Discussion
I have just discovered that one of these lies under a farm field a couple of miles from here. It was apparently brought down by a Defiant.
This was the only aircraft brought down in the area and nobody knows anything about it locally. I've dug around a little on the internet and all of the crew parachuted to safety. The pilot of the Defiant also survived the war.
I think it's a bit of a shame that what must have been a dramatic action has been completely forgotten.
This was the only aircraft brought down in the area and nobody knows anything about it locally. I've dug around a little on the internet and all of the crew parachuted to safety. The pilot of the Defiant also survived the war.
I think it's a bit of a shame that what must have been a dramatic action has been completely forgotten.
There were thousands of such incidents all over the UK. And it hasn't been COMPLETELY forgotten - you've been able to find out some information on the incident for a start.
The way to get it back into the knowledge of the modern public is to, perhaps, organise a campaign for a memorial plaque. But, in the end, no one died in this particular event so what is there to memorialise?
The way to get it back into the knowledge of the modern public is to, perhaps, organise a campaign for a memorial plaque. But, in the end, no one died in this particular event so what is there to memorialise?
Eric Mc said:
There were thousands of such incidents all over the UK. And it hasn't been COMPLETELY forgotten - you've been able to find out some information on the incident for a start.
The way to get it back into the knowledge of the modern public is to, perhaps, organise a campaign for a memorial plaque. But, in the end, no one died in this particular event so what is there to memorialise?
There were thousands of such events indeed but this was the only one in this area. It had been attacking Manchester and was hit on it's way home.The way to get it back into the knowledge of the modern public is to, perhaps, organise a campaign for a memorial plaque. But, in the end, no one died in this particular event so what is there to memorialise?
I've had to look into the history of this area during the second world war recently (there is a good local history group) but nobody could shed much light on this event. I agree there's nothing to commemorate but it's of great interest to me and I suspect others. We're near Woodford here (which assembled Lancasters) and there's a bit of interest in aviation. It brought home the reality of the impact of the war to me when I found out about it and I think it would be useful in, for example, school history lessons as an illustration of the scope of the war.
By coincidence I got talking to an elderly couple in a cafe whilst out cycling locally yesterday and the old boy had been a Lancaster pilot.
Because of the low key level of the incident, it obviously didn't ellicit much notoriety at the time. Amongst those who are interested in such things, such as dedicated aviation archeologists, I am sure the details will be kept on record so it won't be "forgotten" as such. Obviously, as time goes on, those alive who might have remembered the incident will die off so it stops being part of the collective folk memory.
One way to revive an old local story such as this is to have an article written in the local paper - perhaps around one of the anniversary dates.
Is there a local community website for the area? Getting an article placed on such a website - with photos if possible - might be another way of reawakening local interest.
Has the site been dug by archeologists at any time in the past 30 years or so?
For people who build models, such incidents can be the inspiration for a diorama display, such as this one by modeller Brian Boot of the Farnborough IPMS -
One way to revive an old local story such as this is to have an article written in the local paper - perhaps around one of the anniversary dates.
Is there a local community website for the area? Getting an article placed on such a website - with photos if possible - might be another way of reawakening local interest.
Has the site been dug by archeologists at any time in the past 30 years or so?
For people who build models, such incidents can be the inspiration for a diorama display, such as this one by modeller Brian Boot of the Farnborough IPMS -
Edited by Eric Mc on Monday 3rd October 12:23
Eric Mc said:
Has the site been dug by archeologists at any time in the past 30 years or so?
Apparently the MOD (?) attempted to excavate the site 21 years ago but abandoned the effort after six weeks. The farmer is not happy about people visiting the site.I wonder if any of the crew members are still alive.
Good point about the website.
Edited to add: I've just seen the model, it wouldn't have been in that condition when it hit, the explosion was felt for miles around.
It's difficult to sift fact from false memories though, in my recent research I was talking to a lady who's mother used to tell a story about a fighter pulling a victory roll low over the village and she seemed to believe it was the Defiant that downed the He111. I think it is most unlikely as it would have been pitch dark.
Edited by mattviatura on Monday 3rd October 12:31
Eric Mc said:
Excellent.
See, it's not really forgotten.
Eric you've missed my point. It isn't forgotten for people with a specific interest in aviation, but talk to people locally (even the village local history society) and nobody has the first clue.See, it's not really forgotten.
I'm not sure if I'm in a minority of one here but something like this would've electrified a boring history lesson for me and might have made me listen a bit harder. It makes history real.
mattviatura said:
Eric Mc said:
Excellent.
See, it's not really forgotten.
Eric you've missed my point. It isn't forgotten for people with a specific interest in aviation, but talk to people locally (even the village local history society) and nobody has the first clue.See, it's not really forgotten.
I'm not sure if I'm in a minority of one here but something like this would've electrified a boring history lesson for me and might have made me listen a bit harder. It makes history real.
But in the big scheme of things, it wasn't a terribly out of the norm incident in WW2 so would not have been "remembered" to any great extent.
History teachers in school don't have much time to do their own research into local history - especially if they are being railroaded into reaching "relevant" PC history such as how nasty the slave trade was or how the British Empire was an evil and nasty institution that brought no benefits to the world.
As I pointed out earlier, if you want the locals to be more aware of local incidents from the past, maybe it is YOU who will have to make the effort to bring it back to a more general audience.
Eric Mc said:
History teachers in school don't have much time to do their own research into local history - especially if they are being railroaded into reaching "relevant" PC history such as how nasty the slave trade was or how the British Empire was an evil and nasty institution that brought no benefits to the world.
Sadly I concur.I mean it's not as though the consequences of world war two are having any effect on what happens on the news today is it? Much.
Wrong forum for that debate but you're absolutely right.
mattviatura said:
I have just discovered that one of these lies under a farm field a couple of miles from here. It was apparently brought down by a Defiant.
This was the only aircraft brought down in the area and nobody knows anything about it locally. I've dug around a little on the internet and all of the crew parachuted to safety. The pilot of the Defiant also survived the war.
I think it's a bit of a shame that what must have been a dramatic action has been completely forgotten.
In general I think it's fair to say that the more wreckage that remains, the more the incident will be 'remembered', and vice versa. Unfortunately irrespective of loss of life. Unsurprisingly, a featureless field is soon forgotten, but load of twisted metal on a hillside has a much greater effect on passing ramblers.This was the only aircraft brought down in the area and nobody knows anything about it locally. I've dug around a little on the internet and all of the crew parachuted to safety. The pilot of the Defiant also survived the war.
I think it's a bit of a shame that what must have been a dramatic action has been completely forgotten.
Do you have "Peakland Air Crashes" by Pat Cunningham? This is the best researched series of books on the subject I've come across.
Just a cheeky thread hijack, I posted this looking for info last year - not sure if it's a 111 shot down over Manchester/Sheffield or not:
dr_gn said:
Guys,
Further to my research into the Bf109E-4 "White 5", I put a request for information on the Sheffield History Forum, and got some great pictures from "MikeD", including this one of a Heinkel He-111 H-1 (I think):
We have no idea where the aircraft in the photo is located, or any other information about it. Does anyone here recognise it, or know of a possible unit? I can just about make out a "7" behind the cross (possibly in red), and of course the light coloured spinners. Apart from the general camo scheme I can't see any other distinguishing features. The triangle on the side is just to indicate the type of fuel used, and is common to many Luftwaffe aircraft (in this case, the number "87" means 87 octane B4 aviation gasoline). VDM is the propeller manufacturer. It looks like the prop wasn't turning when it crashed. The size of the tent makes me think the stbd. wing is also in place.
FWIW. "MikeD" said the photographs(postcards) of the bf109 and The Heinkel were together, and look like the same paper, age etc. Quite a few people remember the Bf109 being in Sheffield (including my Dad and one of his pals), but nobody remembers the Heinkel.
Over to you.
Cheers.
Further to my research into the Bf109E-4 "White 5", I put a request for information on the Sheffield History Forum, and got some great pictures from "MikeD", including this one of a Heinkel He-111 H-1 (I think):
We have no idea where the aircraft in the photo is located, or any other information about it. Does anyone here recognise it, or know of a possible unit? I can just about make out a "7" behind the cross (possibly in red), and of course the light coloured spinners. Apart from the general camo scheme I can't see any other distinguishing features. The triangle on the side is just to indicate the type of fuel used, and is common to many Luftwaffe aircraft (in this case, the number "87" means 87 octane B4 aviation gasoline). VDM is the propeller manufacturer. It looks like the prop wasn't turning when it crashed. The size of the tent makes me think the stbd. wing is also in place.
FWIW. "MikeD" said the photographs(postcards) of the bf109 and The Heinkel were together, and look like the same paper, age etc. Quite a few people remember the Bf109 being in Sheffield (including my Dad and one of his pals), but nobody remembers the Heinkel.
Over to you.
Cheers.
dr_gn said:
Do you have "Peakland Air Crashes" by Pat Cunningham? This is the best researched series of books on the subject I've come across.
No but I've just won a bookshop voucher so I'll see if I can turn it up, although this isn't quite the Peak area as such.Have you made one of these?
mattviatura said:
dr_gn said:
Do you have "Peakland Air Crashes" by Pat Cunningham? This is the best researched series of books on the subject I've come across.
No but I've just won a bookshop voucher so I'll see if I can turn it up, although this isn't quite the Peak area as such.Have you made one of these?
I built a Heinkel 111 many many years ago, no long gone!
Eric Mc said:
It's hard to segregate the teaching of history in schools from the agendas that our political masters would like us to follow - or those aspects of our history they would prefer us to forget.
Too true unfortunately.I had the pleasure of being taught history in school as recently as 2007.
Was not allowed to study WW1 and WW2 from the English perspective,
But the germans... really annoyed me. "modern history"
They drilled into us the history of Europe and how good it is though.
And how evil and nasty the British Empire was ...
Streps said:
Eric Mc said:
It's hard to segregate the teaching of history in schools from the agendas that our political masters would like us to follow - or those aspects of our history they would prefer us to forget.
Too true unfortunately.I had the pleasure of being taught history in school as recently as 2007.
Was not allowed to study WW1 and WW2 from the English perspective,
But the germans... really annoyed me. "modern history"
They drilled into us the history of Europe and how good it is though.
And how evil and nasty the British Empire was ...
mattviatura said:
What a fascinating website! I live close to the western edge of the Peak District and had no idea that there were so many military crash sites so close.
Cheers for the link, OP!
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