Replica watches
Discussion
Kindersley said:
cyberface said:
Thank feck I really adore JLC, eh? That's one manufacture that doesn't have accurate fakes.
Its possible to buy EXCELLENT JLC and VC "Frankies" 
But I'm going to call you on this one.Firstly, which range of watches are we talking here. JLC make a LOT of their own movements and there aren't many that *I* like that lend themselves to bodging an ETA inside instead.
Secondly, if you mean a Frankie with the 'franken' part being the actual movement… well that's a fake case, strap / bracelet, dial, hands, crowns… and a genuine movement. And that's got me in a spin because to me, the heart of the watch is its movement and never more so than with JLC. They happily sell their gorgeous, hand-made, awesomely *difficult to make* movements (even for one of JLC's master watchmakers) in plain steel cases and plain steel bracelets (nicely designed and with neat touches, of course) or plain leather straps - because the magic is in the movement. For less pecunious enthusiasts such as I, it offers the chance of a top-three manufacture movement without the added £20k loading purely because the movement is only offered in a precious metal case. Patek only sell their complications in 18k gold or platinum - adding multiple tens of thousands to the price purely in scrap value alone. Sadly, outside the sports range (ding
), Breguet do the same annoying thing. A Classique perpetual calendar or tourbillon (can't have more chronographs!!!) in steel (white steel - maybe nick some of Rolex's 904L or choose an even brighter grade) would suit me - it's the movement, not the lump of gold on my wrist, that appeals.That said, I do quite like rose gold and if I had the money, and my Classique Breguet *had* to be gold, it'd be rose gold. But I don't really want precious metal taken seriously, so my idea rose gold 'posh' watch would be one that doesn't take itself quite so seriously - a Franck Muller Casablanca chrono, a lovely curvy watch that doesn't look too bad on my white wrists (and on topic, a very very nice replica is available of this watch, but the genuine they used to copy from was the PVD version, so the caseback engraving has the coding for the PVD version… even on the steel and rose gold (plated) versions).
So back to what I was saying - if you mean that you can get very accurate JLC Frankenwatches with JLC movements in them - I'd be tempted so say something controversial (again - for a 'genuine' watch enthusiast!) and claim that once you've put a real, genuine, verified TRUE JLC movement in your fake, it ceases to become a fake. It's now the soul of the original watch (perhaps the case got damaged beyond repair… or more likely, got stolen) but re-cased. Ideally you'd get JLC to re-case it, but if it's hot then you will not
But given the importance of leather straps (replaced frequently) and steel bracelets (some 'replicas' better quality than the 'genuine' - probably both made in same factories) - it's only the case, and the movement. To me, it's the movement. ALL the movement.Put a verified genuine JLC movement in your 'Frankie' and I'm happy it's the soul of a real JLC. The only thing that'd flip it into 'immoral' territory (as per counterfeits) is if the reason the JLC movement was available without its case, is because the watch was stolen and broken to components. That'd be sad, but even though you'd have stolen goods… to me it's still a real JLC. Just a stolen one.
Take my best watch, for example. It's my 'sports' JLC (I have a vintage 50s/60s small gold handwind that seemed cheap on eBay, turned out to be genuine too, or maybe a frankie - gen movement, as I said, good enough for me) but I'm finding it too 'special' to wear as a daily. It's a Reverso Gran'Sport Chronographe in plain old stainless steel. But the movement… Calibre 859, an awesome technical achievement - to quote "Movement constructor Philippe Vandel once described its 3 year development process as the most grueling. It was more arduous than the 1993 tourbillon development, according to Vandel" - hell, read the article about the movement on the 'PuristS' forum site here, it's fascinating - Vandel himself looks to be a bit of a dandy in that portrait photo but I've got his creation, and I love it.
Whilst I paid less for this watch (used) than most of my other 'good' watches (some due to stupidity, such as the Daytona, but given that I paid less than the Tudor and the IWC, the JLC can only be described as a bargain), it's got an insurance replacement valuation above £9k. This frightens me and has reduced the regularity of wear, but it's a simply beautiful piece.
I know how good replicas can be. Some can even give off that hard-to-define sense of 'beauty' and 'preciousness' - even though they were assembled from parts by low-paid Chinese 'assemblers' who probably hold no more passion for their craft than the next grey-market job that brings them in a few more renminbi. You'd expect the replica to have no 'soul' as a result. But some, very rarely, do.
I just can't see how even a Frankie could get close to my Reverso though. All the counterfeiter could do is acquire a Calibre 859 from somewhere, then do the best job they possibly could on replicating the case (easy), the Reverso mechanism (more tricky), the dials (always *something* slightly out), and the bracelet (easy, but these JLC bracelets have 'captive' spring-bars and each link is chamfered and polished - it'd take a little more work than a boggo Oyster). It'd be possible. But they'd need the Calibre 859 - there's NO way they could achieve this any other way. And JLC found these movements so hard to make that (according to the article) they lost money on each one. Counterfeiters aren't in business to lose money. To back up the article, part of the reason why my watch was a bargain was because the trader hadn't totally checked the watch and the retrograde totaliser reset button didn't work. Hence I took it, but with a big discount to cover the cost of service at JLC (since I desperately wanted the watch, and these movements are rare). The service cost was fairly high (as in the cost of a new Sinn) because nobody in the UK JLC Service Centre was qualified to disassemble or reassemble the Calibre 859 and only a few of the Master Watchmakers in Switzerland could do the job. I had to wait ages as a result, but I have a perfect and now-guaranteed watch at the end of the story.
Even if the counterfeiter had a lucky day and found a bag of NOS Calibre 859 movements in a bag swiped from a JLC service centre (impossible, but let's run with it), I just can't see any of the Chinese 'assemblers' being able to assemble the watch.
I haven't picked the most extreme example (like the Reverso Gyrotourbillon 2 or the Gyrotourbillon 1, or the Reverso grande complication à triptyque), I've merely picked the one I own, which cost me less than my Tudor. Perhaps you're talking about the Master Compressor range of watches, and I'm sure you're right. But if the 'Frankie' has a genuine JLC movement inside, then as long as it's not stolen, then it's starting to become less 'fake' in my eyes, and more 'rebodied'. Like a cheap version of Pininfarina rebodying a Ferrari. The movement is the heart and soul of the watch, and that's why replicas can be so close to the genuines when the genuines use readily available movements.
A fake Patek perpetual calendar that accomplishes its 'super-accurate 1:1 replica' status by means of using a genuine Patek perpetual calendar movement inside, to me, isn't really a fake any more.
Anyone else agree with me here? A few agree that, say, a birth-year Tudor Sub with a fake but better-quality Oyster bracelet would still be a Tudor Sub. I'd say a fake JLC with a genuine movement is enough to still be a JLC. Especially for high horology, the movement is everything.
Sorry to go on so long, long week, a few drinks, and the interesting concept of whether a counterfeiter with a *genuine* Calibre 859 in his hand, and his CNC mill at the ready, would result in something to be dismissed as 'fake', or something to be celebrated as the movement surely deserves...
Cyber
Most of the frankies i have seen are "b
ds" made up with either all genuine parts but from different watches etc . So technically not "genuine" These are the real concerns as the really can fool people.
Early this year i took a look at a JLC "Master memovox" It was too good to be true ! The strap was real the case was 1:1. The quality of the face was perfect to the point of been crazy. But i know it was not genuine. The alarm was probably the give away, but you would have to know the real sound to know !!
The best JLC fakes are the simple complications !!
Fakes are fakes.. Love them or hate them.
But Frankies are getting dangerous now. I question what happens to them ? I know one S/H watch dealer that was stung 3 times last year . You have to so on the ball its mad.
The best fake i have owned (sold for 400% profit !) was a Vacheron That i wish i had never sold. I bought it in Bk (Not the usual places there) when i asked for more the guy said he could not find any more of that "Batch" When buying a Omega for my wife in Selfridges one of the guys looked at it and was shocked when after 30 mins o told him it was a fake. I miss that watch so much !
Most of the frankies i have seen are "b
ds" made up with either all genuine parts but from different watches etc . So technically not "genuine" These are the real concerns as the really can fool people.Early this year i took a look at a JLC "Master memovox" It was too good to be true ! The strap was real the case was 1:1. The quality of the face was perfect to the point of been crazy. But i know it was not genuine. The alarm was probably the give away, but you would have to know the real sound to know !!
The best JLC fakes are the simple complications !!
Fakes are fakes.. Love them or hate them.
But Frankies are getting dangerous now. I question what happens to them ? I know one S/H watch dealer that was stung 3 times last year . You have to so on the ball its mad.
The best fake i have owned (sold for 400% profit !) was a Vacheron That i wish i had never sold. I bought it in Bk (Not the usual places there) when i asked for more the guy said he could not find any more of that "Batch" When buying a Omega for my wife in Selfridges one of the guys looked at it and was shocked when after 30 mins o told him it was a fake. I miss that watch so much !
superkartracer said:
Any images of these watches of yours?
My Collection now isI x Omega "UPO" with a few real mods.
1. Anonimo Militare
1. IWC 3717 with huge amounts of real mods.
Cut back big time . Use to have about 30 ! Enjoyed them all and made a nice earner from all of them. Not a Rolex fan
Might get a Tudor Hydro as i have heard interesting reports of one version that is meant to be Amazing !
superkartracer said:
Any images of these watches of yours?
My Collection now isI x Omega "UPO" with a few real mods.
1. Anonimo Militare
1. IWC 3717 with huge amounts of real mods.
Cut back big time . Use to have about 30 ! Enjoyed them all and made a nice earner from all of them. Not a Rolex fan
Might get a Tudor Hydro as i have heard interesting reports of one version that is meant to be Amazing !
Interesting thread.
el stovey said:
Would people drive exact ferrari/bentley copies with "alpha" on the nose? No? Thought not. But they look just as good, only fools pay for the real thing it's all marketing don't you know?
The answer to this, for me, is yes I would! I have no interest in a MR2 'replica', but if someone built a 458 copy that was identical in every way (i.e. same worky bits) apart from the ferrari logos but cost 20 grand instead of 200 I'd buy one tomorrow. IMO it'd be crazy not to.Edited by hairykrishna on Saturday 21st August 15:47
hairykrishna said:
Interesting thread.
+1el stovey said:
Would people drive exact ferrari/bentley copies with "alpha" on the nose? No? Thought not. But they look just as good, only fools pay for the real thing it's all marketing don't you know?
The answer to this, for me, is yes I would! I have no interest in a MR2 'replica', but if someone built a 458 copy that was identical in every way (i.e. same worky bits) apart from the ferrari logos but cost 20 grand instead of 200 I'd buy one tomorrow. IMO it'd be crazy not to.Edited by hairykrishna on Saturday 21st August 15:47
It makes me wonder sometimes.
I was in a top end jeweller this afternoon buying my watch, and invariably (after the AD fed the missus champagne) the conversation got onto her watch desires.
I'm no expert on either of these watches, but I know the 'brands'
First off, Rolex. Nice watch, Stainless, and stainless bracelet, 31mm, fluted bezel,oyster face with diamond markers....all for £6.3k
Next
Patek Philippe. I know sod all about this watch. It was very nice though, the bracelet was pure class, diamonds either side. I just got the collection supplement and its reference is 4910/10A.....all for £7.3k
Now, I can appreciate limited edition watches being expensive....but these two above are quartz watches ffs.
Back home now and the missus has found 'fakes' of both with automatic movements for circa $330 and that's with a 25J ETA movement.
Nice mark up then
I was in a top end jeweller this afternoon buying my watch, and invariably (after the AD fed the missus champagne) the conversation got onto her watch desires.
I'm no expert on either of these watches, but I know the 'brands'
First off, Rolex. Nice watch, Stainless, and stainless bracelet, 31mm, fluted bezel,oyster face with diamond markers....all for £6.3k
Next
Patek Philippe. I know sod all about this watch. It was very nice though, the bracelet was pure class, diamonds either side. I just got the collection supplement and its reference is 4910/10A.....all for £7.3k
Now, I can appreciate limited edition watches being expensive....but these two above are quartz watches ffs.
Back home now and the missus has found 'fakes' of both with automatic movements for circa $330 and that's with a 25J ETA movement.
Nice mark up then
jules_s said:
First off, Rolex. Nice watch, Stainless, and stainless bracelet, 31mm, fluted bezel,oyster face with diamond markers....all for £6.3k
Next
Patek Philippe. I know sod all about this watch. It was very nice though, the bracelet was pure class, diamonds either side. I just got the collection supplement and its reference is 4910/10A.....all for £7.3k
Now, I can appreciate limited edition watches being expensive....but these two above are quartz watches ffs.
Back home now and the missus has found 'fakes' of both with automatic movements for circa $330 and that's with a 25J ETA movement.
Nice mark up then
Are you sure the Rolex genuine was a quartz? Rolex's ladies' steel watches (esp. given the description you gave) have automatic mechanical movements in them.Next
Patek Philippe. I know sod all about this watch. It was very nice though, the bracelet was pure class, diamonds either side. I just got the collection supplement and its reference is 4910/10A.....all for £7.3k
Now, I can appreciate limited edition watches being expensive....but these two above are quartz watches ffs.
Back home now and the missus has found 'fakes' of both with automatic movements for circa $330 and that's with a 25J ETA movement.
Nice mark up then
The Patek you're talking about is the 'Twenty-Four' and it is just steel, and just a £5 quartz module, and yes insultingly overpriced. My girlfriend liked it, but in the end I simply couldn't bring myself to spend that sort of money on a f
king quartz steel watch with a couple of blingy bits. It is very finely finished, I'll give you that. But 'pure class'? It's not hugely different in overall design to the Cartier Tank Francaise that my GF already owned, and that didn't impress me for a quartz at that price.Turned out good in the end because I got her a JLC Reverso Duetto instead, with a proper hand-wind mechanical movement, a *real* watch… and once I explained to her what actually the Patek had inside and what the JLC had, and did the JLC party trick of turning from a sober business watch into a mother-of-pearl dial with diamonds evening watch, she fell in love with the JLC. Now she (rightly) understands what a 'real' watch is… funny that JLC use that exact tag line in their advertising.
Incidentally, unless you search a LOT harder than me, and have access to more specialist fake dealers than I (I'm not a rep guru), I've not seen any Patek Twenty-Four fakes that look anywhere near genuine. Patek may be taking the piss with the Twenty Four but their finishing and detailing is beyond reproach, and the fakes simply don't have that perfection. As to a Patek Twenty-Four fake with a '25J ETA' movement - sorry, that's utter BS. The Twenty Four is only a few mm thick and all the small ladies' Chinese ETA clone movements are thick, as any cheap automatic is likely to be.
The more expensive Rolex ladies' fakes *do* use ETA clone automatics (supposedly ETA 2671, only PTS Resources sell these and it's not clear whether they are imported ETA or Chinese clones) but they are very poorly made, I suppose the market is much smaller and the movements simply aren't anywhere near as reliable as the full-size ETA clones that are used very widely. Even with a full service, the auto rotor doesn't wind the mainspring adequately in even insane daily use (e.g. playing badminton all day) making the extra thickness utterly redundant. You need to wind these things every other day without fail, and the stiffness of the movement gives the game away.
Somehow I think the 'ETA' clone miniature ladies' movements aren't made by the 'premium' Chinese watchmakers like Sea-Gull, because the example I've seen was simply utter crap. It was sold at the same $300-odd price as the gents' Rolex fakes with ETA clones, which, on the other hand, are well known to be very reliable and tough movements (lubricate the auto rotor first though!). I've only got one movement to go on, but if PTS Resources supplied it and it was imported from ETA then it was very badly assembled, otherwise it could just be very poor cloning.
The market isn't anywhere nearly as big for fat automatic ladies watches, other than Rolex. And whilst the steel sports Rolex replicas are worryingly hard to distinguish from the real thing, the fake womens' Rolexes are, as far as I've seen, really really easy tells. Anyone who's seen a few genuine ladies' Rolexes will immediately know.
el stovey said:
Kindersley said:
L
having earned a few pounds from fakes , I tend never to buy ladies watches unless ordered.
What a odd thing to admit to on a public forum.having earned a few pounds from fakes , I tend never to buy ladies watches unless ordered.
If it's from skilfully adding enough genuine bits to a fake to create a 'Frankie' (as he calls them) that fools dealers, enabling him to sell the fake as real…… then I've utterly lost any of the grudging respect I initially had (which is what I presume you're insinuating).
I really hope it's the former, I have no problem with that - as long as the fakes stay within the 'rep geek' community and are sold as fakes, then I can at least understand the mentality behind the enthusiasts who do this.
The latter behaviour is just criminal. I can't believe that he's admitting to that.
El stovey - don't you think your comment is a bit sly? It's a pretty serious claim that someone is a criminal - making insinuations without coming out with what you really think isn't fair IMO.
I think Kindersley needs to clarify how he's making money from fakes because he's mentioned it a couple of times, and if he's just helping out the rep-geek community then that's more or less OK. But virtually any other profit from fakes (selling them, enhancing them and selling them as real, etc.) is criminal and I don't want to be involved with threads with bragging criminals. It could be entirely innocent - most watchmakers refuse to service fakes, but some will, and that's not a crime, for example - or the Frankenwatches he builds may be sold at a profit to people in the replica world who know damn well they're buying a Frankenwatch and are happy with it - again a deal between two people where neither is misrepresented is OK by me.
But it's starting to sound dodgy, and sadly, el stovey, I think your comment has just sounded the death knell for this thread. It was good whilst it lasted, though.
jules_s said:
It makes me wonder sometimes.
I was in a top end jeweller this afternoon buying my watch, and invariably (after the AD fed the missus champagne) the conversation got onto her watch desires.
Slightly off topic - Did you get it from Mallorys in Bath? (is that how you spell it?)I was in a top end jeweller this afternoon buying my watch, and invariably (after the AD fed the missus champagne) the conversation got onto her watch desires.
You seem to be that part of the South West, and that's the only jewellers I've seen selling Panerai watches, and they seem to be the sort of place that would give you champagne!
superkartracer said:
CF, would you mind me copying the *best* bits from your posts and adding to another thread with more focus on the movements, you've took the
time to write some very informative posts and it seems a shame they will be lost in this thread,
Cheers
I wish I had the time to do that… sadly I'm flat out and can't - got a well-deserved holiday (at long last) next Friday and a load of work to get sorted beforehand AND a VAT return...time to write some very informative posts and it seems a shame they will be lost in this thread,
Cheers
cyberface said:
El stovey - don't you think your comment is a bit sly? It's a pretty serious claim that someone is a criminal - making insinuations without coming out with what you really think isn't fair IMO.
I'm not being sly at all. He's admitted to
Kindersley said:
having earned a few pounds from fakes , I tend never to buy ladies watches unless ordered.
A) Making money from fakes and. . . B) Only buying ladies watches when ordered.
He makes money from fakes. He buys ladies watches when ordered and sells them. How's he legally "earning a few pounds from fakes"? By finding them and reporting them to Rolex for a reward? By doing checks on watches for enthusiasts to make sure they are genuine before they buy them? Then to say he never buys ladies watches unless ordered? So he's saying he makes money from fakes legally and then in an unrelated statement that he buys genuine ladies watches to sell? Really?
His statement and others statements suggest he makes money selling or partly making fake watches. As I said, it's a strange thing for someone to admit to, especially on a public forum. A watch forum no less, full of people who like genuine watches.
el stovey said:
cyberface said:
El stovey - don't you think your comment is a bit sly? It's a pretty serious claim that someone is a criminal - making insinuations without coming out with what you really think isn't fair IMO.
I'm not being sly at all. He's admitted to
Kindersley said:
having earned a few pounds from fakes , I tend never to buy ladies watches unless ordered.
A) Making money from fakes and. . . B) Only buying ladies watches when ordered.
He makes money from fakes. He buys ladies watches when ordered and sells them. How's he legally "earning a few pounds from fakes"? By finding them and reporting them to Rolex for a reward? By doing checks on watches for enthusiasts to make sure they are genuine before they buy them? Then to say he never buys ladies watches unless ordered? So he's saying he makes money from fakes legally and then in an unrelated statement that he buys genuine ladies watches to sell? Really?
His statement and others statements suggest he makes money selling or partly making fake watches. As I said, it's a strange thing for someone to admit to, especially on a public forum. A watch forum no less, full of people who like genuine watches.
Just hope he doesn't derail the thread. As you say, it'd be interesting to hear how he *legitimately* makes money from fakes.
Compared with three or so years ago though, when a thread like this would last 2 pages of people slinging insults and accusations that would be fighting talk in real life (go back in the archives to some of Motorrad's comments
Strong views, robustly held, heh. I have no problem with this, BTW), isn't it interesting that we've managed more than 10 pages of civil discussion and technical investigation now?Fakes aren't something to be simply dismissed by lovers of genuine watches any more. The 'fake watch = fake person' BS is a bit like 'just say no, kids' - I think it's important that genuine watch enthusiasts' eyes are open to what is going on, just like I was three years ago but got dogpiled on here.
It *is* important that people realise how much a generic ETA movement in a steel case *really costs* to produce, and how much R&D is involved in making them… it *is* important to realise how close the fakes are when the genuine watch doesn't innovate much (if only to avoid being scammed, especially by the most sophisticated counterfeiters - which Kindersley sounds like having intimate experience of - dealing with 'Frankenwatches' where part of the watch actually *is* genuine). And finally, I've always said that there *is* a silver lining to this dark cloud. More and more of our favourite mid-range watchmakers (not everyone can afford JLC, AP, Patek, VC, GP, Lange, Breguet etc.) are now making their own movements. They are having to. And once each house starts its own tradition (and has their own bespoke 'base' movement to base their watches on) then the counterfeiters are in for a *much* harder time. Back to Chinese movements in the watches, and concomitant easy tells, since making a clone of *each* house movement would be uneconomic (and subject to lawsuits - whereas 'old' movement designs are out of copyright / patent AFAIK).
On top of this, the accuracy of modern fake *mechanical* watches, IMO, has contributed to the resurgence in popularity of a complicated mechanical watch as a desirable accessory. It's a pure luxury but men wearing jewellery is just *not* done by people brought up a certain way. Say 'men wearing jewellery' to me and I get the image of a rapper with a fur coat and 7 big gold chains round his neck, steroid-built arms, tattoos and gemstone-encrusted gold bracelets, rings and BIG watches. However, owning and perhaps wearing something *precious* is human nature - it's socially the norm with females but in old-fashioned British-influenced culture, men wearing diamonds and other displays of wealth are considered vulgar. However a very fine and discreet complicated mechanical watch is NOT seen this way, and the *mechanical* watchmakers are in the lucky position of being able to espouse 'preciousness' with an incredibly intricate and mechanically beautiful 'engine' which appeals more to men anyway. I've probably said before on this forum that a watch is the only 'jewellery' a gentleman should really wear (plain rings can be worn for many reasons, marriage being the most common, and there's a line in my mind drawn between 'jewellery rings' and 'rings'). With radio-regulated quartz watches being the gold standard in timekeeping, if you insist on functionality being the best for its type then any wristwatch you wear must be atomic-radio-quartz. But the only way to have a 'precious' item like this is for the cheap, simple electronic module to be surrounded by something precious. Mechanics that do nothing are pointless, so it's back to precious metals and gemstones. This isn't correct for a gentleman so how does one own something precious that instils that owner satisfaction? Most of you must know the feeling - girls readily admit and express the delight in owning something precious, but the same feeling is there for men too.
The answer is in the mechanical wristwatch. And the 'preciousness' comes from the knowledge that it took someone or a team of people a considerable amount of time, effort and expertise, maybe from secret knowledge passed down over generations of tradition, to build that object for you. If you're like me, the satisfaction is in seeing the little engine - an elegantly designed, miraculously engineered and finely finished movement is a device of utter beauty to me. I'll never afford the best of their type, making mechanical movements have a continuum of 'preciousness' for me and a way to aspire. Others see the beauty in the industrial design of the entire watch and the display of time, the quality of the materials, whether precious metal or cutting-edge materials science. Others desire those engineered for extreme performance, such as the ultra-deep diving watches.
Fakes are showing how the basics can be done very cheaply. To me, the fakes are brilliantly showing *exactly* where that elusive concept of 'preciousness' lies in a wristwatch. Mass-produced Chinese copies, when identical to the real thing, show to me that the real thing is perhaps short of 'preciousness'. Where was that final finishing, the requirement for a master craftsman to make the device work?
The easiest way to make a watch 'precious' is for the movement inside to be designed in-house by a company who have a strong identity, they keep their traditions going and master craftsmen and women put their human touches on the pieces. This is very expensive and only available to the very few. What is great about the counterfeit industry is that the middle-ground that the average chap or lady can realistically aspire to (I'd put the popular Omega and Tag pieces in here) was, over the past decade or so, lost. These middle ground Swiss watches sold on name alone - the internals were mostly ETA (don't flame me on Omega, you all know where I'm coming from) and nobody really knew how cheaply these can be made. People still considered the watches 'special' or 'precious' in some way - I had a quartz steel and fake-gold Tag for my 18th that cost around £300 (my Dad really pushed the boat out, and I'm not joking) but the cost of materials, realistically, was around £8. The TAG badge made all the difference, I thought there was something special inside that only the Swiss watchmakers could make. The counterfeiters have proved that 'badge-engineering' is cheap and some of the Swiss firms were having us on for quite some time. Now they're having to innovate to stay alive.
And with 'special' and genuinely 'precious' movements being built by the middle-ground houses, true genuine 'precious' wristwatches are now within the reach of the average person. You don't have to be able to afford a JLC or Patek now to have something truly precious. Even the Chinese, when not building mass-produced clone movements, are making 'precious' movements that involve master craftsmen finishing each piece off.
I think this is a great thing, and the silver lining I was talking about. Look at Hublot - their biggest selling watch is a bit of a con, being a cheap movement with little 'master craftsman' input in a fashionable case. The counterfeiters have found that they can make an identical copy for $600-$800 - the real thing is what, $10,000 or more? Not sure. But the Hublot ADs have trouble sorting the fakes from the genuine watches. What's happened with the market? Loads of fakes are being sold and the counterfeiters have raised their prices (the normal top price for a counterfeit replica is $350-$400, as above that people start looking at branded genuine watches - of course they'd be better off with the fake since it'd be a proper mechanical movement and not a quartz £10 piece with a $390 brandname, heh). I've never seen fakes selling at $600-$800 but the Hublot Big Bangs are, and doing well. This would be a VERY BAD THING if Hublot was losing sales due to the 'rampant criminal counterfeiting' stealing their sales. Why buy a genuine Big Bang for $10k when an identical replica costs $600? Well the facts are that Hublot are selling more watches than ever before, and the Hublot CEO raised prices last year substantially due to demand outstripping supply. Ask an economist what the hell *that* means.
We all need to be aware of fakes because most of us here don't want them. But I've recognised the good side to the industry for a while. More genuine mechanical watches are being sold, the industry is roaring back to life from mass consolidation and near-death, and more Swiss (and German, and French, American and English - not to mention the Chinese) brands are building their own movements (Seiko always has done, there's no change in Japan…) - and with the mass market being more aware of the *movement* in a wristwatch these days, more of us will be able to own something precious. The counterfeiters are making customers more educated, and with education comes enlightenment.
It's a good time to be a mechanical watch enthusiast, IMO. Lots of good things are happening, lots of innovation, materials science being put to full use. And watches are being created that are pure masterpieces of 'preciousness' that a gentleman can own, wear and admire without being vulgar or tasteless. It's great.
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