Sinn vs IWC (was Replica Watches)

[cyberface]

Bit of a detour here and an interesting topic has started on the Rep thread so I thought I'd branch out here. The similarity of Sinn with IWC was pointed out…

andy_s said:

el stovey said:

Didn't the Sinn boss used to work at IWC?

Indeed -

"In 1994, Helmut Sinn sold the company to Lothar Schmidt, who constructed watches in the Porsche-Design Team in the 1970s and later on was authorized officer of the IWC. Among other things, Schmidt designed watch cases made from titanium for the IWC and after 1990 he was responsible for the rebuilding of the IWC brand A. Lange & Söhne."

The DNA is there for all to see. I have both a Sinn and an IWC (both genuine) and they 'feel' similar

Nowt wrong with that. IWC fine detail - finishing - and especially their bracelets which are splendid - is superior to Sinn's. However, Sinn aren't just a cut-price ETA badge engineer - what I love about Sinn is their focus on innovation and clever lower-cost *enhancements* to the base ETA movements.

Sinn's price bracket will never allow bespoke movements unless they take a Sea-Gull ST16, comprehensively re-work it and call it 'their' calibre (like some Swiss brands do). IWC's price bracket only allows bespoke movements in their top-end pieces, after all. But Sinn *do* make clever alterations to their base ETA movements - low cost but high impact. Stuff like special lubricants that operate at extended temperatures (Arktis), copper sulphate capsules (cheap, don't last forever, but visible and functional), and who can forget Diapal (stupendously, not monstrously overpriced - but I suppose the difference in coefficient of friction between synthetic diamond and synthetic ruby is not a step-change).

So Sinn get my 'cool wall' vote and hence a Sinn is in my collection (and I'm seriously considering swapping it for an Arktis if I can do a swap, mainly because my watch was bought on looks alone - and it IS beautiful - whereas the Arktis not only has all the little enhancements that I laud Sinn for, but also has a beautiful ice-blue dial. So if anyone has an Arktis on bracelet and fancies a 356 II copper-dial on leather deployant AND some cash, contact me. I may ask Neil, he's been good in the past). Whilst I've been umming and ahhing about the number of sports chronos in my collection, I must have a Sinn, purely because I see them as possibly the best value 'tool' watch for *new* prices in the region of £1k (lots of debate there, hehe). And, on topic, I don't think I've seen a replica Sinn. Of course, a rep Sinn would be easy and a base model without 'enhancements' would be impossible to tell from genuine, but it'd be a £300 fake of a £700 genuine, and I don't think there's a market for that.

andy_s & Luke - you're both in the TZ trader / flipper / ear-to-the-ground crew… can I ask a favour, if there's an Arktis for trade or sale then let me know - especially if the seller fancies a copper-dial 356 II (Luke - I know you like that watch… buy it and I'll be able to get the Arktis if I can find one! )

So - nothing to do with replica watches, since there's no market to make fake Sinns. However, I feel that there's something special about Sinn, even though they use ETA, they stay price-competitive but offer interesting modifications that *do* things. Not just 'upgraded' components that you can't really spot unless you are entering chronometer competitions, but nice innovations.

A Sinn will remain in my collection. But I reckon it has to be an Arktis. It's got all the innovations except the Diapal - I guess the temperature range necessitated a lubricated movement using their ultra-high-grade oil, rather than the unlubricated Diapal. And… according to Chronomaster, it's still on sale! I love it.

So someone buy my lovely 356 II so I can put my Sinn habit to bed with a top example for the collection (yeah, I'll end up with a U1 on rubber at some point, but I really shouldn't…)

[ShadownINja]

You can get fake Sinns.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=fake+sinn

Edited by ShadownINja on Saturday 21st August 00:01

[ellroy]

From one of the sites:

''100% Genuine Replica Sinn''

How ironic?

[andy_s]

http://www.watchrecon.com/?query=arktis there's a couple out there at the moment, they do crop up CF, and very nice too.

[Kindersley]

ShadownINja said:

You can get fake Sinns.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=fake+sinn

Edited by ShadownINja on Saturday 21st August 00:01

And its easy to get real faces and date wheels etc .

Sinn value for money are excellent watches and easy to sell

[LukeBird]

cyberface said:

andy_s & Luke - you're both in the TZ trader / flipper / ear-to-the-ground crew… can I ask a favour, if there's an Arktis for trade or sale then let me know - especially if the seller fancies a copper-dial 356 II (Luke - I know you like that watch… buy it and I'll be able to get the Arktis if I can find one! )

I'll keep an eye out on SC for you and let you know if anything comes up.
I want that 356 II... yes, now stop tempting me!

Will have to talk more RE 356, did you get my last email? I asked a couple of questions at the end of it about the 356.

[Stuart]

I love my 856. Wearing it today in fact. I'm giving increasing thought to selling my Stowa to start building a 5513 (and ideally a birth year one) fund, but the Sinn would probably never go since it doesn't owe me more than I think it'd cost me to replace it if I changed my mind after selling it, and because it ticks the "interesting tool watch" box so well.

Question though - the case similarity between Damasko and Sinn is striking. Is there a formal connection?

[ShadownINja]

There was a formal connection. I think Damasko supplied cases to Sinn. Or it might be the other way round. Where's my zimmerframe?

[anonymous-user]

ShadownINja said:

There was a formal connection. I think Damasko supplied cases to Sinn. Or it might be the other way round. Where's my zimmerframe?

They definitely worked together, has it stopped now then? They have quite a few models that are almost the same.

Orfina/Porsche/eterna seem to have been involved in this German watch manufacturer love in also.

[ShadownINja]

Sorry, not sure. I seem to recall that they have stopped and a bit of googling reveals that SUG (Sächsische Uhrentechnologie GmbH), Glashütte/Germany, make the cases... which explains the SUG on the cases by the lugs!

Edited by ShadownINja on Saturday 21st August 21:00

[Stuart]

ShadownINja said:

Sorry, not sure. I seem to recall that they have stopped and a bit of googling reveals that SUG (Sächsische Uhrentechnologie GmbH), Glashütte/Germany, make the cases... which explains the SUG on the cases by the lugs!

Edited by ShadownINja on Saturday 21st August 21:00

Aha - always wondered what that meant.

[andy tims]

Had several IWC's, but lots of Sinns, with the 757 being my favourite



Won't be letting this one go in a hurry.

[HereBeMonsters]

andy tims said:

Had several IWC's, but lots of Sinns, with the 757 being my favourite



Won't be letting this one go in a hurry.

I really, really wanted a 656. Until I saw that. Curse you!

ShadownINja said:

You can get fake Sinns.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=fake+sinn

Oh, cheers.

[andy_s]

I think that Lothar Schmidt has some stake in SUG as well, they make cases for a number of manufacturers including Sinn - it's like Rock Family Trees!

Any excuse:

Used somebody elses pic - I really need to do some better ones....

Edited by andy_s on Sunday 22 August 00:27

[Spice_Weasel]

Early Bell & Ross watches were made by Sinn and carried a Bell & Ross by Sinn logo on the dial. I have some pics from a late 90's collectors book though will need to scan and upload...

[andy_s]

Quinny said:

Also owned this one in the past Big mistake moving it on

How does the 103 UTC Ar Ti Diapal grab you? I think it's brilliant but liked the hideable yellow second hour hand of yours - although I'm sure Sinn could modify if you were desperate;

[Stuart]

I'd really like a 103, but one of these

[andy_s]

Spice_Weasel said:

Early Bell & Ross watches were made by Sinn and carried a Bell & Ross by Sinn logo on the dial. I have some pics from a late 90's collectors book though will need to scan and upload...

There was quite a bit of cross-over, pre-94 I think Guinand, (the company ironically later taken over by Helmut Sinn), supplied cases to Sinn and others. Later, SUG (set up by Fricker and Schmidt) provided cases to other manufacturers, including Sinn. Fricker has been a case-maker for 30 years and set up his case works providing many generic watch cases to multiple small manufacturers such as Kazimon, Kremke, Benarus, Muhle, Dievas, Kobold, Corvus etc. In fact, the Guinand 330m diver is - ironically - I think (?) a Fricker cased watch.
Fricker also made Sinn and Tutima cases (and watches like the PRS2 Dreadnought).

The Bell and Ross connection is one of a purely Sinn watch being logoed / commissioned by B&R.

Look at the Bund style Sinn 144/Orfina/Porsche Design/Heuer L5100 cases/dials, all pretty much the same. Heuer used Sinn to service their Bunds in the 90's too I believe.
Don't even start with the Damasko thing...

It's one big happy family! I think Andy Tims knows a bit more about the 144 style case / Damasco history and how it's entwined with its peers.

(*I may, of course, be talking bks...)


Anyway, enough talk...

The 103 Ti etc etc above does have a display back:



I like the warm matte effect of the titanium:


And here's some more Sinn pron anyway:

[Slagathore]

Ahh, any excuse

I really need to get a black rubber strap from Neil, then I can start wearing the U1 again, as I havent worn it for ages, and the Nato smells a bit now.






I've always liked this one - 203 Jubilee limited edition

[andy tims]

andy_s said:

Look at the Bund style Sinn 144/Orfina/Porsche Design/Heuer L5100 cases/dials, all pretty much the same. Heuer used Sinn to service their Bunds in the 90's too I believe.

It's one big happy family! I think Andy Tims knows a bit more about the 144 style case / Damasco history and how it's entwined with its peers.

My knowledge is not that extensive, but I’ll share what I have found out.
In terms of the Sinn 144, Herr Sinn reverse engineered the Orfina / PD case to make it his own, merely adding the pump pushers. Pretty sure Guinand made the 144 case for Sinn as they made all Sinn watches up to 1994.
The 144 is one many derivative designs that Sinn produced. The 156 from the Heuer Bund. The 157 from the Arctos/Tengler Bunds or Heuer AMI. The 103 Chrono case borrows heavily from early Autavias.
Damasko & Sinn had a joint venture from 1994 to 2002 whereby Konrad Damasko supplied cases for Sinn. This lasted until about 2002 when Sinn started getting their cases predominantly from SUG (SÄCHSISCHE UHREN-TECHNOLOGIE GMBH GLASHÜTTE).
Damasko went its own way.