787 How long until a major incident/crash???
Discussion
davepoth said:
AIUI the 787 has inert gas protection for the fuel tanks which will help a lot. Plus this isn't the 40s when people designed planes the way they did because they looked good. Millions of hours of computer structural analysis will have gone into this plane, and it'll likely be a lot stronger than airliners that have gone before it.
Last I heard it was on the Mel list!MitchT said:
Many years ago (probably in an article about the McLaren F1) I read that most supercar manufacturers were still reluctant to use all-composite construction as they believed that there was no proof that carbon fibre would maintain its structural integrity over the long-term and that the layers could gradually de-laminate when exposed to moisture and extremes of temperature. Given that airliners cruise in temperatures below -50C, but land in places as hot as +40C, and encounter all extremes of weather in among, what will the long-term effect be on the 787? I’m sure Boeing have thought about it, but I’d be interested to see the views of anyone here who understands carbon/composite technology such that they can offer an informed insight.
The Harrier GR5/7/9 has retired after 25 odd years of service and they had a composite wing. Not many problems there, they have flown in -50c and operated in 50+c, they have carried massive loads on the wings, operated in saltwater enviroments, taken massive fatigue and g loads.CF and composites are old tech now, the McLaren F1 is what 20 now?
There's no doubt that composites are not just black aluminium, and the airframe manufacturers have indeed gone right back to basics in their processes for buidling aircraft out of composites.
Composites ar eold tech now, if there were problems with moisture, ageing, general robustness they would have come to light by now.
That's not to say there aren't problems in making aeroplanes out of composites, nor that there isn't anything left to learn. Oh no... There will be screw ups involving the use of compsoites, bound to be, but I seriously doubt we'll see an entire generation of commercial aircraft condemned and removed from use.
All the risky stuff with composites was done in defence aircraft years and years ago.
Composites ar eold tech now, if there were problems with moisture, ageing, general robustness they would have come to light by now.
That's not to say there aren't problems in making aeroplanes out of composites, nor that there isn't anything left to learn. Oh no... There will be screw ups involving the use of compsoites, bound to be, but I seriously doubt we'll see an entire generation of commercial aircraft condemned and removed from use.
All the risky stuff with composites was done in defence aircraft years and years ago.
Gwagon111 said:
ETOPS said:
They will make many, and each will have a box called an ADIRU (Air Data Inertial Reference Unit) which houses 6 ring laser gyroscopes.
Meh, ring laser gyros are so last year. 911newbie said:
There's no doubt that composites are not just black aluminium, and the airframe manufacturers have indeed gone right back to basics in their processes for buidling aircraft out of composites.
Composites ar eold tech now, if there were problems with moisture, ageing, general robustness they would have come to light by now.
That's not to say there aren't problems in making aeroplanes out of composites, nor that there isn't anything left to learn. Oh no... There will be screw ups involving the use of compsoites, bound to be, but I seriously doubt we'll see an entire generation of commercial aircraft condemned and removed from use.
All the risky stuff with composites was done in defence aircraft years and years ago.
Yes, but they weren't building huge pressurised fuselages out of composite materials. Pressurisation puts huge stresses on the structure in a totally different way to combat aircraft.Composites ar eold tech now, if there were problems with moisture, ageing, general robustness they would have come to light by now.
That's not to say there aren't problems in making aeroplanes out of composites, nor that there isn't anything left to learn. Oh no... There will be screw ups involving the use of compsoites, bound to be, but I seriously doubt we'll see an entire generation of commercial aircraft condemned and removed from use.
All the risky stuff with composites was done in defence aircraft years and years ago.
I agree that the basics are well sorted, but a pressurised fuselage on a large aircraft that has to be as light and aerodynamic as possible to match the fuel efficiency of the sales pitch is quite a step forward.
The accident report into the Airbus that crashed in New York shortly after 9/11 makes for interesting reading and makes some good points about the structural failure of load bearing composite structures.
eccles said:
911newbie said:
There's no doubt that composites are not just black aluminium, and the airframe manufacturers have indeed gone right back to basics in their processes for buidling aircraft out of composites.
Composites ar eold tech now, if there were problems with moisture, ageing, general robustness they would have come to light by now.
That's not to say there aren't problems in making aeroplanes out of composites, nor that there isn't anything left to learn. Oh no... There will be screw ups involving the use of compsoites, bound to be, but I seriously doubt we'll see an entire generation of commercial aircraft condemned and removed from use.
All the risky stuff with composites was done in defence aircraft years and years ago.
Yes, but they weren't building huge pressurised fuselages out of composite materials. Pressurisation puts huge stresses on the structure in a totally different way to combat aircraft.Composites ar eold tech now, if there were problems with moisture, ageing, general robustness they would have come to light by now.
That's not to say there aren't problems in making aeroplanes out of composites, nor that there isn't anything left to learn. Oh no... There will be screw ups involving the use of compsoites, bound to be, but I seriously doubt we'll see an entire generation of commercial aircraft condemned and removed from use.
All the risky stuff with composites was done in defence aircraft years and years ago.
I agree that the basics are well sorted, but a pressurised fuselage on a large aircraft that has to be as light and aerodynamic as possible to match the fuel efficiency of the sales pitch is quite a step forward.
The accident report into the Airbus that crashed in New York shortly after 9/11 makes for interesting reading and makes some good points about the structural failure of load bearing composite structures.
A phonebox.
Allegedly.
PS Wanna close it down a bit? from that w i k k i reference?
References
^ US Read, Special Report: Flight 587
^ Northeast Intelligence Network, Al Qaeda lists successes since 9/11 on Global Islamic Media; Includes 2001 downing of American Airlines flight 587 that went down over Queens, May 28, 2004
^ "Animations and Videos from Board Meeting". NTSB.
^ ASN Aircraft accident Airbus A300B4-605R N14053 Belle Harbor, NY
^ a b c "NTSB Press Release". October 26, 2004. Accessed December 6, 2005.
^ a b c http://www.alliedpilots.org/Public/Topics/Issues/a...
^ Wald, Matthew L.; Baker, Al (November 19, 2001). "A Workhorse of the Skies, Perhaps With a Deadly Defect". The New York Times. Retrieved April 23, 2010.
^ a b In-Flight Separation of Vertical Stabilizer; American Airlines Flight 587; Airbus Industrie A300-605R, N14053; Belle Harbor, New York; November 12 2001. National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) Aircraft Accident Report NTSB/AAR-04/04 of October 26, 2004.
^ Wald, Matthew L. "Ideas & Trends; For Air Crash Detectives, Seeing Isn't Believing", The New York Times, June 23, 2002. Accessed April 4, 2008. "According to the National Transportation Safety Board, which announced this month that it had gathered 349 eyewitness accounts through interviews or written statements, 52 percent said they saw a fire while the plane was in the air. The largest number (22 percent) said the fire was in the fuselage, but a majority cited other locations, including the left engine, the right engine, the left wing, the right wing or an unspecified engine or wing."
^ FDNY Responds: Flight 587 Crashes in the Rockaways, accessed January 1, 2007.
^ "Pilot error blamed for Flight 587 crash", AP, accessed February 7, 2008.
^ http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/01/27/32...
^ "NTSB footage of takeoff from construction site". ntsb.gov.
^ Irvine, Reed. Accuracy in Media, Rumors about Flight 587, February 6, 2002
^ Boston Globe, "Speculation about Flight 587 Crash Flourishes in Absence of Answers", November 13, 2001
^ Ticin Online, Terrorismo: Canada, accuse ad Al Qaida per aereo caduto a NY, August 28, 2004
^ a b Kephart, Janice L. Testimony before hearing,"Building a Wall Between Friends: Passports to and from Canada?", November 17, 2005[dead link]
^ United States. Congress. House. Committee on the Judiciary. Subcommittee on Immigration, Border Security, and Claims, "The need to implement WHTI to protect U.S. homeland security", 2006. p. 24 of transcripts
^ Bell, Stewart. "The Martyr's Oath",2005. p. 157
^ Bell, Stewart. National Post, Montreal man downed US plane, CSIS told, August 27, 2004
^ Wave of Long Island, Canadian Report Causes AA 587 Stir, September 3, 2004
^ Pipes, Daniel, ElReloj.com, Why did American Airlines 587 Crash?, September 2, 2004
^ Stix, Nicholas. Middle American News, "Did a Bomb Take Down Flight 587?", February 2002
^ a b "Flight 587: final passenger list." Associated Press at The Guardian. Thursday November 15, 2001. Retrieved on May 12, 2010.
^ "Shocked relatives gather at Dominican airport." CNN. November 13, 2001. Retrieved on June 6, 2009.
^ "Airline releases victim list". CNN. November 15, 2001. Retrieved June 6, 2009.
^ a b Younge, Gary. "Flight to the death: Just two months after 9/11, a Queens suburb suffered the second-worst plane crash in US history. Five years on, residents tell Gary Younge, the cause remains worryingly unresolved", The Guardian, November 11, 2006. Accessed January 24, 2008. "On flight 587, myriad immigrant stories of hope foundered. On board was Hilda Yolanda Mayol, 26, a waitress who had escaped from the north tower of the World Trade Center and was heading to the Dominican Republic with her mother and children to take her mind off the trauma."
^ "Second Scythe." Snopes.
^ Olney, Buster. "Epilogue: 'The Last Night of the Yankee Dynasty'." ESPN. May 2, 2005. Retrieved on October 12, 2009.
^ Flight 587 Memorial Dedicated in Rockaways, WNYC, accessed November 16, 2006.
^ "5 years later, a memorial for victims of New York plane crash that killed 265", International Herald Tribune via the Associated Press, November 12, 2006.[dead link]
^ Lee, Trymaine. "Only 4 Coffins, but 265 Victims Are Mourned at Mass in the Bronx", The New York Times, May 7, 2007. Accessed May 7, 2007. "Red roses in hand, about 45 mourners emerged yesterday from a Spanish-language Mass and walked a quarter-mile to a majestic mausoleum at Woodlawn Cemetery in the Bronx.... More than five years after American Airlines Flight 587 crashed in Belle Harbor, Queens, killing 265 people, 889 fragments of human remains were placed in four coffins and finally laid to rest behind a wall of granite last week."
[edit] External links
We'll get there slowly
Allegedly.
PS Wanna close it down a bit? from that w i k k i reference?
References
^ US Read, Special Report: Flight 587
^ Northeast Intelligence Network, Al Qaeda lists successes since 9/11 on Global Islamic Media; Includes 2001 downing of American Airlines flight 587 that went down over Queens, May 28, 2004
^ "Animations and Videos from Board Meeting". NTSB.
^ ASN Aircraft accident Airbus A300B4-605R N14053 Belle Harbor, NY
^ a b c "NTSB Press Release". October 26, 2004. Accessed December 6, 2005.
^ a b c http://www.alliedpilots.org/Public/Topics/Issues/a...
^ Wald, Matthew L.; Baker, Al (November 19, 2001). "A Workhorse of the Skies, Perhaps With a Deadly Defect". The New York Times. Retrieved April 23, 2010.
^ a b In-Flight Separation of Vertical Stabilizer; American Airlines Flight 587; Airbus Industrie A300-605R, N14053; Belle Harbor, New York; November 12 2001. National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) Aircraft Accident Report NTSB/AAR-04/04 of October 26, 2004.
^ Wald, Matthew L. "Ideas & Trends; For Air Crash Detectives, Seeing Isn't Believing", The New York Times, June 23, 2002. Accessed April 4, 2008. "According to the National Transportation Safety Board, which announced this month that it had gathered 349 eyewitness accounts through interviews or written statements, 52 percent said they saw a fire while the plane was in the air. The largest number (22 percent) said the fire was in the fuselage, but a majority cited other locations, including the left engine, the right engine, the left wing, the right wing or an unspecified engine or wing."
^ FDNY Responds: Flight 587 Crashes in the Rockaways, accessed January 1, 2007.
^ "Pilot error blamed for Flight 587 crash", AP, accessed February 7, 2008.
^ http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/01/27/32...
^ "NTSB footage of takeoff from construction site". ntsb.gov.
^ Irvine, Reed. Accuracy in Media, Rumors about Flight 587, February 6, 2002
^ Boston Globe, "Speculation about Flight 587 Crash Flourishes in Absence of Answers", November 13, 2001
^ Ticin Online, Terrorismo: Canada, accuse ad Al Qaida per aereo caduto a NY, August 28, 2004
^ a b Kephart, Janice L. Testimony before hearing,"Building a Wall Between Friends: Passports to and from Canada?", November 17, 2005[dead link]
^ United States. Congress. House. Committee on the Judiciary. Subcommittee on Immigration, Border Security, and Claims, "The need to implement WHTI to protect U.S. homeland security", 2006. p. 24 of transcripts
^ Bell, Stewart. "The Martyr's Oath",2005. p. 157
^ Bell, Stewart. National Post, Montreal man downed US plane, CSIS told, August 27, 2004
^ Wave of Long Island, Canadian Report Causes AA 587 Stir, September 3, 2004
^ Pipes, Daniel, ElReloj.com, Why did American Airlines 587 Crash?, September 2, 2004
^ Stix, Nicholas. Middle American News, "Did a Bomb Take Down Flight 587?", February 2002
^ a b "Flight 587: final passenger list." Associated Press at The Guardian. Thursday November 15, 2001. Retrieved on May 12, 2010.
^ "Shocked relatives gather at Dominican airport." CNN. November 13, 2001. Retrieved on June 6, 2009.
^ "Airline releases victim list". CNN. November 15, 2001. Retrieved June 6, 2009.
^ a b Younge, Gary. "Flight to the death: Just two months after 9/11, a Queens suburb suffered the second-worst plane crash in US history. Five years on, residents tell Gary Younge, the cause remains worryingly unresolved", The Guardian, November 11, 2006. Accessed January 24, 2008. "On flight 587, myriad immigrant stories of hope foundered. On board was Hilda Yolanda Mayol, 26, a waitress who had escaped from the north tower of the World Trade Center and was heading to the Dominican Republic with her mother and children to take her mind off the trauma."
^ "Second Scythe." Snopes.
^ Olney, Buster. "Epilogue: 'The Last Night of the Yankee Dynasty'." ESPN. May 2, 2005. Retrieved on October 12, 2009.
^ Flight 587 Memorial Dedicated in Rockaways, WNYC, accessed November 16, 2006.
^ "5 years later, a memorial for victims of New York plane crash that killed 265", International Herald Tribune via the Associated Press, November 12, 2006.[dead link]
^ Lee, Trymaine. "Only 4 Coffins, but 265 Victims Are Mourned at Mass in the Bronx", The New York Times, May 7, 2007. Accessed May 7, 2007. "Red roses in hand, about 45 mourners emerged yesterday from a Spanish-language Mass and walked a quarter-mile to a majestic mausoleum at Woodlawn Cemetery in the Bronx.... More than five years after American Airlines Flight 587 crashed in Belle Harbor, Queens, killing 265 people, 889 fragments of human remains were placed in four coffins and finally laid to rest behind a wall of granite last week."
[edit] External links
We'll get there slowly
Mojocvh said:
<waves in a feeble fashion at wiki page, clearly in need of assistance>
Blimey, grandad, you'll be wanting me to find your cardigan and slippers for you next....http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2004/AAR0404.pd...
As an aside, one of the aerobatic mates at Waltham was also a captain for a well-known celtic budget carrier, before he got sick of the management's antics and finally went back to flying middle-eastern royals about the place. I remember him telling me that on one occasion he had considerable difficulty in convincing the minimum-hours FO that he should place his feet on the rudder pedals when manually flying the aircraft, the FO in question asserting that rudder inputs were "dangerous".
No, he couldn't quite believe it at first either.
eharding said:
Mojocvh said:
<waves in a feeble fashion at wiki page, clearly in need of assistance>
Blimey, grandad, you'll be wanting me to find your cardigan and slippers for you next....http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2004/AAR0404.pd...
As an aside, one of the aerobatic mates at Waltham was also a captain for a well-known celtic budget carrier, before he got sick of the management's antics and finally went back to flying middle-eastern royals about the place. I remember him telling me that on one occasion he had considerable difficulty in convincing the minimum-hours FO that he should place his feet on the rudder pedals when manually flying the aircraft, the FO in question asserting that rudder inputs were "dangerous".
No, he couldn't quite believe it at first either.
Mind you going full left/right a few times in succession should be left to us groundies at 4AM after a steering motor change!!
Puggit said:
That's pretty damn cool!davepoth said:
AIUI the 787 has inert gas protection for the fuel tanks which will help a lot. Plus this isn't the 40s when people designed planes the way they did because they looked good. Millions of hours of computer structural analysis will have gone into this plane, and it'll likely be a lot stronger than airliners that have gone before it.
Not being picky, but you DO KNOW the reason they made this inerting ststem?And that they applied for it to have a two week deferral in the MEL
Mojocvh said:
davepoth said:
AIUI the 787 has inert gas protection for the fuel tanks which will help a lot. Plus this isn't the 40s when people designed planes the way they did because they looked good. Millions of hours of computer structural analysis will have gone into this plane, and it'll likely be a lot stronger than airliners that have gone before it.
Not being picky, but you DO KNOW the reason they made this inerting ststem?And that they applied for it to have a two week deferral in the MEL
Nice to have, but no reason for it not to be 'MEL-able'.
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