Accuracy of an automatic?
Discussion
UnclePat said:
Nothing wrong with the Trident - solid, good-looking & pretty much exactly the same build materials, quality & movement as a Tag Heuer Aquaracer, but at a third of the price.
Uses an ETA 2824-2 or Sellita SW200 movement (both virtually identical) which are excellent, robust, proven & capable of great accuracy when regulated correctly. The mid-tier Elabore version which CW uses is meant to perform at an average of +/- 20 secs daily 'off the shelf', but at that price level, CW don't hand regulate them, they just drop the movement in the case (fair enough, to regulate each & every one would add cost). There's a lot that can happen during casing of the movement & shipment to the buyer.
+40 secs a day is too poor, though. CW will regulate it at no charge to a better standard under their excellent 60:60 warranty, but you will be without it for a month or so. If you've still got the stickers, tags etc. attached (doubtful) and it's in unworn condition, you can return for a no-quibble refund within 60 days. E-mail them and see what their current backlog is.
Any competent watch-maker can do the same for you, over a day or two, but anyone other than CW opening the case back will void the warranty. If you don't know what you're doing, I wouldn't try it yourself - without correct tools you'll butcher the case-back removal. The regulating lever only needs moved the most minute amount - if you can see visible movement, that's too much. If you slip & touch the hairspring, you're f@cked. Also, CW doing it will ensure your water-resistance is warrantied - last thing you want is to shear or crimp the gasket.
There are some (limited) things you can try to better the daily rate a little - keeping a full wind (turn the crown an initial 30-40 times to full wind and make sure you're wearing it enough thereafter to keep a full reserve), and then check after a few days, as a watch with poor isochronism will be all over the place. Or try experimenting with overnight positioning (crown-up, dial-down etc.) to manipulate timing.
To be honest though, none of that will buy you more than a few secs daily though, so I'd send it back. A total pain, but they'll look after you.
Thanks, Pat, that's very informative and useful, although I knew that the movement was the ETA/ Sellita. I also knew that the C600 wasn't a COSC watch.Uses an ETA 2824-2 or Sellita SW200 movement (both virtually identical) which are excellent, robust, proven & capable of great accuracy when regulated correctly. The mid-tier Elabore version which CW uses is meant to perform at an average of +/- 20 secs daily 'off the shelf', but at that price level, CW don't hand regulate them, they just drop the movement in the case (fair enough, to regulate each & every one would add cost). There's a lot that can happen during casing of the movement & shipment to the buyer.
+40 secs a day is too poor, though. CW will regulate it at no charge to a better standard under their excellent 60:60 warranty, but you will be without it for a month or so. If you've still got the stickers, tags etc. attached (doubtful) and it's in unworn condition, you can return for a no-quibble refund within 60 days. E-mail them and see what their current backlog is.
Any competent watch-maker can do the same for you, over a day or two, but anyone other than CW opening the case back will void the warranty. If you don't know what you're doing, I wouldn't try it yourself - without correct tools you'll butcher the case-back removal. The regulating lever only needs moved the most minute amount - if you can see visible movement, that's too much. If you slip & touch the hairspring, you're f@cked. Also, CW doing it will ensure your water-resistance is warrantied - last thing you want is to shear or crimp the gasket.
There are some (limited) things you can try to better the daily rate a little - keeping a full wind (turn the crown an initial 30-40 times to full wind and make sure you're wearing it enough thereafter to keep a full reserve), and then check after a few days, as a watch with poor isochronism will be all over the place. Or try experimenting with overnight positioning (crown-up, dial-down etc.) to manipulate timing.
To be honest though, none of that will buy you more than a few secs daily though, so I'd send it back. A total pain, but they'll look after you.
Nevertheless, there is a big difference between 6 secs a day and 40(ish). I have emailed CW and I await their response.
HaiKarate said:
Indeed. COSC is -4 to + 6 over 24 hours.
Rolex now, although still COSC certified, guarantees -2 to +2 out of the box. Plus 5 year warranty.
That depends on the testing conditions that the level of accuracy is claimed for I guess. Rolex now, although still COSC certified, guarantees -2 to +2 out of the box. Plus 5 year warranty.
The higher level master chronometer rating is extensive and public in its scope.
As noted elsewhere, a chronograph is a watch with a stopwatch built into it. The little sub-dials measure stopwatch minutes (the dial at 12 o’clock below) and hours (6 o’clock) with stopwatch seconds being the main dial’s big second hand. If the stopwatch isn’t running this big second hand doesn’t move. The sub-dial at 9 o’clock is your watches’ normal running seconds, although many chronographs don’t include this for all those reasons to do with them not being terribly accurate.
A brand new mechanical movement can run a little fast at first, but this should only be a few seconds a day, and it should always be set fast rather than slow, as being early is better than being late. The timekeeping on a mechanical watch can be adjusted to within a second or two a day, but that needs you to wear it and report back as each person’s use is different. When you take it off at night for instance the watch will spend several hours below body temperature, the metals will contract a smidge and timekeeping will differ to when it’s at body temperature on your wrist. A second a day is 99.999% accuracy on a mechanical machine, so the difference between a warm bedroom and a cool one is easily a second or two. The running seconds at the 9 o’clock sub-dial in the picture below has 3 second hands, which is nothing at all to do with Mercedes, but so you never see the seconds hand more than a few seconds off the radio 4 pips. (Incidentally the logo has nothing to do with Maserati either)
The accuracy of mechanical watches really are staggeringly good when you consider that you have a miniaturised machine sitting on your wrist, subjected to a daily barrage of shocks and violent movements, and often able to withstand swimming in the sea, trekking through desert or arctic weather, and being immersed in mud or grease. It’s also a machine that will take the energy it needs to run from those movements and will work continuously for a few hundred years with nothing more than a drop of oil every once in a while. To be honest, you can skip the oil on most high end watches as the bearings are made from ruby and so impervious to wear that running them unlubricated doesn’t actually damage them. It does create more than a 0.001% change in friction though, so time keeping will wander, and a spec of dust working through the seals each time you pull the stem to adjust the time might land on the hair spring or balance wheel and change its weight by 0.001%.
A cheaper mechanical watch not surprisingly has a movement that isn’t made to the manufacturing tolerance or accuracy necessary to achieve consistent high accuracy during a production run. Some movements will be good, some won’t, but they’ll all go into watches and be sold because there isn’t the budget to test each one.
If your life is accurate to a second a day then a digital Casio is good, but if you want true mechanical beauty from a wrist mounted engine with springs and bearings, cogs and a ticking heart, then it has to be a mechanical watch. And what could be nicer in a digital world than an analogue machine operating to a 7000 year old, duodecimal numbering system?
Just my opinion of course.
edit: a 'chronograph' is a watch with a stopwatch :-]
A brand new mechanical movement can run a little fast at first, but this should only be a few seconds a day, and it should always be set fast rather than slow, as being early is better than being late. The timekeeping on a mechanical watch can be adjusted to within a second or two a day, but that needs you to wear it and report back as each person’s use is different. When you take it off at night for instance the watch will spend several hours below body temperature, the metals will contract a smidge and timekeeping will differ to when it’s at body temperature on your wrist. A second a day is 99.999% accuracy on a mechanical machine, so the difference between a warm bedroom and a cool one is easily a second or two. The running seconds at the 9 o’clock sub-dial in the picture below has 3 second hands, which is nothing at all to do with Mercedes, but so you never see the seconds hand more than a few seconds off the radio 4 pips. (Incidentally the logo has nothing to do with Maserati either)
The accuracy of mechanical watches really are staggeringly good when you consider that you have a miniaturised machine sitting on your wrist, subjected to a daily barrage of shocks and violent movements, and often able to withstand swimming in the sea, trekking through desert or arctic weather, and being immersed in mud or grease. It’s also a machine that will take the energy it needs to run from those movements and will work continuously for a few hundred years with nothing more than a drop of oil every once in a while. To be honest, you can skip the oil on most high end watches as the bearings are made from ruby and so impervious to wear that running them unlubricated doesn’t actually damage them. It does create more than a 0.001% change in friction though, so time keeping will wander, and a spec of dust working through the seals each time you pull the stem to adjust the time might land on the hair spring or balance wheel and change its weight by 0.001%.
A cheaper mechanical watch not surprisingly has a movement that isn’t made to the manufacturing tolerance or accuracy necessary to achieve consistent high accuracy during a production run. Some movements will be good, some won’t, but they’ll all go into watches and be sold because there isn’t the budget to test each one.
If your life is accurate to a second a day then a digital Casio is good, but if you want true mechanical beauty from a wrist mounted engine with springs and bearings, cogs and a ticking heart, then it has to be a mechanical watch. And what could be nicer in a digital world than an analogue machine operating to a 7000 year old, duodecimal numbering system?
Just my opinion of course.
edit: a 'chronograph' is a watch with a stopwatch :-]
Edited by Lorne on Wednesday 22 February 11:14
For me a mechanical watch has soul.
Its not perfect and requires a little daily/weekly ritual of correction and occasional winding in order to use it. Aside from that its a faithful friend that will be always there to help you tell the time, even if left in a drawer for several years.
A quartz watch has no soul. You don't have the daily/weekly rituals of winding or correcting the time (BST or travelling a side and even thats removed on some). It isn't quite the faithful friend a mechanical watch is as it will eventually require a new battery (usually when you want to wear it after wearing something else for a while). And then there's the tick tick tick of the second hand.....
The Bulova Precisionist take that a step further (but at least remove the tick tick tick of the second hand - the sweep of those is eerily smooth) by taking out the odd seconds per month inaccuracy of quartz and making it the odd seconds per year!That being said I do like the Precisionist for that smooth sweep!
The wristwatch is an amazing machine. It requires little to no maintenance, runs in an environment fraught with temperature change, vibration, shock and variable gravity and does it all for decades or centuries with no requirement for an external power source (manual wind watches excepted).
Its not perfect and requires a little daily/weekly ritual of correction and occasional winding in order to use it. Aside from that its a faithful friend that will be always there to help you tell the time, even if left in a drawer for several years.
A quartz watch has no soul. You don't have the daily/weekly rituals of winding or correcting the time (BST or travelling a side and even thats removed on some). It isn't quite the faithful friend a mechanical watch is as it will eventually require a new battery (usually when you want to wear it after wearing something else for a while). And then there's the tick tick tick of the second hand.....
The Bulova Precisionist take that a step further (but at least remove the tick tick tick of the second hand - the sweep of those is eerily smooth) by taking out the odd seconds per month inaccuracy of quartz and making it the odd seconds per year!That being said I do like the Precisionist for that smooth sweep!
The wristwatch is an amazing machine. It requires little to no maintenance, runs in an environment fraught with temperature change, vibration, shock and variable gravity and does it all for decades or centuries with no requirement for an external power source (manual wind watches excepted).
Lorne said:
As noted elsewhere, a chronograph is a watch with a stopwatch built into it. The little sub-dials measure stopwatch minutes (the dial at 12 o’clock below) and hours (6 o’clock) with stopwatch seconds being the main dial’s big second hand. If the stopwatch isn’t running this big second hand doesn’t move. The sub-dial at 9 o’clock is your watches’ normal running seconds, although many chronographs don’t include this for all those reasons to do with them not being terribly accurate.
A brand new mechanical movement can run a little fast at first, but this should only be a few seconds a day, and it should always be set fast rather than slow, as being early is better than being late. The timekeeping on a mechanical watch can be adjusted to within a second or two a day, but that needs you to wear it and report back as each person’s use is different. When you take it off at night for instance the watch will spend several hours below body temperature, the metals will contract a smidge and timekeeping will differ to when it’s at body temperature on your wrist. A second a day is 99.999% accuracy on a mechanical machine, so the difference between a warm bedroom and a cool one is easily a second or two. The running seconds at the 9 o’clock sub-dial in the picture below has 3 second hands, which is nothing at all to do with Mercedes, but so you never see the seconds hand more than a few seconds off the radio 4 pips. (Incidentally the logo has nothing to do with Maserati either)
The accuracy of mechanical watches really are staggeringly good when you consider that you have a miniaturised machine sitting on your wrist, subjected to a daily barrage of shocks and violent movements, and often able to withstand swimming in the sea, trekking through desert or arctic weather, and being immersed in mud or grease. It’s also a machine that will take the energy it needs to run from those movements and will work continuously for a few hundred years with nothing more than a drop of oil every once in a while. To be honest, you can skip the oil on most high end watches as the bearings are made from ruby and so impervious to wear that running them unlubricated doesn’t actually damage them. It does create more than a 0.001% change in friction though, so time keeping will wander, and a spec of dust working through the seals each time you pull the stem to adjust the time might land on the hair spring or balance wheel and change its weight by 0.001%.
A cheaper mechanical watch not surprisingly has a movement that isn’t made to the manufacturing tolerance or accuracy necessary to achieve consistent high accuracy during a production run. Some movements will be good, some won’t, but they’ll all go into watches and be sold because there isn’t the budget to test each one.
If your life is accurate to a second a day then a digital Casio is good, but if you want true mechanical beauty from a wrist mounted engine with springs and bearings, cogs and a ticking heart, then it has to be a mechanical watch. And what could be nicer in a digital world than an analogue machine operating to a 7000 year old, duodecimal numbering system?
Just my opinion of course.
edit: a 'chronograph' is a watch with a stopwatch :-]
That's a fantastic post, thank you, and I sort of get it, which is why I wanted an automatic watch, even if it was a "cheap" one. I do get the character thing, and the ticking heart; its why I'm on PH after all, and have a couple of classic cars, but I was shocked by the level of inaccuracy. My classic cars are an Audi and a Porsche 944, not a Lotus!!! I still want a level,of reliability if maintained properly.A brand new mechanical movement can run a little fast at first, but this should only be a few seconds a day, and it should always be set fast rather than slow, as being early is better than being late. The timekeeping on a mechanical watch can be adjusted to within a second or two a day, but that needs you to wear it and report back as each person’s use is different. When you take it off at night for instance the watch will spend several hours below body temperature, the metals will contract a smidge and timekeeping will differ to when it’s at body temperature on your wrist. A second a day is 99.999% accuracy on a mechanical machine, so the difference between a warm bedroom and a cool one is easily a second or two. The running seconds at the 9 o’clock sub-dial in the picture below has 3 second hands, which is nothing at all to do with Mercedes, but so you never see the seconds hand more than a few seconds off the radio 4 pips. (Incidentally the logo has nothing to do with Maserati either)
The accuracy of mechanical watches really are staggeringly good when you consider that you have a miniaturised machine sitting on your wrist, subjected to a daily barrage of shocks and violent movements, and often able to withstand swimming in the sea, trekking through desert or arctic weather, and being immersed in mud or grease. It’s also a machine that will take the energy it needs to run from those movements and will work continuously for a few hundred years with nothing more than a drop of oil every once in a while. To be honest, you can skip the oil on most high end watches as the bearings are made from ruby and so impervious to wear that running them unlubricated doesn’t actually damage them. It does create more than a 0.001% change in friction though, so time keeping will wander, and a spec of dust working through the seals each time you pull the stem to adjust the time might land on the hair spring or balance wheel and change its weight by 0.001%.
A cheaper mechanical watch not surprisingly has a movement that isn’t made to the manufacturing tolerance or accuracy necessary to achieve consistent high accuracy during a production run. Some movements will be good, some won’t, but they’ll all go into watches and be sold because there isn’t the budget to test each one.
If your life is accurate to a second a day then a digital Casio is good, but if you want true mechanical beauty from a wrist mounted engine with springs and bearings, cogs and a ticking heart, then it has to be a mechanical watch. And what could be nicer in a digital world than an analogue machine operating to a 7000 year old, duodecimal numbering system?
Just my opinion of course.
edit: a 'chronograph' is a watch with a stopwatch :-]
Edited by Lorne on Wednesday 22 February 11:14
And as I have said, CW appear to agree that the watch is out of tolerance and have agreed to investigate/ repair.
Good job I have a couple of other quartz watches though, because accuracy is important and Plus 40 secs per day is not acceptable; can't remember the last time I adjusted my Breitling or CW Quartz watches for being inaccurate. It's also why my daily driver is a BMW and not an Alfa!
andy97 said:
That's a fantastic post, thank you, and I sort of get it, which is why I wanted an automatic watch, even if it was a "cheap" one. I do get the character thing, and the ticking heart; its why I'm on PH after all, and have a couple of classic cars, but I was shocked by the level of inaccuracy. My classic cars are an Audi and a Porsche 944, not a Lotus!!! I still want a level,of reliability if maintained properly.
And as I have said, CW appear to agree that the watch is out of tolerance and have agreed to investigate/ repair.
Good job I have a couple of other quartz watches though, because accuracy is important and Plus 40 secs per day is not acceptable; can't remember the last time I adjusted my Breitling or CW Quartz watches for being inaccurate. It's also why my daily driver is a BMW and not an Alfa!
40 seconds per day is way off, but as CW use Swiss movements, it's probably just a case of adjusting the timing rather than replacing the movement. With a stock swiss movement anything outside 10 or 12 seconds a day is unacceptable. Properly adjusted it should be within 4 or 6 seconds. And as I have said, CW appear to agree that the watch is out of tolerance and have agreed to investigate/ repair.
Good job I have a couple of other quartz watches though, because accuracy is important and Plus 40 secs per day is not acceptable; can't remember the last time I adjusted my Breitling or CW Quartz watches for being inaccurate. It's also why my daily driver is a BMW and not an Alfa!
Interestingly I once had a Lotus Esprit as my daily driver, back when they were the future as oppose to a classic. Lots Of Trouble Usually Serious, but such a nice car you could forgive the odd case of collapsed suspension.
Lorne said:
40 seconds per day is way off, but as CW use Swiss movements, it's probably just a case of adjusting the timing rather than replacing the movement. With a stock swiss movement anything outside 10 or 12 seconds a day is unacceptable. Properly adjusted it should be within 4 or 6 seconds.
Interestingly I once had a Lotus Esprit as my daily driver, back when they were the future as oppose to a classic. Lots Of Trouble Usually Serious, but such a nice car you could forgive the odd case of collapsed suspension.
Your paragraph about the Esprit made me properly laugh out loud!Interestingly I once had a Lotus Esprit as my daily driver, back when they were the future as oppose to a classic. Lots Of Trouble Usually Serious, but such a nice car you could forgive the odd case of collapsed suspension.
andy97 said:
CW responded immediately and stated that accuracy should be +/- 20 secs for this watch model. They offered a fast track repair or refund. None in stock to replace. I will take the repair option.
Just to update, CW have new stock in and have decided to replace rather than repair. It will be interesting to see how accurate the new one is.Hi Andy
I have a Ball that I think has he same internals as the CW (ETA2824)
Having read this thread and having an anal OCD interest I checked it's accuracy over the week,
One day it was +/- 0
One day it was + 2
Two days it was +3
One day it was +5
Two days it was +6
Office based but with lots of walking, Watch taken off for sleeping,
So hopefully your new / repaired watch will be closer to this
Interestingly my Brightbling could be worn this style for weeks on end and never stopped but the Ball from a good wind will only last 5~7 days with this wear before stopping,
It also stops on the watch winder where as the Brightbling has been on it for over a month and is still ticking away
I have a Ball that I think has he same internals as the CW (ETA2824)
Having read this thread and having an anal OCD interest I checked it's accuracy over the week,
One day it was +/- 0
One day it was + 2
Two days it was +3
One day it was +5
Two days it was +6
Office based but with lots of walking, Watch taken off for sleeping,
So hopefully your new / repaired watch will be closer to this
Interestingly my Brightbling could be worn this style for weeks on end and never stopped but the Ball from a good wind will only last 5~7 days with this wear before stopping,
It also stops on the watch winder where as the Brightbling has been on it for over a month and is still ticking away
Two minutes out after a fortnight is pretty good for a cheap automatic. That is about +/- 8 seconds a day! You are mistaken if you arent satisfied with that.
If you want a Seiko that is accurate to a second or two then you will need a Grand Seiko: Rolex quality and timekeeping, along with a Rolex-like price tag.
If you want a Seiko that is accurate to a second or two then you will need a Grand Seiko: Rolex quality and timekeeping, along with a Rolex-like price tag.
GC8 said:
Two minutes out after a fortnight is pretty good for a cheap automatic. That is about +/- 8 seconds a day! You are mistaken if you arent satisfied with that.
.
Sure, but the point is that my original CW C60 was about 2 mins fast in 3 days..
Currently wearing and monitoring the replacement.
andy tims said:
hilly10 said:
My Oris GMT is a fantastic time keeper knocking my more expensive pieces out the water.
I've had several Damasko's and most of them were +/- 2 seconds a day.Of course, this really means that my pattern of usage complemented the particular movement, but it is impressive enough to mention, none the less.
andy97 said:
GC8 said:
Two minutes out after a fortnight is pretty good for a cheap automatic. That is about +/- 8 seconds a day! You are mistaken if you arent satisfied with that.
.
Sure, but the point is that my original CW C60 was about 2 mins fast in 3 days..
Currently wearing and monitoring the replacement.
My GMT II is currently losing just under 1 second a day.
It doesn't like being wound forward on a short month and takes a couple of days to settle down, it ran a bit slow when I drove cars with automatic gearboxes and keeps better time in a manual.
As someone else posted, automatic watches seem to have a 'soul' They definitely need to be worn 24/7 to get the best out of them.
It doesn't like being wound forward on a short month and takes a couple of days to settle down, it ran a bit slow when I drove cars with automatic gearboxes and keeps better time in a manual.
As someone else posted, automatic watches seem to have a 'soul' They definitely need to be worn 24/7 to get the best out of them.
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