Red Arrow crashes.

[dr_gn]

just1 said:

Just been to the crash site and walked the down from the first impact point to the river. Quite sobering, and the distance he covered is astounding.

I asked the question earlier it the thread, at what point would the pilot usually kill the engine in a forced landing like this? I also thought it would be unusual for the aircraft to travel so far after initial impact *unless* the engine was still under power. If this was the case it would seem to give more evidence that the pilot was incapacitated, unable to eject, and wasn't in fact in control of the aircraft at all.

[anonymous-user]

Generally you only attempt a landing like that due to a major failure with either the propulsion system or the flight controls. Anything else and you would try to fly with it for a bit. If the engine has already failed, then you will have pulled the fire handles before you got near the ground (asuming sufficient preperation time obviously) and for a flight control failure you persumably would use the most appropriate thrust setting (depending on the trim and availible working aero surfaces). In either case, the final touchdown would be attempted at a speed as close to stalling as you think you can get away with (within the remit of keeping AOA in a sensible zone). I have no idea of the L/D ratio for a Hawk, but for a lot of modern commercial airframes you practically have to fly them down on the r/w as they have such low drag and good lift co-efficients (especially when within ground effect). i.e you will have been at flight idle thrust for absolutely ages during the descent, only really throttling up as the flap and u/c drag increases on final approach.


During a "crash" landing, the distance the debris travels has i suspect more to do with the trajectory and velocity of the plane before impact, and the nature of the terrain that it impacts. The video of this unfortunate accident shows the aircraft to be travelling fairly fast and in a slow descent (small angle to the ground), so i can immagine a "skip and bounce" kind of "landing" ;-(

I can't see the engine running and producing meaningful thrust after the first heavy vertical impact, as i suspect the bearing system would be unable to support the rotor assy, leading to blades hitting stators and probably massive compressor surge followed by a flame out soon afterwards?

[mrloudly]

As Hoover always said "Fly it as far into the crash as possible"

[OneDs]

3, 2, 3 & 2 arrows just flown overhead in Wimborne. Good luck and best wishes.

Edited by OneDs on Saturday 27th August 12:29

[Loopyleesa]

OneDs said:

3, 2, 3 & 2 arrows just flown overhead in Wimborne. Good luck and best wishes.

Edited by OneDs on Saturday 27th August 12:29

I saw them fly over earlier, must of been very hard for them

[Silver940]

Saw them over wimborne earlier too, unpleasant flight for them I imagine, good to see them airborne again though!

[sebhaque]

Chaps

Just perusing some of the articles in here - working at Rolls and having worked on the Adour project, this struck home particularly hard. I remember meeting the pilots (Jon included) when they gave a little spiel in the office.

Forgive my ignorance, but looking through some of the fots on the DM article, I noticed that there's a black Hawk with the Arrows - is this the "missing man" aircraft? Although there are 9 Arrows in the shots.

[anonymous-user]

It's a spare aircraft on loan from apparently RAF Valley, although it wears 100 sqn markings.

It was also at Fairford last month as a spare and took part as Red 1 at Cromer airshow the other week.

[bleesh]

Top marks to the crowd at Wings And Wheels at Dunsfold today.
At 11:59 a poem was read over the tannoy and at midday we held a minute's silence in memory of Flt Lt. Jon Egging - immaculately observed by all.

Very moving, and followed by an excellent days flying and driving to remind us why we go to these events.

[Mutley]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I was once told that the Reds have 10 aircraft for use, all marked up and "on station", the 10th being a reserve craft.

There are 9 Reds ans one black Valley Hawk in the images, the black would be the solo display arcraft.

[Silver940]

Mutley said:

I was once told that the Reds have 10 aircraft for use, all marked up and "on station", the 10th being a reserve craft.

True, had to opportunity to get up close with them at Bournemouth a few years back and was shown around the 10th aircraft by one of the blues.

[paulrussell]

Mutley said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I was once told that the Reds have 10 aircraft for use, all marked up and "on station", the 10th being a reserve craft.

There are 9 Reds ans one black Valley Hawk in the images, the black would be the solo display arcraft.

It actually is one of thier spare craft. As it's on loan to them, they haven't painted it red. The Hawk that does solo display's isn't part of the Red Arrows, so it wouldn't be with the Red Arrows. The solo display Hawk has got a different livery aswell.

[anonymous-user]

It states on the Red Arrows site one is on loan from Valley. I imagine they may have a shortage of Red jets at the moment. I believe the jet is XX284. As said the solo one is in a different scheme, and the spare solo aircraft is usually a normsl black 208 sqn jet. Not sure if they have 2 special ones this year.

The spare black Red Arrows jet, although on loan from RAF Valley, actually carries 100 squadron markings, which are based at Leeming.

[Simpo Two]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

The black red one comes from Valley at Leeming. Righty-dokey skip!

[Prawo Jazdy]

Mutley said:

I was once told that the Reds have 10 aircraft for use, all marked up and "on station", the 10th being a reserve craft.

I'm think i've seen 11 'Reds' parked up (well, I mean I saw two left on the flight line after nine departed - i'm not Rain Man). Their manager has a marked up aircraft that he flies with the callsign 'Red 10', so maybe they have a spare one on top of that. Maybe I had an attack of The Stupid though.

[anonymous-user]

This was the status at the beginning of the year. Don't forget in this list XX260 is now out of action and was at Blackpool following a bird strike. It has now been removed by low loader in the last few days.

I believe it was XX179 that crashed at Bournemouth, the pilots don't always fly the same aircraft.

XX284 is the black 'spare' Hawk.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/reds/behindthescenes/hawkair...

[ninja-lewis]

Prawo Jazdy said:

I'm think i've seen 11 'Reds' parked up (well, I mean I saw two left on the flight line after nine departed - i'm not Rain Man). Their manager has a marked up aircraft that he flies with the callsign 'Red 10', so maybe they have a spare one on top of that. Maybe I had an attack of The Stupid though.

They've had 11 at Leuchars in the past.

[sebhaque]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Thanks for clearing that up.

[Chrisgr31]

Prawo Jazdy said:

I'm think i've seen 11 'Reds' parked up (well, I mean I saw two left on the flight line after nine departed - i'm not Rain Man). Their manager has a marked up aircraft that he flies with the callsign 'Red 10', so maybe they have a spare one on top of that. Maybe I had an attack of The Stupid though.

Well certainly the Commander who is the guy who often does the commentary on the ground stated at Eastborne that he was due to get in a helicopter at Eastbourne once the display was finished and fly to Manston where he'd meet the other Red Arrows. He was then going to fly Red 10 with them over to Bristol where they were doing a show at the Ballon Festival.

[bleesh]

The Reds had 11 at Farnborough 2008 as well - count the nose lights on this picture - all 11 rolling down the runway at the same time

Edited by bleesh on Monday 29th August 22:40