit test.

Are you happy for someone to steal your IP, design, work etc etc... put your name on it.... and let them make money from it...

YES or NO?

ARE YOU BEING OVER EMOTIONAL? YES OR NO!

If the product is not good enough then it will not survive and nor should it. Ease of replication is a bit of a give away. As is inability to enforce IP etc.

If the product is actually good enough then fakes aren't going to damage it. If anything they will flatter, even promote it.

I don't care one iota if someone has a fake of something that I own. It troubles me not one jot unless the fake happens to be as good as the real item, in which case I must question my own reasoning for buying the original advice clearly misjudged its quality.