787 How long until a major incident/crash???
Discussion
Just wondering what people's thoughts are on the new Boeing 787 as it nears introduction to service and likely reliablility/issues.
Given that Boeing appear to have pushed the boundaries of construction (both materials and supply chain/manufacturing processes) history would suggest there are likely to be some significant issues encountered before it has bedded in as a mature platform.
In particular the all carbon construction has be worried as repair procedures are likely to be more robust/less proven than for metal skinned aircraft. Up until know carbon construction has been limited to tailplanes/fins or specialist applications. An airliner that needs to be a work-horse with constant exposure to service trucks and busy airport environments is going to have a lot more dings and fender-bend incidents. How will the carbon stand up to this???
What do people think??
Given that Boeing appear to have pushed the boundaries of construction (both materials and supply chain/manufacturing processes) history would suggest there are likely to be some significant issues encountered before it has bedded in as a mature platform.
In particular the all carbon construction has be worried as repair procedures are likely to be more robust/less proven than for metal skinned aircraft. Up until know carbon construction has been limited to tailplanes/fins or specialist applications. An airliner that needs to be a work-horse with constant exposure to service trucks and busy airport environments is going to have a lot more dings and fender-bend incidents. How will the carbon stand up to this???
What do people think??
I remember reading something a few years ago about the worry of lightning strikes.
Something along the lines of; with aluminium Aircraft when stuck the lightning hits and flows around the body/wing/tail and finds shortest path to earth. Commercial aircraft get hit quite often.
The Dreamliner is mainly composite & when hit their was a chance of it blowing off the part it stuck before it found its way to earth it was something along those lines.
Saying that aluminium aircraft that are hit will have a small point that will be case hardened in a strike.
I'm sure all that has been ironed out by now.
Edit to add, Maybe I saw it on a Discovery Channel Program
Something along the lines of; with aluminium Aircraft when stuck the lightning hits and flows around the body/wing/tail and finds shortest path to earth. Commercial aircraft get hit quite often.
The Dreamliner is mainly composite & when hit their was a chance of it blowing off the part it stuck before it found its way to earth it was something along those lines.
Saying that aluminium aircraft that are hit will have a small point that will be case hardened in a strike.
I'm sure all that has been ironed out by now.
Edit to add, Maybe I saw it on a Discovery Channel Program
Edited by 69 coupe on Tuesday 4th October 18:03
AIUI the 787 has inert gas protection for the fuel tanks which will help a lot. Plus this isn't the 40s when people designed planes the way they did because they looked good. Millions of hours of computer structural analysis will have gone into this plane, and it'll likely be a lot stronger than airliners that have gone before it.
Article about lightning strikes from circa 2006.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstech...
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstech...
c7xlg said:
Just wondering what people's thoughts are on the new Boeing 787 as it nears introduction to service and likely reliablility/issues.
Given that Boeing appear to have pushed the boundaries of construction (both materials and supply chain/manufacturing processes) history would suggest there are likely to be some significant issues encountered before it has bedded in as a mature platform.
In particular the all carbon construction has be worried as repair procedures are likely to be more robust/less proven than for metal skinned aircraft. Up until know carbon construction has been limited to tailplanes/fins or specialist applications. An airliner that needs to be a work-horse with constant exposure to service trucks and busy airport environments is going to have a lot more dings and fender-bend incidents. How will the carbon stand up to this???
What do people think??
They shouldn't blow apart from metal fatigue or rot through under the galleys after a few years like a normal aluminium airliner can.Given that Boeing appear to have pushed the boundaries of construction (both materials and supply chain/manufacturing processes) history would suggest there are likely to be some significant issues encountered before it has bedded in as a mature platform.
In particular the all carbon construction has be worried as repair procedures are likely to be more robust/less proven than for metal skinned aircraft. Up until know carbon construction has been limited to tailplanes/fins or specialist applications. An airliner that needs to be a work-horse with constant exposure to service trucks and busy airport environments is going to have a lot more dings and fender-bend incidents. How will the carbon stand up to this???
What do people think??
They've strengthened the structure to take account of in service dings in all the usual places catering truck and baggage loaders like to hit. Any dings can be repaired in exactly the same manner as an aluminium aircraft would be with permanent patch repairs. They're also offering composite repairs on large scales without the need for an autoclave although these do require longer downtimes.
The A380 has been flying for a few years now and it has large sections of fuselage made out of composite materials.
I can't see it being a problem, lightning strike protection is already in place for the large number of composite panels and structures on airliners in service so that too is not an issue.
If it follows the safety record of the 777 there is nothing to worry about.
.It will be a fantastic aircraft, have no doubt, I can't wait to get a job working on them! Modern composites are seriously tough, the lightning issue is delt with by bonding aluminium wire cages into the layers, and connecting the aircraft so that there is no potential difference across any of the structure. It would not even make construction, let alone certification without being nigh on perfect.
Many years ago (probably in an article about the McLaren F1) I read that most supercar manufacturers were still reluctant to use all-composite construction as they believed that there was no proof that carbon fibre would maintain its structural integrity over the long-term and that the layers could gradually de-laminate when exposed to moisture and extremes of temperature. Given that airliners cruise in temperatures below -50C, but land in places as hot as +40C, and encounter all extremes of weather in among, what will the long-term effect be on the 787? I’m sure Boeing have thought about it, but I’d be interested to see the views of anyone here who understands carbon/composite technology such that they can offer an informed insight.
There was an S-76 crashed of the coast of England a few years back killing everyone on board. The root-cause was found to have been a much earlier lightning strike to one of the composite blades. The blade had been removed, inspected and returned to service with no damage identifiable from the strike.
kinda makes you think about composite bodied aircraft...
kinda makes you think about composite bodied aircraft...
Eric, concorde in it's entire operating life with AF and BA probably racked up less hours than the 787 fleet will in its first 18-24months of operation. Plus Concorde (well the BA ones...;) ) were maintained by the best mechanics in the business with all the time in the world. The 787 is a very different kettle of fish line operations wise. IMHO it will be treated like a Ford Transit van compared to the Ferrari 250 GTO that was Concorde.
My worries are the long term issues with an all composite aircraft. If you look at an old AA MD-80 with its shiny bare metal showing a how collection of dents and dings collected over the years. We know how to analyse these dents and how to repair them. Yet we still get instances like the JAL 747 years ago, or the 737 over Hawaii or more recently 737s were repaired sections of fueslage have later let go. How will composite handle this? Will be it be 'obvious' to a chucker/cateringvan driver that the little bump they just gave the aircraft has actually caused a crack/small hole in the composite? Metal would tend to dent and show signs of the damage easily. Will composite?
I guess we will have to wait and see, and I WILL be totally happy to fly on a 787, but I just think we have a higher risk of a Comet scenario than any other aircraft introduced recently. (Even the A380 was fairly tried and tested tech, just BIG).
My worries are the long term issues with an all composite aircraft. If you look at an old AA MD-80 with its shiny bare metal showing a how collection of dents and dings collected over the years. We know how to analyse these dents and how to repair them. Yet we still get instances like the JAL 747 years ago, or the 737 over Hawaii or more recently 737s were repaired sections of fueslage have later let go. How will composite handle this? Will be it be 'obvious' to a chucker/cateringvan driver that the little bump they just gave the aircraft has actually caused a crack/small hole in the composite? Metal would tend to dent and show signs of the damage easily. Will composite?
I guess we will have to wait and see, and I WILL be totally happy to fly on a 787, but I just think we have a higher risk of a Comet scenario than any other aircraft introduced recently. (Even the A380 was fairly tried and tested tech, just BIG).
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