Bell & Ross - Thoughts?
Discussion
I hated them first time I saw one. they have grown on my enough to warrant a 'lookilike' but not to shell out that sort of money on something that although is quite unique is ultimately nothing special. To me they are Pan equivalents - overpriced for what they are, but unlike Pan the second hand market is probably good for them.
I actually tried one on in Selfidges a few months ago - well 'try' would be an overstatement, I sort of balanced it on my wrist as the strap was 2cm away from meeting let alone fastening. I thought it was much less imposing in the flesh, its a fairly slim watch (by my standards).
For me, go with your alternative and get the Glashutte - now they are unique and very very special. And buying second hand is the best way to get a watch that 'holds value' if this is important.
I actually tried one on in Selfidges a few months ago - well 'try' would be an overstatement, I sort of balanced it on my wrist as the strap was 2cm away from meeting let alone fastening. I thought it was much less imposing in the flesh, its a fairly slim watch (by my standards).
For me, go with your alternative and get the Glashutte - now they are unique and very very special. And buying second hand is the best way to get a watch that 'holds value' if this is important.
ApexJimi said:
andy tims said:
Can't get past the fact that on a watch that expensive they don't get the 4 screws on the front of the case aligned - would mess with my OCD big time if I had one.
Me too, would drive me insane, ditto with the Hublot Big BangsUnacceptable on a watch at that price point IMO, indicates lack of attention to detail, and surely high horology should be about the fine detail, no? (have haute horlogerie if you prefer to mix up english and french)
Hublot Big Bangs can be had as 'replicas' (I'm feeling in the mood to chuck petrol about and see if someone starts a fire - and always like to provoke Motorrad with his OTT lashings out at the counterfeiters
) that even bloody Hublot ADs can't spot - a mailshot was provided to all Hublot ADs by Hublot HQ which admitted that some fakes will be virtually impossible to tell even if you dismantle the movement - sheepish as hell. So NOT a fan of Big Bangs.Bell and Ross are a bit less fashionable so not targeted by the *real* expert counterfeiters, so I'm not sure if the 'replica' B&R watches are up to the standard of the genuine items yet. Usually the real thing has to be popular enough for demand to make it worthwhile to get the crooked CNC machinist experts to take apart a real one - plus the margins are very thin so the actual outlay of actually *buying* a genuine watch to take apart and measure can be too high for the less popular models.
Why do I bring fakes into the discussion (and potentially derail the thread)? Because I have a vested interest in all of this. The OP effectively asked whether the watches were 'special' enough to justify the price tags, or are they yet another boggo-ETA movement in a branded case being sold at £thousands more than cost price. I really *don't* have time for the watch 'brands' (I won't give them the honour of calling them 'manufactures') who just take basic ETA movements, pop them in distinctive cases with heavy, prominent branding, and then sell them in the > £1500 price range. The movements cost up to £500 IIRC, and I know that Swatch are trying to restrict ETA sales but all this is going to do is drive the ETA-badge-engineers to buy their ETA ébauches from other factories that make ETA movements... the Chinese. How much do you think an ETA base movement costs when it's made by Liaoning Watch Factory or Sea-Gull? They *both* are established Chinese movement makers (Sea-Gull more respected than Liaoning, but neither are 'cheap shoddy rubbish' factories) and both make 'clones' of popular ETA movements. Specifically, Liaoning make a copy of the Valjoux 7750, which is used in all the Hublot Big Bangs, and presumably some of the B&R chronographs (I'm not sure about B&R).
Basically, if the watch costs > £1500 then I either want the case and bracelet to be worth that in whatever material they use (i.e. precious metal, and I wouldn't be seen dead with a full-bracelet gold watch - well I probably *would* be seen dead, but the watch would have been stolen
) or I want an in-house movement, or a significantly re-engineered ETA, or at least enough 'special' engineering to make the watch 'special'.If I can source a 'replica' which is a good enough copy of the genuine watch to fool most ADs (e.g. Hublot Big Bang) then, to me, the genuine watch is NOT worth the money (assuming the counterfeit is around $400, which the top ones are - I'm not talking about Hong Kong handmade specials where the counterfeit costs nearly as much as a real one). I don't give a flying f
k about the morals of the situation - if the replica exists, then it is possible to build (maybe with illegally cheap labour, but that's not relevant) the watch for less than £500 i.e. the materials cost is at most £500, and any additional price charged by the watch 'brand' is pure marketing. I'll give them £1000 for assembly and QC in Switzerland, plus the expense of advertising and promoting the brand, making it 'aspirational' in the eyes of the public, yadda yadda. But no more than that. If the genuine watch is more than £2000 (e.g. some Breitlings which you can get identical copies of for $350) then the watch 'brand' is taking the piss and they are NOT worth the money.I use Jaeger-LeCoultre as a yardstick, and further down the price range, Seiko. They make their own stuff and don't overprice it.
So - on topic - if B&R use ETA, what do they do to them? The cases are a distinctive, copyrighted design - good stuff. Are they made out of 'special' materials? Any 'special' treatments or manufacturing techniques that distinguish them? Titanium's always a good one - the counterfeiters did go through a period of being able to make titanium copies but never to the standard of the Swiss. If there isn't anything super-special apart from the look of the watch, then I'd see what the counterfeiters are making. If they are making, right now, counterfeit B&R watches that are virtually indistinguishable from the genuine article, then genuine B&R watches are NOT value for money. Not at brand new, retail prices. That's my yardstick.
Second hand B&R may be good value though - of course when you start talking second hand, you need to know the difference between a genuine watch and a fake. And that's why I know about fakes, because I like buying watches second hand, and I haven't been sold a fake 'by accident' yet (yes, even the dealers get caught out sometimes, and will readily admit it).
Why the watch 'brands' don't do *more* to make it hard for the counterfeiters, I don't know. Perhaps the watch 'brands' themselves actually get their watches made in China too... in which case the 'brands' are just as deceitful as the counterfeiters.
For a good example of a 'brand' using ETA movements, but doing a little extra to make them special, and then charging *realistic* prices for the finished piece - look at Sinn. An ETA-based watch shouldn't cost more than Sinn money IMO, unless the case / bracelet is 'special' or the movement is substantially re-engineered (e.g. IWC). Many here disagree with me, but I think my argument is consistent and rational
I'd have to say I agree with you but for two factors:
1) Black Lume. So cool, it belongs in the Top Gear DB9 fridge.
2) I have bought both of mine second hand, and therefore the cost is less than a new one. Which makes them good in my book (especially as I don't care about the screws, and adore the styling).
But it's strange that I can't stand the Big Bangs, or any of the AP stuff. Strange, I know, but there we go. Horses for courses...
1) Black Lume. So cool, it belongs in the Top Gear DB9 fridge.
2) I have bought both of mine second hand, and therefore the cost is less than a new one. Which makes them good in my book (especially as I don't care about the screws, and adore the styling).
But it's strange that I can't stand the Big Bangs, or any of the AP stuff. Strange, I know, but there we go. Horses for courses...
Don1 said:
I'd have to say I agree with you but for two factors:
1) Black Lume. So cool, it belongs in the Top Gear DB9 fridge.
2) I have bought both of mine second hand, and therefore the cost is less than a new one. Which makes them good in my book (especially as I don't care about the screws, and adore the styling).
But it's strange that I can't stand the Big Bangs, or any of the AP stuff. Strange, I know, but there we go. Horses for courses...
As I said, I'm not sure what B&R do with their movements - whether they are boggo ETA or re-engineered with special bits - my rant was a bit off-centre because it's not aimed directly at B&R unless they really do just recase normal ETAs with nice square boxes.1) Black Lume. So cool, it belongs in the Top Gear DB9 fridge.
2) I have bought both of mine second hand, and therefore the cost is less than a new one. Which makes them good in my book (especially as I don't care about the screws, and adore the styling).
But it's strange that I can't stand the Big Bangs, or any of the AP stuff. Strange, I know, but there we go. Horses for courses...
That said, black lume? No counterfeiter will have that - it's only in the last year that counterfeits have had any lume at all, since Luminova etc. paint was so damn expensive that the counterfeiters wouldn't give any to the cheap labour they employed, since it made more money for the cheap labour to sell the expensive paint than assemble a watch for the cartels!
Counterfeits *do* have good lume today. But only the basic colour stuff - black lume seems to be a B&R 'special' and, therefore, something to make the genuine piece special.
And second-hand - again as I said, IMO second-hand genuine is the best way to acquire a quality watch, unless the genuine is just an ETA re-case and you can't tell the difference between genuine and fake (hence lots of scum buying replicas and then selling them on eBay as 'used genuine' watches). I'd say that the black lume would be a good tell for a second-hand B&R Phantom, don't you say?
Not knocking B&R because as I've admitted, I don't know exactly how much they add on top of the base ETA movement (if they use ETA at all - hell, they could be using a stock of old Lemanias from the 60s for all I know). AFAIK, B&R don't make their own movements. Hence, I have to apply the cyberface replica test.
Apologies if, as a result, it sounds like I'm slagging off your chosen watch - I'm not. Just explaining my reasoning, because if I was in the market for a B&R then it'd be a used watch, and I'd be wary of being sold a fake. The black lume would be an easy tell against fakes, my gut reaction tells me, but I'll have a look around...
Cyber - couldn't agree with you more! I just like them, and got them (fairly) cheap... And black lume - oh yes!
They also share box-room with a Zenith, Omega, TAGs, Breitling, Oakley, G-Shock etc etc etc - and some Seagulls
I'm not fussed about what is in it - if I like them, I get them. Which is why I don't have Pateks, Rolex or anything that just screams 'name' to me without looking good. But I have to say, a Lange would go down a treat...
And I have to say, I'm really thinking about getting some full on fakes of particular watches - not to wear, but to mount up together and look at them as art. But that's another thread.
They also share box-room with a Zenith, Omega, TAGs, Breitling, Oakley, G-Shock etc etc etc - and some Seagulls
I'm not fussed about what is in it - if I like them, I get them. Which is why I don't have Pateks, Rolex or anything that just screams 'name' to me without looking good. But I have to say, a Lange would go down a treat...And I have to say, I'm really thinking about getting some full on fakes of particular watches - not to wear, but to mount up together and look at them as art. But that's another thread.
Edited by RTBmotorsport on Thursday 17th December 21:31
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Edited by RTBmotorsport on Thursday 17th December 21:39
cyberface said:
For a good example of a 'brand' using ETA movements, but doing a little extra to make them special, and then charging *realistic* prices for the finished piece - look at Sinn. An ETA-based watch shouldn't cost more than Sinn money IMO, unless the case / bracelet is 'special' or the movement is substantially re-engineered (e.g. IWC). Many here disagree with me, but I think my argument is consistent and rational
Hmm - does that include IWC? Back on the subject, personally I find B&R to be a "style" watch that in a few years will show its age and most will be left in the drawer to gather dust. A friend recently bought one and, apart from it looking like a soup plate on my puny wrist, I was totally underwhelmed.lowdrag said:
cyberface said:
For a good example of a 'brand' using ETA movements, but doing a little extra to make them special, and then charging *realistic* prices for the finished piece - look at Sinn. An ETA-based watch shouldn't cost more than Sinn money IMO, unless the case / bracelet is 'special' or the movement is substantially re-engineered (e.g. IWC). Many here disagree with me, but I think my argument is consistent and rational
Hmm - does that include IWC? Back on the subject, personally I find B&R to be a "style" watch that in a few years will show its age and most will be left in the drawer to gather dust. A friend recently bought one and, apart from it looking like a soup plate on my puny wrist, I was totally underwhelmed.Nothing wrong with styling, but I prefer design to have some root in functionality,
fergus said:
cyberface said:
a whole heap of interesting points
one of the best replies I've ever seen on here! 
That explains why most of my watches are sub £250!
Nick_F said:
Nothing wrong with styling, but I prefer design to have some root in functionality,
The design and size of the 01-92 range is that they perfectly fit the cockpit instrument pannel of the Mirage jet (and most other planes).As well as aping their styling (I know, I know...;))
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