Fake Rolex, Justified ?

[Stuart]

Balmoral Green said:

Anecdotally, years ago I was at a Bentley Drivers Club meet, and was talking to someone, apparently George Daniels had just referred to their Rolex as a 'tractor' on his wrist

Superb.

[ShadownINja]

Nero601 said:

what is the 'cache' of a rolex ? , i have never understood why anyone would want one , nasty ostentatious objects , i would never soil my wrist with one

Doesn't that depend on the model? I wouldn't say the Sub is flashy (of course, there may be a diamond encrusted version on a leopard skin strap). What I find funny about Rolexes is the end-pieces of the bracelet look like they were built in China... actually, the whole bracelet feels like it was built in China.



Look at the end-pieces. They have the design finesse of a drunk GCSE design student.

[Stuart]

There are very, very few Rolex models that I would wear. I care not one jot for a Daytona because I think it'll make me look like a city trader with more bonus than taste, and I think that the current Milgauss is also ugly. A Submariner is a classic piece of design and I would wear one, but that's about it.

The older stuff I feel differently about though. Some of their vintage dress watch pieces for men and women are beautifully understated, for example, and a classic Newman Daytona is a lovely thing.

The main thing for me is that I like watches to have a story, so the Milsub is a wonderful thing and generally looks beautifully patinated. Similarly I loved reading about Madoff's POW Rolex - imagine a watch made just for prisoners today for example...

So if a Rolex made it into my collection it would most likely be as a birth year watch. A 1974 S/N submariner (which would be the classic 5513 produced from the 60s through to 1990) would get wrist time from me. It would still be a toss up between that and a Siffert Autavia though.

[andy_s]

Stuart said:

Siffert Autavia

Lovely - the only one like that being made today which springs to mind is the Guinand (Helmut Sinn) Buren 12 which follows the design of the first automatic chronograph they made in the mid-sixties, not a mixed dial unfortunately!




(ETC - by 'like that' I mean pusher layout, movement (?) & date - the first Autavia ones had 'Chronomatic' on them as well)


As for Rolex, I'd agree that the Daytona is underfunctioned and overpriced - I never saw the appeal to be honest. The Sub is, as I've said before, a classic watch, irrespective of manufacturer perceptions. BG's comment about 'tractors' is about on the money - I think the movement in my Explorer II has been described as 'agricultural' and it's a fair one (same could be said for the Sub), but it is robust and accurate and reliable so I'm quite happy with the results but wouldn't describe it as 'fine' which doesn't bother me in the least.

Like a lot of things, if you take out the marketing blurb and 'lifestyle magazine' images you're actually left with a decent watch in its own right.

Edited by andy_s on Sunday 22 November 09:18

[Motorrad]

sneijder said:

I have to say though, I thought the link to sales funding nasties was a bit of an urban myth from the powers that be, from your experience is that true ? I'm not asking for specifics but if the monies really do go 'up the tree' to some dodgy activities that puts a whole different slant on it.

The factories are run by organised crime rings, it's the only way they can operate. We aren't talking about small time crooks here, it's a multi million dollar business.
As for the vendors I suppose it's analogous to if you believe small time street drug pushers are a detriment to society or not.

[Debaser]

Motorrad said:

As for the vendors I suppose it's analogous to if you believe small time street drug pushers are a detriment to society or not.

Only the ones who sell fake drugs.

[ShadownINja]

Motorrad said:

sneijder said:

I have to say though, I thought the link to sales funding nasties was a bit of an urban myth from the powers that be, from your experience is that true ? I'm not asking for specifics but if the monies really do go 'up the tree' to some dodgy activities that puts a whole different slant on it.

The factories are run by organised crime rings, it's the only way they can operate. We aren't talking about small time crooks here, it's a multi million dollar business.

But are we talking about crime rings that are crime rings because they do other stuff like manufacturing heroine or selling illegal arms to terrorists, or are they simple criminals because they make fake watches? And then... how many watches use ETA 2842-2 movements or Unitas movements as used in Panerais, for instance? And where else do these movements end up?

Actually, this reminds me. One of my watch enthusiast friends was showing me a watch he'd made with a flieger dial bought from ebay. You could just about make out the "IWC Shauffhausen" script in the dial that the manufacturer had tried to rub out. The watch industry is very blurry over there...

Edited by ShadownINja on Sunday 22 November 15:01

[sneijder]

After mulling it over I've gone off the idea. I'd never wear the thing, I already have a diver on a NATO.

I'll just drop hints from now until I retire !

[Silver993tt]

Motorrad said:

sneijder said:

I have to say though, I thought the link to sales funding nasties was a bit of an urban myth from the powers that be, from your experience is that true ? I'm not asking for specifics but if the monies really do go 'up the tree' to some dodgy activities that puts a whole different slant on it.

The factories are run by organised crime rings, it's the only way they can operate. We aren't talking about small time crooks here, it's a multi million dollar business.
As for the vendors I suppose it's analogous to if you believe small time street drug pushers are a detriment to society or not.

and the manufacturers of so called "original" watches aren't crooks when they charge $1000s for something that has a manufacturing cost of $10s? More the fools that support these companies.

[Trommel]

Silver993tt said:

and the manufacturers of so called "original" watches aren't crooks when they charge $1000s for something that has a manufacturing cost of $10s? More the fools that support these companies.

You mean a bit like Porsche?

[sneijder]

Silver993tt said:

Motorrad said:

sneijder said:

I have to say though, I thought the link to sales funding nasties was a bit of an urban myth from the powers that be, from your experience is that true ? I'm not asking for specifics but if the monies really do go 'up the tree' to some dodgy activities that puts a whole different slant on it.

The factories are run by organised crime rings, it's the only way they can operate. We aren't talking about small time crooks here, it's a multi million dollar business.
As for the vendors I suppose it's analogous to if you believe small time street drug pushers are a detriment to society or not.

and the manufacturers of so called "original" watches aren't crooks when they charge $1000s for something that has a manufacturing cost of $10s? More the fools that support these companies.

But they do rack up costs with sponsoring high end charlie sports, full page ads in all the glossies and not screwing them together in a sweatshop in China. These companies insist on George Cloony, Nicole Kidman, Leonardo DiCaprio and John Travolta etc to hawk their watches. It is a bit more than a lump of (not your avarage) steel. Most of these companies have been around since the year dot, and they'll be looking at the long term picture all the time. The result of this is, they won't put the breaks on because business is slack at the minute and knock them out at cost. Most of them have a brand name that's worth a fortune to preserve, indeed one or two are the brand name slapped on a totally different outfit from the original.

[CommanderJameson]

Silver993tt said:

The manufacturers of so called "original" watches aren't crooks when they charge $1000s for something that has a manufacturing cost of $10s? More the fools that support these companies.

What's the manufacturing cost of a Rolex Sub, including all the packaging and COSC certification?

[ShadownINja]

sneijder said:

Silver993tt said:

Motorrad said:

sneijder said:

I have to say though, I thought the link to sales funding nasties was a bit of an urban myth from the powers that be, from your experience is that true ? I'm not asking for specifics but if the monies really do go 'up the tree' to some dodgy activities that puts a whole different slant on it.

The factories are run by organised crime rings, it's the only way they can operate. We aren't talking about small time crooks here, it's a multi million dollar business.
As for the vendors I suppose it's analogous to if you believe small time street drug pushers are a detriment to society or not.

and the manufacturers of so called "original" watches aren't crooks when they charge $1000s for something that has a manufacturing cost of $10s? More the fools that support these companies.

But they do rack up costs with sponsoring high end charlie sports, full page ads in all the glossies and not screwing them together in a sweatshop in China. These companies insist on George Cloony, Nicole Kidman, Leonardo DiCaprio and John Travolta etc to hawk their watches. It is a bit more than a lump of (not your avarage) steel. Most of these companies have been around since the year dot, and they'll be looking at the long term picture all the time. The result of this is, they won't put the breaks on because business is slack at the minute and knock them out at cost. Most of them have a brand name that's worth a fortune to preserve, indeed one or two are the brand name slapped on a totally different outfit from the original.

So, what you're saying is that we're paying for expensive advertising and the brand name. Nice.

[Silver993tt]

ShadownINja said:

sneijder said:

Silver993tt said:

Motorrad said:

sneijder said:

I have to say though, I thought the link to sales funding nasties was a bit of an urban myth from the powers that be, from your experience is that true ? I'm not asking for specifics but if the monies really do go 'up the tree' to some dodgy activities that puts a whole different slant on it.

The factories are run by organised crime rings, it's the only way they can operate. We aren't talking about small time crooks here, it's a multi million dollar business.
As for the vendors I suppose it's analogous to if you believe small time street drug pushers are a detriment to society or not.

and the manufacturers of so called "original" watches aren't crooks when they charge $1000s for something that has a manufacturing cost of $10s? More the fools that support these companies.

But they do rack up costs with sponsoring high end charlie sports, full page ads in all the glossies and not screwing them together in a sweatshop in China. These companies insist on George Cloony, Nicole Kidman, Leonardo DiCaprio and John Travolta etc to hawk their watches. It is a bit more than a lump of (not your avarage) steel. Most of these companies have been around since the year dot, and they'll be looking at the long term picture all the time. The result of this is, they won't put the breaks on because business is slack at the minute and knock them out at cost. Most of them have a brand name that's worth a fortune to preserve, indeed one or two are the brand name slapped on a totally different outfit from the original.

So, what you're saying is that we're paying for expensive advertising and the brand name. Nice.

The sponsoring is advertising tomake them even more money, it isn't out of their care for the community. So they're using famous actors to promote their products even more and who's payingthese actors for their time? - those that pay the over inflated prices in the first place.

[Vipers]

sneijder said:

Before you shoot me down, bear with me.

RemaL appeared on another thread asking about a Sinn UX, and I jokingly linked to the Bonhams auction recently that was hawking one of these :



A military issued Sub at around 30k IIRC.

Then someone on the 'Bell and Ross snide' thread mentioned a couple of hooky watch sites and I went looking and found they did a knock off of the above. Now I will happily wear a 'homage' if it's a sterile dial or a close to the knuckle Seiko similar styled piece or somesuch. I would never be such a shallow twonk that I'd flash a non kosher Rolex around.

However I'd love a knock off of this as it's such an iconic thing. I don't mix with people who know a sausage about watches, although I guess they would know a Rolex if they saw it. I would happily explain it's a fake as I could never afford the real thing. Or should I just get one and wear it in the house. I know what the real answer is, I can't afford the real thing so I shouldn't wing it, *sigh*

If its a real military watch, it won't have pins for the straps, it will be part of the body, if you want more spec, visit my pals website, 911DM has posted the link on page 1.

Edited by Vipers on Sunday 22 November 18:08

Edited by Vipers on Sunday 22 November 18:08

[Motorrad]

ShadownINja said:

So, what you're saying is that we're paying for expensive advertising and the brand name. Nice.

Anyone who thinks that the build quality,support and accuracy of even the best fake watches is anything like a genuine watch is kidding themselves. People also seem to forget things like design and testing costs never mind taxation.

As I've said before counterfeiting is just one more piece of the pie for organised criminals to exploit. I'm not going into details here but the relationship between chinese gangsters and the factories in places like Shenzhen and Guangzhou is well known by the trade and law enforcement.

Regarding Rolex purchases every single piece I've purchased is worth more now than I paid for it. Had I left the money in a UK bank it would have devalued by approx 30% against the Dollar and Euro. I think the people who left their money sat in the bank and purchased fake tat are probably the idiots personally speaking.

Edited by Motorrad on Sunday 22 November 18:14

[sneijder]

Aye, they had fixed bars for the NATO straps.

I'm not sitting here saying Rolex produce value for money watches, I'm pointing out where the money goes. A massive chunk they never see in the first place anyway as the retailer stuffs that under his mattress after knocking you a fiver off, then there's all the other costs I was waffling on about.

Another factor overlooked was mentioned on here a while ago, I forget who posted it. The gist is you can't just scribble 'Waterproof' on the dial and cross your fingers. IIRC it was anything over 200m has to be tested individually, and in the case of a Rolex this is 2 weeks. OK they probably do a fair few at the same time but it's another cost.

Again, I couldn't justify buying one claiming they are good value for money, but they certainly don't cost a tenner to make.

Lastly, Google 'Rolex Profits' for a bit of a surprise.

[Silver993tt]

sneijder said:

Lastly, Google 'Rolex Profits' for a bit of a surprise.

Yes but those are profits AFTER all expenses which include the huge bonuses/salaries/other forms of payment avoiding taxes that are paid to all of the management there.

[ShadownINja]

Motorrad said:

ShadownINja said:

So, what you're saying is that we're paying for expensive advertising and the brand name. Nice.

Anyone who thinks that the build quality,support and accuracy of even the best fake watches is anything like a genuine watch is kidding themselves. People also seem to forget things like design and testing costs never mind taxation.

As I've said before counterfeiting is just one more piece of the pie for organised criminals to exploit. I'm not going into details here but the relationship between chinese gangsters and the factories in places like Shenzhen and Guangzhou is well known by the trade and law enforcement.

Regarding Rolex purchases every single piece I've purchased is worth more now than I paid for it. Had I left the money in a UK bank it would have devalued by approx 30% against the Dollar and Euro. I think the people who left their money sat in the bank and purchased fake tat are probably the idiots personally speaking.

Edited by Motorrad on Sunday 22 November 18:14

I was thinking about other brands of watches with very similar movements, tbh.

Re leaving money sat in the bank, is all your cash in Rolexes then?

[Motorrad]

ShadownINja said:

Re leaving money sat in the bank, is all your cash in Rolexes then?

No