Red Arrow crashes.
Discussion
jason s4 said:
Surely the pilot is the only one who would know he was in trouble, especially considering how quick it all happened?
Indeed, but he is no longer with us to explain what happened. Hence until the offical report is issued it will be guesswork. And with 100 24-hour news channels to fill, that explains all the guesswork.I love how so called 'experts' come up with all these wierd and wonderful version of what they think happened and I find it pretty sad that people are bickering about what they think went on, someones husband, son, friend and team mate has passed away and that should be remembered. As serving RAF aircrew it is very sad to lose someone from the small community that we are, I didnt know Eggman personally but lots of mates hold him in very very high regard and the aviation world is a lesser place without him.
ditchvisitor said:
I love how so called 'experts' come up with all these wierd and wonderful version of what they think happened
You'd risk a little bet that one of them isn't right, then..?ditchvisitor said:
and I find it pretty sad that people are bickering about what they think went on,
They're not. It's all about one of your own, trying to impose your code of silence on this thread.jason s4 said:
Surely the pilot is the only one who would know he was in trouble, especially considering how quick it all happened?
Not if the mayday was made when the accident had already happened, or it was clear it was happening. If someone had access to a radio tuned to the right channel it was possibly the quickest way to notify the authorities the accident had happened. After all the same could be said about the pilot. Considering how quick it appears the accident happened would he have had time to make a mayday?
As a matter of interest what is the radio position of the Red Arrows? Dont they use a dedicated channel? Is Red One the only one who is contact with ATC etc? In which case would a mayday by Jon Egging have been heard by ATC?
The Reds usually use civillian airband VHF frequencies when displaying. I've often listened to them in the past.
For the record, teh first season they used the Hawk was 1980. Even though the RAF had switched from the Gnat to the Hawk in 1979, the Reds continued to use the Gnat throughout the 1979 season. That year I saw them perform at Greenham Common and Valley.
For the record, teh first season they used the Hawk was 1980. Even though the RAF had switched from the Gnat to the Hawk in 1979, the Reds continued to use the Gnat throughout the 1979 season. That year I saw them perform at Greenham Common and Valley.
Eric Mc said:
That year I saw them perform at Greenham Common and Valley.
If it was the Valley show in September, then you saw the very last Arrows Gnat display.I saw the display at Greenham that year too, and at Abingdon for the Battle of Britain At Home day which I think was the same day as the one at St.Athan. I think they displayed at Abingdon first and then flew to St.Athan, which was the Saturday, and then displayed the Gnat for the last time at Valley the day after on the Sunday.
Was a long time ago, so my memory may have not got that quite right. I remember it was a nice sunny day though at Abingdon.... and there weren't many of those
Valley was sunny too. I have my Kodak snaps somewhere in the loft.
I was still living in Ireland in those days so a trip to Valley involved a car ferry from Dun Laoghaire and then a bus from Holyhead. In 1979 I went with my local spotter's group and we had a coach hired. After spending the Saturday at Valley, we then coached into Shropshire and the West of England travelling around taking in places like Cosford and the Kelsterton College (they had a Supermarine Swift in their car park).
Happy days.
I was still living in Ireland in those days so a trip to Valley involved a car ferry from Dun Laoghaire and then a bus from Holyhead. In 1979 I went with my local spotter's group and we had a coach hired. After spending the Saturday at Valley, we then coached into Shropshire and the West of England travelling around taking in places like Cosford and the Kelsterton College (they had a Supermarine Swift in their car park).
Happy days.
I've been away for the weekend and I almost can't quite believe this thread. I read the first pages with a lump in my throat, it was awful and to be expected. As more news appeared about what had happened and the possibilities therein, it made me wonder what had actually happened. This was a genuine curiosity as something so tragic needs to at least have some kind of understanding.
The following pages of people arguing and caring more about how 'right' or 'wrong' they are on an internet forum is frankly awful. Obviously one lot are 'right' and one 'wrong' but FFS have some decorum, it's horrible.
The following pages of people arguing and caring more about how 'right' or 'wrong' they are on an internet forum is frankly awful. Obviously one lot are 'right' and one 'wrong' but FFS have some decorum, it's horrible.
moleamol said:
I've been away for the weekend and I almost can't quite believe this thread. I read the first pages with a lump in my throat, it was awful and to be expected. As more news appeared about what had happened and the possibilities therein, it made me wonder what had actually happened. This was a genuine curiosity as something so tragic needs to at least have some kind of understanding.
The following pages of people arguing and caring more about how 'right' or 'wrong' they are on an internet forum is frankly awful. Obviously one lot are 'right' and one 'wrong' but FFS have some decorum, it's horrible.
You put that so much better than I did, well done. The following pages of people arguing and caring more about how 'right' or 'wrong' they are on an internet forum is frankly awful. Obviously one lot are 'right' and one 'wrong' but FFS have some decorum, it's horrible.
moleamol said:
The following pages of people arguing and caring more about how 'right' or 'wrong' they are on an internet forum is frankly awful. Obviously one lot are 'right' and one 'wrong' but FFS have some decorum, it's horrible.
I am sorry, I just don't get this line of thought.Nobody on this thread intends anything other than praise and best wishes for the Pilot and his family.
What everyone needs to realise is that this is an internet forum, you could change the subject matter and you could change the site the thread is on but it will always follow the same path of argument, disagreement, b
hing and speculation.You will never ever change that, it is human nature.
If you don't like it then just don't read it.....
BB
Why are people so upset about discussing this issue?
I think there is a level of self appointed guardianship of sensitivities which, frankly, I do not think anyone here has the right to assume.
If some other unfortunate pilot had met his demise in a similar fashion, I would bet the Flt Lt Egging would be discussing and debating the possible causes as we speak.
I honestly do not think anyone on here has been disrespectful or insulting in any way to his memory.
I think there is a level of self appointed guardianship of sensitivities which, frankly, I do not think anyone here has the right to assume.
If some other unfortunate pilot had met his demise in a similar fashion, I would bet the Flt Lt Egging would be discussing and debating the possible causes as we speak.
I honestly do not think anyone on here has been disrespectful or insulting in any way to his memory.
Eric Mc said:
Why are people so upset about discussing this issue?
I think there is a level of self appointed guardianship of sensitivities which, frankly, I do not think anyone here has the right to assume.
This. A train crashes at Potters Bar and people (pretty much everyone as I recall) speculated about the cause. They were still respectful of the victims. I think there is a level of self appointed guardianship of sensitivities which, frankly, I do not think anyone here has the right to assume.
There's nothing wrong with people discussing possible causes. As I see it, even official AAIB reports can be proven wrong through discussion and further scrutiny, Mull of Kintyre and G-STYX to name but two...
There's only one person who knew the true cause here and, sadly, he's no longer with us...
There's only one person who knew the true cause here and, sadly, he's no longer with us...
I think that sensible, and "well judged" speculation is a good thing. Discussion is a very important tool in the process of understanding, and for those directly involved in any tragedy to help the (mental)healing process. We as human beings use discusion to help us find and resolve our own views on any particular issue. We do not need to have the absolute facts in such a process, but we must use common sense and decency to decide if the discusion we are having is appropriate to the time period. The fact that people want to speculate and discuss such issues shows they are interested in the events that have taken place. The biggest tragedy imo would be for someone to die and people to say "oh well, whats for dinner" etc !!
What is NOT so nice, again imo, is when people try to score "cheap points" off one another on internet forums etc. Because written communication only conveys 10% of the meanings that interpersonnal communication does, people can easily read things into another persons words that maybe were never meant in that fashion etc. I hope that people will continue to discuss this event for some time, but that we should be a lot more tollerant of other peoples opinions, and if they might be "wrong" then to resist the temptation to jump on them and try to squash them because of that.
You don't need to be an expert aviator to have an opinion on what causes an air accident, if you are then great, and if/when people suggest things that are unlikely to have occured (note the "unlikely", as nothing is immpossible!) then please use your greater knowledge to politely and accurately point out why what they said might be unlikely, but don't jump down their throat, ranting and raving and calling them an idiot etc. Being "wrong" is a normal state, generally, many many more people will be wrong than right for any given situation!
(My condolences go out to the family and friends of Flight Lieutenant Jon Egging, your composure and restraint at such a difficult time is an inspiration for all of us, and a great example of the calm profesionalism of the service men and women of the UK's armed forces. The world would be a very much duller place if people with a passion and drive to push their limits were prevented from doing so by a society intollerant of any risk
)
What is NOT so nice, again imo, is when people try to score "cheap points" off one another on internet forums etc. Because written communication only conveys 10% of the meanings that interpersonnal communication does, people can easily read things into another persons words that maybe were never meant in that fashion etc. I hope that people will continue to discuss this event for some time, but that we should be a lot more tollerant of other peoples opinions, and if they might be "wrong" then to resist the temptation to jump on them and try to squash them because of that.
You don't need to be an expert aviator to have an opinion on what causes an air accident, if you are then great, and if/when people suggest things that are unlikely to have occured (note the "unlikely", as nothing is immpossible!) then please use your greater knowledge to politely and accurately point out why what they said might be unlikely, but don't jump down their throat, ranting and raving and calling them an idiot etc. Being "wrong" is a normal state, generally, many many more people will be wrong than right for any given situation!
(My condolences go out to the family and friends of Flight Lieutenant Jon Egging, your composure and restraint at such a difficult time is an inspiration for all of us, and a great example of the calm profesionalism of the service men and women of the UK's armed forces. The world would be a very much duller place if people with a passion and drive to push their limits were prevented from doing so by a society intollerant of any risk
) Asterix said:
Question - would the Reds have an 'open mic' policy while performing or would it just been the top bloke?
They allow the team leader's instructions to be relayed through the PA system. It is actually very good for the drama of the routine and is a very popular part of the display. I'm pretty sure the basic rule in the Red Arrows is that, except in major emergencies (such as Saturday's) only the Team Leader should talk.The drama of the Team Leader shouting "Smoke on - Go" is palpable.
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