How to spot a fake?

[tertius]

eccles said:

tertius said:

eccles said:

bazking69 said:

It is usually the movement that gives them away. Even the best fakes don't have that perfect seemless sweeping movement of the genuine article.

Is it just a 'standard' automatic movement in them, or is it a high beat movement?

What is this "seemless sweeping movement" you refer to? Most Rolex movements run at 28,800 vph which is a completely ordinary frequency for an automatic movement - 8 ticks per second. They even slowed down the Zenith El Primero movement when the put it in the Daytona from its (exceptional) 36,000 vph when used by Zenith.

I understood that most automatic movements ran at about 17,000 vph. The original High beats were 36,000vph, but the standard later became 28,000vph.

My Longines Ultra Chron runs at 36,000 vph and that is almost a seemless sweep, but if you look closely enough, you can just about see the 'ticks'.

Well it depends how you define most of course, but many mechanical movements run at 28,800, including the ETA 2824-2, which is probably the most widely used base movement in Swiss watch making.

I guess if you look at pure numbers then something like a Miyota movement is probably commonest, think they usually run at 21,600 vph.

There are movements that run at 18,000 (not sure about 17,000 I guess that was a typo?), including the Unitas 6497 (and related) but that is a hand wound movement, originally meant for pocket watches.

My point was only that it is not unusual for a movement to run at 28,800, and there is nothing exceptional about Rolex in this regard.

[eccles]

That was a Typo! fat finger syndrome.

I tend to think in pre quartz days as vintage watches are more my thing and things have moved on a bit since the late 60's early 70's.

[cyberface]

You'll have all sorts of problems spotting a top-end steel Sub fake. The 'replica' guys have pretty much perfected the copies, the only way you can tell is by opening the case and looking at the movement.

The best replicas use ETA 2836-2 movements. These may either be sourced from ETA themselves, or, more usually, bought from Sea-Gull or Liaoning Watch Factory (two well-known Chinese manufacturers).

The latest craze in Rolex Sub replicas is the replica movement... the counterfeiters take the ETA base ébauche, and then nickel-plate the movement (normal ETA 2836-2 movements normally come gilded), modify a couple of the bridges, and engrave the Rolex 3135 movement code onto it.

You can tell the difference between the Rolex movement and the modified ETA movement because the ETA one has a different shock-protection spring (incabloc) on the balance cap jewel.

Alternatively, I seem to recall that the ETA movement advances the quick-set date by turning the crown the *opposite* direction to the Rolex movement.

But you're not going to be able to tell a fake Rolex without removing the case if it's one of the best replicas. People who claim they can are either talking about older, cheaper, shoddier fakes, or are blustering. The top-end replica makers are churning out product that looks *identical* to the real Rolex, and, if serviced immediately after purchase, will keep just as good time and will last many years. It's really showing up how much margin Rolex are making...

It's also the reason why I prefer to buy watches with interesting complications... any watch which is a simple day/date, or already based on a Valjoux 7750, will be replicated by the Chinese to perfection.

Incidentally if you *do* want a sports Rolex but don't want the possibility of a fake, get one of the GMT models (GMT-master or Explorer-II) because the order of the hands (minute, hour, 24-hour) is different on the Rolex movement compared to the ETA movement that the replica-guys use, and it's an easy tell.

[Dan_1981]

I've kept hold of it from my friend, to have a proper play with it, but i can't for the life of me get the back off it.

Would be interested just to see what is in there.

[glamdring]

cyberface said:

will keep just as good time and will last many years.

Generally, Rolexes (along with many other automatic watches) do not keep good time. Depending on which way the watch is laid down when taken off will either advance or retard the timing slightly.

The biggest giveaway to me in this picture is the magnification of the date bubble. Off by miles. And I firmly believe that if you gave me a replica, no matter how good, I'd be able to tell you it was a replica within 10 minutes, without taking it apart. If you own a Rolex (I own two, as it happens - not bragging about it, it's just a statement relevant to the thread), then you ought to be able to tell. If not - then you should have bought a fake anyway and saved yourself the three grand.

[cyberface]

glamdring said:

cyberface said:

will keep just as good time and will last many years.

Generally, Rolexes (along with many other automatic watches) do not keep good time. Depending on which way the watch is laid down when taken off will either advance or retard the timing slightly.

The biggest giveaway to me in this picture is the magnification of the date bubble. Off by miles. And I firmly believe that if you gave me a replica, no matter how good, I'd be able to tell you it was a replica within 10 minutes, without taking it apart. If you own a Rolex (I own two, as it happens - not bragging about it, it's just a statement relevant to the thread), then you ought to be able to tell. If not - then you should have bought a fake anyway and saved yourself the three grand.

It would take less than 10 minutes since you'd just try the quick-set date advance. I've owned both an Explorer and a steel Daytona (one of those itches that needed scratching). The Sub with date and SD can be checked with the direction of the quick-set date advance. The Explorer and the GMT-Master can be checked with the hand stack order. No Daytona rep is perfect due to the fact the reps use VJ7750 movements. However, a Sub without the date would be impossible to tell without opening the case.

Plenty of ADs and watch dealers have been fooled by good replicas... perhaps you should set up as a watch trader if you think you can tell every time... I've seen some incredibly accurate replicas and when the lads at SWC say they've been caught out by fakes before, I don't doubt them.

As to your comment about automatic watches not keeping good time.... you're new to this forum, right???

[glamdring]

cyberface said:

Plenty of ADs and watch dealers have been fooled by good replicas... perhaps you should set up as a watch trader if you think you can tell every time... I've seen some incredibly accurate replicas and when the lads at SWC say they've been caught out by fakes before, I don't doubt them.

As to your comment about automatic watches not keeping good time.... you're new to this forum, right???

Oh dear. Clearly you are one of these cocks who has no life and wants to argue with others all the time, and prove you know more than them? Well, I've got news for you. Been there, done that. Ta ta.

[cyberface]

glamdring said:

cyberface said:

Plenty of ADs and watch dealers have been fooled by good replicas... perhaps you should set up as a watch trader if you think you can tell every time... I've seen some incredibly accurate replicas and when the lads at SWC say they've been caught out by fakes before, I don't doubt them.

As to your comment about automatic watches not keeping good time.... you're new to this forum, right???

Oh dear. Clearly you are one of these cocks who has no life and wants to argue with others all the time, and prove you know more than them? Well, I've got news for you. Been there, done that. Ta ta.

You mean that you've been a cock who has no life and wants to argue with others all the time? Bully for you old bean, I'm not and I don't. There was nothing rude or aggressive in my post to warrant your keyboard-warrior outburst, and we don't want that sort of thing on this forum (it's a friendly corner of Pistonheads and always has been) so please wind your neck back in.

[Garlick]

glamdring said:

Oh dear. Clearly you are one of these cocks who has no life and wants to argue with others all the time, and prove you know more than them? Well, I've got news for you. Been there, done that. Ta ta.

Sir.

The watch forum has always been a friendly corner of PH, and we want it to stay that way.

Please be decent in here, it's the way we like it and the way we expect it to be. I'm sure that if you play by the house rules you will find it a nice part of the site.

[rhinochopig]

Garlick said:

glamdring said:

Oh dear. Clearly you are one of these cocks who has no life and wants to argue with others all the time, and prove you know more than them? Well, I've got news for you. Been there, done that. Ta ta.

Sir.

The watch forum has always been a friendly corner of PH, and we want it to stay that way.

Please be decent in here, it's the way we like it and the way we expect it to be. I'm sure that if you play by the house rules you will find it a nice part of the site.

Hope you get paid overtime Garlick!

[NJH]

I really don't get you guys, could you not tell that watch is a fake within the first second of clapping eyes on it? Its so wrong its just not true and tbh its not even a half way decent fake. Just look at the indices for a start, there so big and the metal surrounds so big and bold it jumps out at you and looks frankly silly.

[Garlick]

rhinochopig said:

Hope you get paid overtime Garlick!

I do it for the love. But at least at this time of night I get to work and drink red wine at the same time

[Kinky]

rhinochopig said:

Hope you get paid overtime Garlick!

No ... that's what the rest of us do

[NJH]

Garlick said:

glamdring said:

Oh dear. Clearly you are one of these cocks who has no life and wants to argue with others all the time, and prove you know more than them? Well, I've got news for you. Been there, done that. Ta ta.

Sir.

The watch forum has always been a friendly corner of PH, and we want it to stay that way.

In the greater scheme things PH in general has a habit of kicking off, this part of the forum I have left and come back to again at least twice due to internet cockery of the worst form. The first time was after a 10+ pager about fake watches the 2nd after a cabal started slagging off TZ-UK.

[NJH]

I think this issue of fakes is a tad overblown. Very few ppl are willing to pay for the top quality replicas, there seems to be more of a problem with Franken watches if anything or scams where someone has got a genuine one cheap without all the correct box/papers etc and tried to add fake/ebay accesories to bump it up in value. As an example after following TZ-UK for the past couple of years I can only remember 2 cases where someone was unlucky to get caught by a fake and in both cases they spotted it and AFAIK the issue was resolved. One ISTR was a Panerai which was resolved amicably by the trader and the the other was a so called super fake TAG chronograph. Someone commented that that particular super fake TAG costs about 400 to 500 quid which is crazy as the real thing secondhand is about a grand. The buyer spotted for example that the bracelet didn't fit right on the case, on closer inspection the finishing actually looked pretty poor. That coupled with a movement missing features from the 7750 version in the real TAG added up to a much inferior product, IMHO considering that one can buy non fake european watches with the same design movement in them for the same money, this hardly shows that the fakes are showing up the real worth of watches as some seem to imply. There has always been brands that represent much better VFM then others, this was true before the super fakes and hasn't changed. What is scary though having said all that is that the dial and hands on the super fake TAG looked exactly the same as the real thing (raises questions in my mind if both the real and fake parts where made in the same chinese factory, but that is another point). As has been said by previous posters trusting tells like fonts on the dial or the shape of the crown guards is not a safe approach as really these details should be easy to get right, making a movement that really works and feels the same I am not to sure. BTW the ETA gmt movement, can't recall the ref number has the quickset in the opposite direction to the 2824 and doesn't suffer from the scuffing sound you get when winding a 2824 etc. It would however require modifying to work in a sub/sd to be convincing and has a fair few of its own pecularities any way.

[Lost soul]

bazking69 said:

It is usually the movement that gives them away. Even the best fakes don't have that perfect seemless sweeping movement of the genuine article.

But they do not sweep , the second hand makes very small ticks as it were

[Lost soul]

glamdring said:

cyberface said:

Plenty of ADs and watch dealers have been fooled by good replicas... perhaps you should set up as a watch trader if you think you can tell every time... I've seen some incredibly accurate replicas and when the lads at SWC say they've been caught out by fakes before, I don't doubt them.

As to your comment about automatic watches not keeping good time.... you're new to this forum, right???

Oh dear. Clearly you are one of these cocks who has no life and wants to argue with others all the time, and prove you know more than them? Well, I've got news for you. Been there, done that. Ta ta.

My rolex has never kept very good time , i have a lot of friends with rolex and they neve keep very good time

[T450t]

As I am sure you know I am new to this forum and to be honest reading threads about fakes and what to look for is a tread worth it's weight. Shame this ones got like the car forums. Over the past 6 months through reading on here and other forums you get to learn enough to dip your toes which I have lately. Without the forums the fakers would have the market sewn up.

So why on earth does a fake thread cause trouble !!

Some folk want to remember not everyone is an expert



Mark.